Decatur SAT Scores ’08-’09
Decatur Metro | August 25, 2009 | 12:11 pmThe AJC just posted this list of the top performing high schools in Atlanta metro counties, along with Decatur and Marietta city schools.
Atlanta City Schools, Henry W. Grady High School, 1498
Cherokee County, Creekview High School, 1588
Clayton County, Mount Zion High School, 1329
Cobb County, Walton High School, 1722
Decatur City, Decatur High School, 1577
DeKalb County, Chamblee High School, 1662
Forsyth County, South Forsyth High School, 1622
Fulton County, Northview High School, 1722
Gwinnett County, Brookwood High School, 1625
Marietta City, Marietta High School, 1514
Looking at the AJC’s top 25 Georgia high schools by average SAT score list , it looks like Decatur finished just outside of the top 25, as the lowest high school on the list posted a 1596.
For those of us who aren’t up to date on SAT scores, how should we put these in perspective? I don’t care how we compare to other Georgia systems, none of which are any great shakes, I care about what the scores allow the kids to do in terms of going on after high school. I did a quick internet seach (like in 5 minutes) and here’s what I found:
- Perfect score is 2400
- To get into an Ivy League school, you need around 2250
- To get into a really good state school or non-Ivy, you need at least 1800
- Average for U.S. test takers is 1500
If my quick perusal is accurate, 1577 looks pretty poor. I realize it’s an average and that more kids in Decatur take the SAT than in other school systems. But unless the scores are trendously skewed towards kids getting incredibly low scores, it looks like the Decatur score won’t get you far.
Can someone enlighten us with more recent experience with SAT scores and where they’ll get you?
Meant to say “tremendously”. Obviously my SAT scores have probably sunk a little since high school.
Well my son finished 7th grade with all As and is in Bridges classes, but can’t tell a subject from an object in a sentence and can only multiply using a lattice. So no, I am not surprised if you can’t get far from here.
I do know that there were some good acceptances from last year’s senior class. However, the top few students in even lack luster schools get good college acceptances. I’m afraid that unless you are a super genius in Decatur, you can’t get far b/c it doesn’t appear that much is actually being taught to anyone that can’t teach it to themselves. I keep hearing about some inane computer testing every few weeks (both of my kids complain endlessly about it) and some policy that teachers can’t teach new material until the 7th week of school. I also heard lots of really nice songs over the years about terrific character traits that the kids are learning in multiple languages.
Character education is great and occasional assessment is necessary. However I wonder when the children actually learn stuff like grammar and math? I think my son will have something like five or six standardized tests this year. What is that? 20 or 30 days?
We do have lot of really cool, innovative programs that make administrators’ resumes look good though so at least we can be happy about that. I know that I sound harsh and old fashioned, but it is getting to the point where we seem to jump on every bandwagon and brand name that comes down the pike so, based on my private sector experience, I can come to no other conclusion that maybe someone must have a career list that they need to check off.
I haven’t heard anything to lead me to believe that the roller coaster ride that we have been on for the past six years has done any good. SAT scores in 2009 are significantly lower than they were in 2003.
BTW, I don’t fault the teachers for this at all. We have some top notch teachers in Decatur who could work miracles if we’d leave them alone and trust them to teach the darn content. From what I understand they are doing the best they can given the directives they get from the top.
Well, there’s 31 comments about dogs killing cats and 4 on our relatively low SAT scores
Regarding “directives from the top” – is the conversion of CSD to a charter system expected to allow more local control and flexibility? I understand from the CSD website that this change was approved just a year ago, so there wouldn’t have been too much time to make changes in the classroom, but does anybody have a current update or a perspective on what this will mean?
Also, I am hopeful that the implementation of the IB program will ensure that students have a really rigorous curriculum to follow – I’d be interested to hear thoughts on that as well.
Control from the top seems to be winning over the “local school governance” that a charter system is supposed to accomplish. That may be why CSD did not get the federal funding for new charters that it hoped to get. Retaining a lot of central control is not surprising in any formal organization but disappointing given all the work that has been volunteered by School Leadership Team members.
Completely agree with another poster that CSD has great teachers and that’s what matters the most, more than curriculum labels, school governance labels, even SAT scores.
The only reason I care about SAT scores is so I know what opportunities our CSD graduates have. I saw some great colleges posted on a DHS wall for this year’s graduates. Hopefully that’s not just a few >2350 scorers balancing out a bunch of scores under 1000! But what I don’t know, and want to know, is what happens to the majority of kids who are scoring more like 1500-1600? Since our average is 1577, there’s got to be a lot of those kids graduating–maybe a majority–unless our SAT score distribution looks more like a two-humped camel back than a bell-shaped curve. What kinds of places can they go? I don’t know the SAT game anymore.
Given that there’s a lot of averageness in our family, I like to know what happens to the middle of the roaders.
The SAT is a test of students who intend to go to college, which makes it a fine measure of school performance to a degree, but not a precise one. From what I am told, DHS’s participation rate on the SAT is near 95%-100%, so the average reflects almost every student in the school, even though at least some of those will not pursue a college degree. It is impossible to know how the other schools on that list fare with respect to SAT participation. Here is a cautionary note for anyone wanting to make too much of this measure: Mississippi ranks at the top for SAT scores nationally, with an average this year composite score of 1680–better than everyone save Northview and Walton. This is not, however, an endorsement of Mississippi’s educational system, but the fault of averages.
As for the Charter System, changes in governance don’t seem to affect performance positively or negatively, so the change is more, in effect, a way to get more involvement. The big hit on the SATs and on school performance in general has likely been the flux in the state curriculum than the school system locally.
Hmm. This is disappointing, as was Decatur not being on some list of top high schools that was out a few months ago, maybe in US News. I thought we were paying out the wazoo in taxes here in part to fund what I thought was an excellent school system. Apparently not?
how does having public housing affect (if at all) the scores. The city of Decatur pretty much has the full gammit of housing types and income levels. I am not suggesting that if you live in public housing you are predestened as an individual to have lower scores, but I think there may be a reality of its impact as a whole that does exist.
Does Walton HS have public housing (or even low income housing)? or is it pretty much a district of high middle class folks?
Does income level affect ones SAT scores?
Personally I like living in a real town that has the full range of people and expierences. But with that comes a full range of abilites/motivation/parental support that is very important in the development of students and how the scores will be reflected.
Or, maybe I’m just way off base. I’m no expert for sure!
Do the schools that have high SAT scores teach differently than Decatur?
In the past, commenters have used % of students that participate in the “free and reduced lunch” program to measure the income levels of different school systems. I actually tried to find those yesterday and include them with this post, but they were too hard to locate.
Does anyone know where that document lives?
There is information about eligibility for this program on the Georgia Department of Education’s website that might be what you’re looking for:
http://app3.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/owa/fte_pack_frl001_public.entry_form
Thanks Mel. You rock!
Here are the scores again with the % of free and reduced lunch eligibility in ( )…
Atlanta City Schools, Henry W. Grady High School, 1498 (45.24%)
Cherokee County, Creekview High School, 1588 (11.99%)
Clayton County, Mount Zion High School, 1329 (70.45%)
Cobb County, Walton High School, 1722 (3.08%)
Decatur City, Decatur High School, 1577 (30.38%)
DeKalb County, Chamblee High School, 1662 (36.03%)
Forsyth County, South Forsyth High School, 1622 (8.43%)
Fulton County, Northview High School, 1722 (3.94%)
Gwinnett County, Brookwood High School, 1625 (16.34%)
Marietta City, Marietta High School, 1514 (52.36%)
Interesting tone in these comments so far. Seems the usual DM discussion starts this way, then veers towards the ‘standardized-tests-don’t-measure-anything-useful’ debate before eventually fizzling out. So far it’s just concerns about the scores (which are, IMO, very disappointing) – where are my more open minded, holistic thinking, anti-testing brethern?
Note that I’m not making fun of those folks, as even my severe left-brainness appreciates the need for a liberal arts approach to learning. But Snowflake’s original post should be of great concern to all of us. If our average graduate is scoring well below what it takes to get into UGA or Tech then we can’t consider CSD to be a top-tier education system. This is even more important (and thus the comments sometimes more severe) for Decatur, since our schools are generally regarded as one of our best features.
I don’t think either UGA or Tech considers themselves a destination for “average” students, so I’m not as much concerned with our average (which is influenced in so many ways) as I am whether or not DHS is providing the necessary resources and challenges to those students who need them (at both ends).
Granted it’s all anecdotal but I continue to get good reports from good kids doing well at DHS. That’s not the whole of the issue but it speaks well to my concerns as a parent.
Good point Scott. I didn’t mean to imply that either school was for “average” students (don’t want to ruffle alumni feathers from either place, especially with the amped up emotions of football sesason just around the corner!). I’d like to think that our 50th percentile could get into either school, our 80th could go to an Emory-type school, and our top 5% could waltz into the Ivy of their choice. But perhaps that’s just not realistic.
I get a lot of positive anecdotal evidence as well, which make me feel good about the schools and yet even more concerned when I see hard numbers showing that we aren’t performing as well as other programs here in GA and across the country.
I’m happy to represent the anti-testing brethren! My tendency to value my right-brain over left and my generally average performance on standardized tests makes me a great advocate of slamming you bubble-shaders.
But in all seriousness, I am always suspicious of using a single form of measurement to praise or damn a school system. This applies to SAT scores along with CSD’s mission to be “recognized as a top school system in the country” (by whom and what measurement exactly?)
I know the tricky position that our school officials are in. But it’s these discussions where I wish someone with a big picture view would step in and give us a bit more context. How important are SAT scores to CSD? When they read these comments do they roll their eyes at our myopic focus and then just close their browsers? I’d like to know what they’re thinking…but unfortunately CSD is more tight-lipped than the city commission.
Maybe they want me to email them the question…I’ll try that and get back to you.
Just based on my observations over the years, the BOE and the school administrators are very uncommunicative with tax payers and parents, especially compared to the rest of city government, which seems very open to discussion and comments. I think that is a big problem. It would be nice to hear what these lower scores mean, from those who we are paying to spend our taxes and educate our children. I guess we hear nothing. I would like to be surprised.
fortunately test scores and a family’s financial demographic aren’t the be all, end all. i was from a low income family and was the valedictorian of my h.s. i made an okay SAT score but got into an ivy league school. there is a lot that makes a great kid and college applicant besides these factors and a lot of the colleges know that…they look at a wide range of factors, including grades, activities, geographic diversity, recommendations, essays, etc. at least they did back in the day.
How can anyone consider these scores disappointingly low? Of course we all have high expectations for Decatur Schools, but, really, how can we expect Decatur to have test scores on par with extremely high income areas such as North Fulton and some tony neighborhoods of Cobb and Gwinnett?
There are of course exceptions to the rule, but high educational performance and high family income levels go hand in hand. In systems that have larger percentages of low income students, it means that test scores are generally going to be lower. It doesn’t mean that a kid in a poor family can’t be top in their class, but as a whole poor kids have a bigger challenges in schools than kids in upper income families.
I think that our Decatur Schools do a remarkable job educating our kids and the test results are commendable considering that we ARE NOT North Fulton, and some of our kids come from challenging home situations. It means we have to work harder to make sure that all of our kids are getting an excellent education.
For the record, Northview High School has 4% of kids on free and/or reduced lunch and at Decatur High School 30% of our kids are on free and/or reduced lunch.
I’d like to revive my original query of how to interpret DHS’s average SAT score of 1577. In the old days, a perfect score was 800 on the Verbal SAT and 800 on the Math SAT. People didn’t seem to talk about combined scores much. Some colleges cared more about the Verbal, some about the Math and some about both seperately. If one wanted to go to an Ivy League school, unless one had a special gift like winning the Olympics Slalom Gold or playing the violin at Carnegie Hall, it was best to have both SAT scores be over 700, the closer to 800 the better. For most competitive non-Ivy League schools, both scores needed to be over 600. For good serviceable, but not real competitive schools, one needed both scores to be 500 or better. A Verbal or Math SAT under 500 made it harder to get into a decent school and if both were under 500, community or junior colleges were the main options.
How does one interpret the current combined SAT scores being published? I think I’ve figured out what it takes to go to an Ivy (over 2250) or competitive school (over 1800). But what does a score of 1577 get you? Is it the combined score that’s looked at or the three scores that comprise it? Is it fair to say that 1577/3 = an average of 526 for each component of the SAT so that translates to the low end of the good, serviceable, but not prestigious schools. Is the translation the same as under the old system of SAT scoring? If so, and if it is fair to assume that DHS SAT scores have a normal distribution (vs two-humped or skewed or some other non-bell-shaped distribution), and given a mean score of 1577 (medians and ranges would be so much more useful–why don’t they report these instead?) then it looks to me lke about 45% of DHS SAT test takers will only be eligible for a community/junior college at best, 40% could get into a serviceable, non-competitive schools, 13% into a competitive non-Ivy and 2% into an Ivy.
But I’m not sure if the assumptions about the old SAT test scores and college acceptance apply anymore. Anyone?
Yes, the total should be divided by 3. So our current average is roughly the equivalent of a 1050.
I’ve often felt (and said) that DHS provides a rich, quality education that is not reflected on paper. It does take a lot of parental involvement, but you can coax a good education out of CSD despite the board’s mistakes.
I like that: “…coax a good education out of CSD…”! And as some of you may remember from a few months ago, I maintain that the best way to do that is to ……Bring brownies! (Are they allowed at the SATs?!)
Here is some information to chew on in this conversation:
using the old metric of combining verbal and math (now critical reading and math):
1996 1012
1997 1062
1998 1037
1999 995
2000 1041
2001 1047
2002 1066
2003 1084
2004 1069
2005 1050
2006 1032
2007 1064
2008 1043
2009 1064
I did some rankings taking out any high school were less than 10 students took the test.
Reading: 19th out of 368 GA high schools, top 5%
Math: 44th out of 368 GA high schools, top 12%
Writing (relatively new area): 35th out of 368 GA high schools, top 10%
total: 30th out of 368 GA high schools, top 8%
compare to Druid Hills nearby:
Reading: 52nd, top 14%
Math: 87th, top 24%
Writing: 409th, top 13%
total: 61st, top 17%
Since CSD’s one high school is smaller compared to many other metro Atlanta high schools, the data tends to look mountainous, rather than smoothly sloping either upward or downward (like the nation or GA). notice that 2003 was a high point, not a trend.
***change of topic***
I also saw a reference to CSD not receiving federal charter funding…the situation has nothing to do with CSD’s implementation of a charter system. Rather, the federal DOE is not accepting Georgia’s definition of a system charter, thus not releasing funds to 4 GA charter systems.
What is the difference between what the federal DOE accepts as a system charter and Georgia’s definition of a system charter?
Thomas, many thanks for writing in and giving a bit more context to the numbers.
I put the 1999-2009 data you provided in a basic line graph (because I’m a huge dork) and even though it is very “mountainous” there definitely is an upward trend. I’m not sure we can ask for much more than that.
An earlier post this summer showed the results of college acceptances by 2009 DHS graduates. Included were many, many fine schools. Scores, shmores…..there is alot more to college acceptance than SAT scores. DHS students are sought after by many colleges because of the way our kids are taught, and the community they live in. Other activities and interests are also to be considered. DHS has a higher percentage of lower achieving children who take the SAT whether they truly are college bound or not. The scores are skewered. Our children, and our school are doing extremely well.
The scores are more likely to be skewed than skewered although sometimes I would like to skewer the whole scholastic testing complex.
And BTW, what the heck happened in 1999 with an average SAT dip to 995. Test change? Bomb scare during the SAT? All the test taking whizzes transferred to Paideia?
Agreed; test scores, school grades and no child left behind are really meaningless (to me). The most important thing is how are our children prepared (or not prepared) to make the important decisions they and their community will face in the future.
If you look at the Atlanta Journal numbers… only 131 Decatur kids took the SAT and there were about 175 juniors last year.
So only 75% of our juniors took the SAT. And nearly a quarter of our DHS kids are gifted.
…..And the rest are tall, good-looking, and above average.
Good point about 25% of Decatur kids being labelled as gifted! What happens between elementary school when they evidently test over the 90-95th percentile (depending on the definitions for that second in time) since they are in the gifted program and high school when it seems that they are lucky if they are hitting the 75th percentile of the SAT (1800)? Shouldn’t 25% of our kids be getting 2160 or greater? I guess there could be multiple interpretations of what’s going on. My guess is that too many kids are getting into the gifted program on “creativity”. Or maybe the policy of “once in the gifted program, always in it” doesn’t make sense. Why do we believe that first grade scores should define a child as gifted for the rest of their school years. I really don’t think the discrepancy means that we are failing our gifted children–our teachers seem too good for that.
But 75% taking the SAT is fairly high, it seems. That also needs to be taken into account when interpreting averages.