Facilitated 315 W. Ponce Meeting Date Set
Decatur Metro | October 7, 2008
Otis White
The city writes in letting us know “that the facilitated public meeting regarding the redevelopment proposal for 315 W. Ponce de Leon Ave. is scheduled for Wednesday, October 15, 2008 at 6:30 p.m. in the City Commission Meeting Room, Decatur City Hall, 509 N. McDonough Avenue. Otis White will be the facilitator.”
Check out Mr. White’s bio after the jump. Judging from his background, he is no slouch.
Slightly more intriguing is a “7 Big Lessons for Local Governments” article that White penned for Governing magazine, before leaving in January 2006. Lesson 3 is particularly poignant for our city.
Otis White is president of Civic Strategies, Inc., an Atlanta-based firm that helps communities make important decisions. Civic Strategies is best known for its community visioning projects, but it also designs
and manages community leadership summits, civic task forces and planning retreats, and consults with companies on community relations issues.
Otis writes frequently about communities and decision making. From 2002 to 2007, he was a columnist for Governing magazine about urban issues. He has also written for the New York Times and other publications. He has been quoted by newspapers and magazines ranging from the Wall Street Journal to Time magazine and has been a regular commentator on the National Public Radio show, Smart City. He is working on a book about how civic leaders make sweeping changes in communities.
Before starting Civic Strategies, Otis was a journalist and magazine executive. He is a former editor and publisher of Georgia Trend magazine, an award-winning business magazine, and vice president of Trend Magazines, Inc. In 1982, he won the prestigious Alicia Patterson Fellowship, allowing him to spend a year studying how computers were changing work in America.
Otis is a graduate of Columbus State University in Georgia and Columbia University in New York. In his consulting practice, Otis has worked with numerous governments, non-profit organizations and companies, including the University System of Georgia, Georgia Power Co., the Virginia Performing Arts Foundation, the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce, Augusta-Richmond County, GA, the city of Springboro, Ohio, the Iowa State Association of Counties, the Lilly Endowment and AT&T.
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As a longtime fan of Mr. White’s Urban Journal, this makes me very confident of two things:
1. The process will be informed and fair, so the developer should forget about any shenanigans when it comes to what can reasonably be put on the table; and
2. The process will be grounded in reality, so the neighborhood needs to accept that wishing for the unreasonable doesn’t make it suddenly become reasonable. They should do the hard work of achieving a neighborhood consensus, determine the key issues with the potential to impact quality of life, and come to agreement in advance as to what terms they’re willing to accept. They will be far stronger negotiators if they can demonstrate a unified front as opposed to a collection of free spirits operating on self-interest. Some solid voices from the neighborhood have asserted that the NIMBY label is unfair. This will be the chance to prove it.
I’ve lost track of this process. This is a public meeting ? I thought a committee was going to be appointed to represent the neighborhood. Does anyone know the format of this meeting ?
As far as I know its a public meeting, since the note I received essentially said “tell anyone that cares about this meeting.” God knows how many folks will cram themselves into that room. Maybe we should go across the street to the Maloof Auditorium.
As far as a committee…the neighborhood has had one since they started talking to the city and developer, so I’m not sure what you’re referencing.
And as for the format, no clue.
I think he’s great if you’re a city. Decatur isn’t. A pure density guy.
Yes…I always seen Decatur as a giant homogeneous subdivision, established as such in 1823.
“giant homogeneous subdivision”?
Your kidding, right.
I have lived in city limits over 30 years. It has always been a very diverse, densly developed, small city to me. Except for the fringes of City limits which are much more suburban like.
Yes, I am Rick. Yes I am.
It was said with the thickest sarcasm humanly possible.
Well… if you read his stuff he says that the only way for an area to smart grow is to increase density. I disagree. It really depends on what you want.
I also don’t think that Decatur has the population to be called a city yet. But there are a lot of people who seem to want it to move in this direction.
Obviously he’s here to make the people in the neighborhood see reason and admit that this development is really in their best interests. After all he is an expert. I suppose the hood should have a low density person to make the developer see their side but what the heck. Maybe the city would pay for that too. I mean you want to be fair right.
As he says in his columns, one day you’ll look at the city and say, what were they thinking?
[...] there’s the news that the celebrated Otis White of Civic Strategies will sit down with nearby residents and [...]
My belief- if we to avoid global catastrophic changes due to human induced climatic changes (call me Al Gore) we are going to have to move to ever more urban density . On the other hand, as we allow for this, we must demand quality of life concessions from those who most benefit from our allowing density variances. The City Commission should not allow a for profit developer to benefit without concessions like truly afforable housing units for low and moderate income families, and or at a minimum, the amenities mentioned in the Loaf article like bike racks, car-sharing programs such as Zip Car, etc.
Today I heard that developers of a hotel and retail development have made an offer on the 315 West Ponce property.
I am told there is no requirement for zoning as it already has the proper zoning.
The hotel I am told is going to be located on Montgomery with retail on West Ponce. Has anyone heard about this new development?
I guess this is a fall back position for the owners of the land just in case the developers of the apartments do not get zoning.
I for one do not want affordable housing in downtown Decatur. I know the apartment developers have promised not to have any. The sound of apartments there is sounding better everyday.
I don’t know . A small, boutique hotel might be better than 200+ apartments full of Emory students .
( I am sure there are some Emory students who would be wonderful neighbors but overall the college student demographic isn’t a great fit with a quiet , residential neighborhood )
There are apartments in the area…off Ponce on the side of the street with the church playground. Anyone have complaints on them? How do they integrate with the neighborhood? Do they cause a lot of trouble? Do they party at all hours like its 1999?
You know it wont be a small boutique hotel…it’ll be a big one similar (total guess, I have no idea really, but to make the numbers work…) to what’s in town now. If I lived on Montgomery I would MUCH rather have a high end apartment building (with crazy smart Emory/Agnes Scott students and two, if designed well, nice garden spaces) over an in and out at all hours hotel (boutique or not!)
I think the Mongomery property values would suffer more with a hotel fronting them as well.
Didn’t the community fight the initial hotel concept in the first phase of this battle?
This could be an example of the community biting itself in the butt…if..IF this rumor is true.
the end result of the punative process demanded by the shrill NIMBY voices will be running-off all of the good proosals by reasonable developers and being stuck with the worst detritus that is allowed by the current by-right zoning. as an example, please take a look at the horrible affects of the telecom hotels that polute downtown atlanta. if some good will is not put forth by the community, you will get what you deserve – a rotting building or a bad development.
Since Suzie’s comment sounds second-hand, I’ll need some kind of confirmation before I would post.
If it is true, its a big bargaining chip for the developer, since newbie is right…the neighborhood was against a hotel in the original plan and the developer took it out as a “concession”.
If true, another good example of “careful what you ask for”.
For a while now, the neighborhood’s core message has been that the basis for their discontent is that the current proposal requires a parking variance and approval for residential by the Commission, which constitutes some form of “special treatment.” Build to code seemed to be the mantra.
Twenty bucks says that, if this proposal is real and starts moving forward, building to code will suddenly stop being such an acceptable proposition ’round them parts.
I actually saw a site plan and an offer letter from a friends wife who’s husband is bidding the hotel and retail work. It said confidential on the document. Also the parking for the uses is within the code as per the letter. I really do not know anything about it but what I read. Looks real to me. I think it is a price end hotel like the Holiday Inn.
interesting concidence that this information has surfaced just days before the first public meeting about the apartment project……..
Agreed Fifi…its a very interesting coincidence.
OK, I’ve altered my decision to give these comments its own post just yet. As Steve pointed out, the comments contain strange, out of place language about affordable housing…which has nothing to do with a hotel vs. apartments.
Also, Susan first says she “heard” about plans and then she said she “saw” them. Additionally, why would you admit to seeing confidential plans?
Call me paranoid, but I don’t want to be involved in spreading false rumors.
I heard another rumor from a reliable city source who said that the hotel site will include a bowling alley which will replace Suburban Lanes. Will Squash Blossom soon be selling bowling shoes?
Go hotel!!!!! We desperately need a decent hotel in Decatur. The Holiday Inn is terrible and the only way they will improve is if they get some competition. I had no idea that a hotel was a possibility!
A bowling alley would be a good time too… Who knows, maybe the high school could put together a championship bowling team!
Wonder how “Liveable Growth” will respond to this.
Too bad there’s nothing they can do as its allowed per code, as I understand it.
If this ends up being true it really makes my blood boil…The neighborhood cuts off its nose to spite its face.
So far…all rumor and not true hopefully!…instead of an upscale apartment full of smart Emory/Agnes Scott students with ground floor retail we’ll have…
A hotel facing Montgomery, with retail (assuming strip style) facing the CVS strip and a bowling alley!
Hopefully this is just a scare tactic by the developer basically saying “you can have this mixed use shared parking concept…or… this hotel bowling alley with PLEANTY of paking for everyone that I’m allowed to do whether you like it or not”
Despite posts to the contrary, I keep seeing the notion put forth on this blog that the neighborhood was against a hotel. We were never offered the option of considering a hotel in the current or any other “plan” — original, duplicate, scattered, smothered, chunked, diced, or otherwise …
The first I had heard any mention of a hotel concept was when it was reported in the Focus that the developer had pulled the hotel as a “concession” to the neighborhood. That was news to us! Critical thinkers might find it useful to recall who is responsible for publishing the Focus and attach the level of credibility reports found therein as appropriate.
It’s amazingly difficult to shoot yourself or anyone else in the foot with an imaginary gun — just like it’s hard to consider an alternative that was never on the table.
Baron, as is well documented on this site and over at InDecatur, the boutique hotel was an early key component of the plan. Want the links?
Nov. 3, 2007 – Original plan unveiled with hotel mention
January 2, 2008 – Neighborhood resident Duane Truex mentions hotel in first signs of neighborhood concern
January 3, 2008 – Developer writes note that mentions hotel.
The city’s message about pulling the hotel from the plan was in the April 08 Focus.
So….
Is the daily transient population of a hotel better than residents of an upscale apartment?
I really dont think, if i lived on Montgomery, I would want a hotel across from me. The apartments and two garden spaces that come with it seems much more appealing. A hotel is a much more intensive use and, facing Montgomery, would have no buffer between uses. As opposed to an apartment that would help to create somewhat of a buffer between the residental zone and higher intensity use of Ponce de Leon.
If a hotel were to be put on the property, it would need to face Ponce, not internal to the neighborhood.
Oh yah, I’m pretty sure — it’s been a bit since I reviewed the appropriate City code, but I am pretty sure that a bowling alley is one of the things specifically barred from this type of zoning.
See you all on Wednesday.
By code, C2 allows, among other things:
“Bowling alleys, clubs and lodges, billiard parlors, theaters other than drive-in.”
Git yer embroidered team shirts out of storage!
There’s a Simpsons joke here somewhere…
We all heard talk about a Hotel but were never presented with any plans that included one, nor do I recall any specific person that had an objection to a Hotel ( in fact many people seem to think it would have been a great idea). The fact is that a Hotel was not pulled from the plan due to “neighborhood concern” – and if I had to guess I’d say that it was something that was never actually considered but was intended to be a “false concession” if you will.
I will say that the overwhelming feeling I get from the posts here of late is that if you are not happy with the proposed project at 315 than you must be against ALL growth! If these people don’t want this they must want nothing!
I’d like to see the lot at 315 developed and I would be happy to have an appropriate residential development, a nice hotel or both. But I don’t like the current proposal and I think that we can do better. This “you either love this or you must hate Decatur” attitude has kept me from commenting recently – It’s like saying I’m against America because I don’t think the war in Iraq was a good idea… if only things were that simple.
I also tire of the “Well, you better be grateful for this project….they might just stick a Target there!” type threats – if the current proposal were such a great one scare tactics like this would not be necessary.
I don’t think a bowling alley is disallowed for C2 – but I think that bowling alleys (along with several other things) were specifically disallowed at some point in the history of this parcel.
Stacy, I can’t speak for everyone else on this list but, for me personally, my frustration has not resulted from anyone’s opposition to the project. As far as I’m concerned, folks have a right to ensure that their quality of life is not adversely affected by new development.
That said, however, I’ve been very frustrated by the voices of opposition’s failure to articulate what *would* be acceptable. Not by them personally, mind you, but by the coordinated people of the neighborhood. That it’s unacceptable has been made clear, but what has not been made clear is what would be acceptable in its place.
For people beyond the neighborhood to rally to your cause means the neighborhood must present a better alternative. I’ve asked many times on this list what that alternative is, but none has ever been provided. Whether intentional or not, that suggests that shutting down growth is the real goal, despite claims to the contrary.
Thanks for the links, but I’ve got to ask you to read my post again, more carefully this time.
I did not say that the developer never considered the alternative. I said that it was never offered to the neighborhood as an alternative to consider. Your links point to statements from the developer saying they wanted to build a hotel and a neighbor saying the developer wants to build a hotel. They don’t point to a page with a subject line that says “Developer and Neighbors Face Off Over Hotly Contested Hotel” … You won’t find any missing “Film at 11s” on the cutting room floor about it either because we never got to talk about it.
It’s my assessment that they thought about building a hotel originally, but ultimately chucked it in order meet their (what I believe to be overly-aggressive given the development’s context) number of 220 apartments on that parcel and still meet the setback and incline requirements that they have to in order to get anything besides an outhouse built on there.
The only context in which the decision to pull the hotel can be considered a “concession” is one in which the developers conceded the hotel to themselves in exchange for not having to sacrifice their own requirements for density… In that same vein, are we also prepared to call the change of plans from condominiums to apartments a “concession” to the neighborhood as well?
Your characterization that the neighborhood actually considered this hotel concept and rejected it, as far as I have ever been able to determine, is patently FALSE. In point-of-fact, the idea that the neighborhood and developers were able to discuss matters of any real substance is shaky at best — as long as we talked about types of trees or paint colors, it was fine, but try talk about the density or the (in)adequacy of the parking and all of a sudden, talk time was over and it was full-speed ahead to the City process.
Cynics might think that this whole “hotel concession” business was just a red herring. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. Those same cynics have also stated that the City is pushing for the apartments because of the improved tax base of residential and the increased spend at local businesses. In the end, we may never know.
In my personal opinion, there’s a lot of positives for having a nice, reasonably-sized quality hotel near our City center. A hotel running at a decent load average would likely reduce the parking footprint (being close to MARTA) and almost certainly drive dollar traffic to our few-too-many-restaurants more than the apartments would. Hotels usually generate different tax revenue over and above sales tax (100% of which goes to DeKalb County, currently). And, with so many of us already running our 3/2, 1200-1900 sq. ft. homes and condos at capacity, a hotel within walking distance would be a good place for parents and out-of-town guests to stay. It might also be a better match for shared parking with the office tower and surrounding businesses.
All of this would of course have to be designed and balanced within practical constraints of budget, how long it takes to recoup the initial investment, longevity of the development, impact to surrounding neighborhood and City infrastructure, etc..
Of course, that assumes the option was actually presented to the community and placed on the table for consideration, but it wasn’t.
What worries me is that the rumor mill (Per Susan) says its a Holiday Inn type hotel price point…not botique.
but this is all rumor mill…who knows!
Baron, when I responded I recognized that you mentioned the offering of the hotel in the first paragraph, but I read the beginning of the second paragraph (“The first I had heard any mention of a hotel concept was when it was reported in the Focus”) to mean that the hotel concept was first brought up in April. I guess you meant “offering” instead of “concept”? But whatever, I getcha now.
In terms of offering the hotel, I’ll have to take your word for it unless the city or developer wants to argue the point. Unfortunately, I’m just an outsider looking in on this issue, so I must subsist on second-hand info.
But let me just point out that while some here may have been too hasty to label the neighborhood as “NIMBY”, I also get the feeling that the neighborhood is quick to label the city as in the pocket of the developer.
Case in point…Perhaps the Focus quote was just poorly phrased and not an attempt to lie. It reads “Originally the developer proposed constructing a small boutique hotel on the Ponce de Leon side of the building. Because of neighborhood concerns (NOTE that it doesn’t say specifically here what the concern is) the developer dropped those plans and moved some of the residential units to front Ponce de Leon.”
OK, so perhaps instead of the intent of spouting “false concessions” in the Focus, what the city meant was that due to neighborhood concerns, some residential was moved to Ponce and sacrifice of the hotel was just a consequence of that. So, my question to you is, Was some residential moved to front Ponce after neighborhood concerns about density in the rear?
If so, perhaps it was then just poorly phrased, and we all read it incorrectly.
Scott,
I know several residents of our neighborhood have made attempts to discuss our concerns with the developers and have been completely blown off. I have seen no indication that JLB is willing to discuss their current proposal – they don’t seem to feel that they need to.
I can give you my own thoughts:
I’d like to see a smaller number of units and a parking plan that would work without additional enforcement from the city ( the city can’t/won’t really do anything about the current overflow parking from taqueria del sol) – now you may say “but that is a City problem!” and it may be, but to the people living nearby and having the problem the end result is the same. The City is really pushing for this project and I’d like to see them solve some pf the problems we already have before we create any more. I’d like to see the City calcluate the number of units on the actual land they can build on rather than the whole existing lot (which I have to assume will be split at some point anyway) and I’d like to see something better than a 15 year lifespan apartment building go up here. Even if it were a simple matter to get all 1000+ people who signed the petition to agree on what they would like to have – the developer would still have to be willing to make some kind of change and I have seen no indication of that whatsoever at this point.
I think the City needs to sit down and address the types of issues that re going to occur when you have density like this going in next to a residential neighborhood rather than try to fight this out project by project. I think the current proposal is wrong for the 315 property and although I’m sure it’s an attitude you won’t understand – I’d rather have the parking lot than the wrong development.
Thanks, Stacy. That’s probably the clearest articulation of an alternate proposal I’ve seen to date. The opposition should be blessed with more of you.
I have to ask, though, if the neighborhood hasn’t established a shared vision for what would be acceptable, how can you expect any productive negotiation? Just listing various concerns — some partially shared, some maybe not — does little to arrive at any desired outcome. This is not pointing fingers or being accusatory. I’m asking, in all earnestness: Is there a neighborhood strategy for achieving something specific at the negotiating table tomorrow? If so, what outcome would everyone be happy with?
Thanks.
I’m with Stacy. We have enough “15 year” construction in Decatur. The powers that be need to have a little longer vision than 15 years. Maybe we need to change that in the next election cycle.
Bring on the hotel. As long as it’s not another Relax Inn, Decatur would benefit greatly. Many of the people who spend serious money in Decatur are from out of town. Let’s give them a nice place to rest their heads.
Scott,
At this point, I would consider finding that we now have a developer who is willing to negotiate at all a good outcome. We have been trying to talk with them for months with no luck at all.
Scott…right on.
A question for Stacy….”What exactly would you propose/like to see at that site?”
Downtown could answer as well. I know that you have thought about it and said to yourself, “God, it would be so great if there was a _____________ there!”
So…..what is it?
I coompletely agree with Stacy on what makes sense for this property.
I hope the format of the facilitated meeting allows for this type of input along with public reaction to it from the developer and the City.
To my mind, one must take a pretty dim view of things to believe the City is “in the pocket of the developers.” You were at the ZBA hearing, did it feel that way to you? It certainly did not to me! Let’s face it, if that’s really true, what’s the point in any of this — a significant part what makes Decatur all nice and Decatur-y would cease to be.
Whether one might choose to believe it was clunky wording or part of more sinister agenda the overall effect is still the same — many people think it was /our neighborhood/ who put the kibosh on the hotel they wanted… it was not… and that was a point that I felt needed to be made again. See how deftly I worked it in again?
Between the scale of the property, the location and proximity to downtown retail and restaurants, MARTA, and R-60 as well the fact that it’s sporting a big ole honkin’ 10-story class A office tower (now with climate-controlled storage units for rent, by the way), this property is very unique piece of our City. I believe any plans for developing it should receive significant consideration which includes multiple alternatives and a willingness to do something cool with this… most certainly NOT just a single option where the architect’s requirements included a “range” of 218-220 units. My feelings on that “range” from sad to saad.
This can and should be better than what’s been proposed thus far. Maybe Wednesday will bring us one step closer to that goal.
Good points Baron…and the whole hotel phrase-ology thing is probably a good lesson for the city to see how slightly strange wording can quickly misinform the general population.
Thanks for the more substantive conversation. It’s been sorely lacking on this issue for a few months now.
If nothing else, tomorrow will put both parties’ level of flexibility on display for all to see and judge for themselves.
I wonder why Susan is so against affordable housing in the development. Don’t want the likes of me?? Those of us who are single parents would love to be able to live in downtown Decatur, but since we don’t make enough money I guess we aren’t wanted or good enough?
I am quite proud that Decatur already has tons of affordable housing of all types both downtown and in other areas of Decatur proper, and there is more already in the works. If you take the time and effort to look, Eberhardt, you will have no problem finding affordable housing in City of Decatur.