T-SPLOST: The Final Discussion (Yeah, Right!)
Decatur Metro | July 24, 2012 | 12:39 pm
With the T-SPLOST vote one week away, it’s time for a final, dedicated discussion. Don’t ya think? Leave it all on the field.
Here are a few of links of T-SPLOST overviews and recent discussions on the 1% sales tax to keep the ball rolling…
Overview
- Transportation referendum news [AJC]
- Transportation sales tax vote 2012 [Wikipedia]
- Everything you need to know about T-SPLOST [Atlanta Magazine]
Opinion
- T-SPLOST – A Democrat’s Dilemma [Peach Pundit]
- Reluctantly “No” on T-SPLOST [Peach Pundit]
- Metro Atlanta faces ultimate test [Saporta Report]
Now that you’ve read and considered the information/statements in all of those links, will you vote yes or no next Tuesday?
Pic courtesy of Chad – It’s the EOTS pic that just keeps on giving!!
Yes, I’m voting yes because I’m an infrastructure freak — from the Roman aqueducts to the WPA park projects of the ’30s, infrastructure keeps on giving. And, yes, this is a political pig with no vision and shameless pandering compromise — but, it’s all we’re gonna get in today’s political climate, short of ill-fated high-tech toll roads. And sadly, chances are zilch.
I early voted yesterday–YES!
What do Jim Carrey and Napoleon Dynamite have to do with TSPLOST. Watch
I’m leaning towards voting no. My thinking:
1. Adding infrastructure doesn’t relieve traffic. http://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/aer.101.6.2616
2. Even if it did relieve traffic, I don’t have a traffic problem. I made a choice to pay more for housing that is located closer to job centers, mass transit, and walkable.
3. The people who do have a traffic problem made a choice to pay less for housing. Traffic is the tradeoff they made.
4. This specific bill doesn’t really have anything besides the NE Beltline that will meaningfully help my community of Decatur/Intown Atlanta. The Clifton Corridor is only funded to serve Buckhead/Emory – the Emory/Avondale leg is not funded by this tax. I think the Beltline can and would get done with or without this T-SPLOST.
5. If there is no plan B, then that’s a problem for others, not us. See 2, 3, and 4 above.
On the subject of plan B – the state laws need to be adjusted to allow counties to be free agents and create their own alliances, transportation plans, and sales taxes. Forcing DeKalb to align transportation planning with Fayette is ridiculous, as highlighted by the fact that the NAACP and Tea Party both oppose this plan.
Wow. Good – if not the best – anti argument I’ve seen.
(1) IMO that is a gross over-simplification and over-generalization of how the choice of where they live relative to where they work actually plays out for many people.
(2) The “us vs. them” perspective is one of the big reasons our transportation situation is such a mess.
” IMO that is a gross over-simplification and over-generalization of how the choice of where they live relative to where they work actually plays out for many people”
I agree that it is an over-simplification, but in my experience (30+ years living in the metro area) most people here who have a choice choose the big house and big yard for less money over the closer commute with higher prices per square foot and (sometimes) higher taxes. Even single people often make this choice. Why in the world would anyone choose to live in Cherokee, for example, unless they work there? Because they want the big house and big yard.
Don’t forget that other reason that people moved out to the far-flung suburbs/exurbs. The one no one talks about. I haven’t lived here that long but I’ve read a lot of the history of Atlanta’s transportation problems. How many leaders in Cobb County said, “Crime travels” and voted against MARTA? There’s a part of me that feels like those people got what they deserved but the other, bigger part, thinks that enough is enough of the us vs them. We need to work together on solutions that benefit everyone.
I’ve been here for nearly 30 years and have known lots of people go for the space over all reasonable considerations. For a long time, I’ve felt no sympathy for their commuting woes because they made the choice. Meanwhile, I have been rather aggravated that those people’s choices were contributing to an overall deteriorating traffic situation for everyone.
Things are different now, though. I believe there are plenty of people who would love to live closer in, if they could afford to. Lots of people simply don’t have the option. Also, factor in whatever number of people did make rational choices about home location vis a vis their jobs, and then were forced to change jobs but can’t afford to relocate residences. I have no idea how many people that represents, but I’ll bet it’s more than a handful.
+1 x about 1,000 (to smalltowngal)
I think that there are very few people who can afford to buy in Decatur (and other intown areas). My view is that most people these days are just trying to get by and that often includes a long commute — not by choice but by necessity.
When a fixer-upper costs $250,000 (translation — a quarter of a million dollars), the average family cannot afford it; forget proximity to work, big yards, etc.
And to then say that no one deserves better transit options because we can’t all afford to live ITP is shortsighted and mean spirited.
I’m disappointed in the ‘us vs. them’ attitude that I am seeing here.
“most people these days are just trying to get by and that often includes a long commute — not by choice but by necessity.”
They don’t factor in the in the real cost of the commute in dollars and cents, which has been shown many times to be in the thousands on average, or the time lost that could be spent with their families and friends. What’s the point of having a big house and a big yard if you can’t spend time there?
A lot of people nowadays buy in the ‘burbs not because the house is bigger but because it’s what they can afford. Pretty difficult to get a lender to say, “Yes, we should lend you an additional $100k because getting home in time to have dinner with your kids is worth that.”
“I think that there are very few people who can afford to buy in Decatur (and other intown areas). My view is that most people these days are just trying to get by and that often includes a long commute — not by choice but by necessity.
When a fixer-upper costs $250,000 (translation — a quarter of a million dollars), the average family cannot afford it; forget proximity to work, big yards, etc.”
Maybe so, but what about Tucker, for example, or even unincorporated Decatur? There are plenty of houses for much less than 250K where the commute would be far better than what some people choose. Now, if “fixer-upper” means it doesn’t have an updated kitchen, that’s another matter.
The way it works is this – you have three options:
- Good schools
- Short commute
- Cheap housing
Pick two.
So if I have 2-3 kids and my household income is down 40-50% from 5 years ago, then what are my options?
I don’t know – move further out or downsize?
I fail to see this individual case as a justification for TSPLOST.
Oh, OK. Since we’ve been living in a 1,600 sq ft house and would happily continue if we could, I guess “downsizing” would have to mean reducing our household population. Maybe we could send a couple of the kids to live indefinitely with relatives someplace else. Wonder which ones we should send? Or we could move further out of town and commute 75-90 minutes each way. Man, that would be tough, but I guess it would be what we deserve because we made the choice to live far away from work. Although we didn’t really choose that, it was sort of the only thing we could do. We had actually found a house that was only 15 min from my spouse’s job, but a few months after we settled in, she was laid off. Fortunately, she was able to land another job at the same salary level, but it’s an hour from where we live now and in an area we could never afford.
But would any transportation plan address the issues you are talking about, STG? This plan isn’t going to change that Metro Atlanta is a spread-out, low-density metropolis that has lacked good planning for decades. Maybe since it can be very difficult for some to control their commute time to work, maybe their focus should be on shortening their non-work related commutes to shopping, leisure, etc.
But would any transportation plan address the issues you are talking about, STG? This plan isn’t going to change that Metro Atlanta is a spread-out, low-density metropolis that has lacked good planning for decades. Maybe since it can be very difficult for some to control their commute time to work, maybe their focus should be on shortening their non-work related commutes to shopping, leisure, etc.
Tucker has already been mentioned, making the 75-90 minute thing a bit (much more than a bit, actually) of an exaggeration. If you work downtown or near Emory, your commute would be ten minutes longer from Tucker than it is now from Decatur. You’d actually be closer to some job centers, such as Perimeter, Alpharetta and anywhere in Gwinnett.
brian… I was responding to TeeRuss, whose position is that people with long commutes are simply contending with the consequences of their own choices and that it’s not his problem. I am trying to make the point that choices about where to live and where to work are seldom clear-cut nowadays. At this point, we are all living with the bad choices made by prior generations of planners, legislators, bureaucrats, and home buyers. Yes, our basic layout is low-density sprawl. So where do we go from here? IMO, the us vs. them/not my problem attitude is not only counterproductive but annoying. Like it or not, acknowledge it or not, we’re all in this together. People who think otherwise are living in a mental gated community.
The closest I ever lived to a MARTA station was after first moving to Atlanta. We lived on next to nothing – a $3 Blockbuster rental was a guilty pleasure back then – but we needed MARTA because I didn’t own and couldn’t afford a car.
I admit, we didn’t have children back then – which certainly changes the equation – but in my personal experience there are ways to make transportation work within a very limited budget.
There are obviously more extreme situations, where folks are more tied down than we were – due to family obligations, etc – but does this T-SPLOST really address that?
To DM: I hear the trend is away from home ownership in today’s economy when job security is low and home ownership is not necessarily a good financial investment. I think many young adults and young families will choose frugal rentals intown close to public transit. That might adjust the norm in the right direction. People often don’t mind being frugal, but they hate the thought THEIR family and children are living less well than the others in their peer group. Even intown rentals may become too expensive for many. And the folks who drank the real estate Kool Aid of the early millenium are already stuck wherever they are. No easy answers.
Well first of all I was adopting an old adage in Project Management: you can have low cost, high quality, short duration – pick 2. That same model seems to apply to our choices in where to live.
I’m not sure what your point is about your particular situation.
I don’t care if it’s seen as us vs. them. That doesn’t bother me. I don’t know what common bond I’m supposed to have with people in Powder Springs or Suwanee that will inspire my collectivism to supercede my feeling that this is not a good plan.
Maybe it’s just my own personal experience that is making me biased, but I have to agree with TeeRuss on this one. I know of too many people who have chosen to live further out for the big house when they could have easily afforded a somewhat smaller one much closer in. If the big house wasn’t the main reason then it was to be as far away as possible from people who didn’t look like them. I don’t care about their traffic problems or how much it costs to fill up their tanks. So in a sense it is an “us versus them” thing because my wife and I don’t want to support them in their materialism and prejudices.
brianc, I don’t think you are in agrement with TeeRuss. His posts don’t indicate any condescension toward people who choose to live in the burbs. He is very matter of fact – they made a choice, so they live with it.
People choose to live in the burbs for reasons other than materialism and prejudices. Better schools is an obvious reason. Being near work is another (this may shock you, but there are many, many employers OTP). So, if someone chooses to live near work in a good school district, are they materialistic and prejudiced?
There are tons of 1600sqft houses in Tucker and uninc. n.e. Decatur for under 175k. Hell, there are probably quite a few available for under 100k if you don’t mind putting in some elbow grease.
“So, if someone chooses to live near work in a good school district, are they materialistic and prejudiced?”
No, I wasn’t thinking of such people. As I admitted in my post, my own experience makes me biased in this regard. Maybe it’s a sad comment on my associations over the years, but they’ve had no problem admitting that they want to be as far from black people as possible. Maybe it’s because I’m a white Southerner; they assume I share their prejudices. Plenty have assumed I’m a Republican for that reason.
Re pick two out of three: Given the quality of education in Metro Atlanta, “Good schools” is not an option in many areas. So for many, it’s pick one out of two.
The longer I’m here, the more I think that underinvestment in education is the source of many of Georgia’s problems, past and current. It’s a domino effect. (I used the term “education” instead of “public education” because I’m not sure that our investment in private schools is yielding any better return than our investment in public school, with the exception of a few private schools that most cannot afford, get into, and/or commute to.)
Those areas (such as Tucker and “unincorporated Decatur”) will become more desirable as the equation continues to shift for people. Choosing Decatur over Lilburn would be easy if one could afford it. Choosing Clarkston or Tucker over Lilburn would be less clear-cut — older, smaller house, somewhat shorter commute, but no more walkable and still not easy to hop on MARTA.
“Choosing Clarkston or Tucker over Lilburn would be less clear-cut ”
True, but I’m thinking more of Lawrenceville, or Grayson, or in the other direction Canton or Ballground. Let’s face it, plenty of people are choosing these places because they are “whiter”–for now anyway.
I don’t disagree about that. But my reluctant support of this bill is not motivated by a desire to rescue those people. I don’t care if they’re on the road ’til midnight getting home every night. But we all have to live with the congestion they help create. I thought Atlanta traffic was intolerable when I moved here nearly 30 years ago and it’s gotten much, much worse during that time. We’re never going to solve it without a commitment to transit, and I’m convinced if this bill dies, it’ll be close to a generation before we have another chance.
Even in the “not real” Decatur, a smaller move-in ready home (not totally revamped), can start at $165k for 1 bath and 1000 sqft., Medlock Park & surrounding area homes similar to that are as much as $200-215k. I can’t fault a family with 3 kids for thinking that price and size don’t work. True, when you cross over Memorial that’s another story, but then you have other issues.
A quick check of Zillow shows there are 3br/2bath houses for sale for less than 190k in the 30033 Decatur zip code near Lawrenceville Hwy and I-285. I believe these are in the Lakeside High district, which is well-regarded. Yes, these houses are smaller than what you get further out for the same money, but that’s the tradeoff you have to make.
IMHO, you cannot go by a listing but have to see the house. The lowest priced houses are often unlivable. Someone who doesn’t have the means to buy a house in a good neighborhood also doesn’t have the means to do a massive renovation that goes beyond decor and involves structural improvements and major construction.
I don’t know if you were referring specifically to my post, bus as someone who looked at in that area for potential rental properties, in my experience the houses I mentioned were quite nice, if small. But hey, what ever happened to siblings sharing rooms? I guess people think that’s unacceptable now.
I doubt that folks on a limited housing budget object to kids sharing rooms. Often kids love it. The limitation of many people in one small house is often storage space, not living space. Attics and basements in older Southern homes, if they exist at all, don’t work anywhere near as well for storing clothing and personal goods as they do in the north. The basements are damp and often partial dirt. The attics are hot and steamy and often already converted to a bedroom. I remember looking at new homes when house hunting in Atlanta and thinking “I don’t need that third bedroom but I sure could use that walk-in closet”. Our housing choices have been dictated by what’s been built. And what’s been built is dictated more by what will sell than what is actually an efficient, livable but frugal design.
I started to link to George Carlin’s famous routine about a house being just a place to put your stuff, but I was afraid that might come across as too snarky. Hopefully saying that a complaint about storage space sounds like a too-much-stuff problem rather than a too-little-house problem doesn’t come across as too snarky.
IMHO, kids = stuff. Not necessarily expensive stuff, but lots of it! Case in point–I knew a frugal family that would buy a truckload of disposable diapers at some fabulous discount price from I-don’t-know-where-you-get-that-kind-of-deal. So much for the garage! My hats off to anyone who has figured out how to have an uncluttered house with children. And I do think the reflex response–buy more house, is foolish. But the real estate Kool Aid was real strong out there for awhile. Buy more house. You work hard so you deserve more house. Houses and land are the best investment. Home ownership is a smart tax move. Classy homes have vaulted ceilings, “great” rooms, four bathrooms, huge kitchens with butcher block islands. I will enjoy it if the norm goes back to the size homes that middle class families had in the 1930s-1950s. But not sure we’ll see that soon in Metro Atlanta where development is part of our economy and the consumers are convinced that size of house is more important than commute length, community, and education.
It’s not that it’s unacceptable. And even opposite sex siblings could share rooms really, but there isn’t the need.
I think some parents looking at $190k home as you described, would realize they could double the space for the same price 10 exits up.
I’m not defending moving to the burbs, I never would. But there are some seriously grim financial realities that people with children are facing, that don’t affect child-free people like me, and so I try not to judge them to harshly (except that whole behavior thing of course.)
Also, if we’re going to make it all about “what’s in it for me?”, then have you weighed how much you’ll pay vs. what you’ll get. Decatur’s said it would get around $1 million from T-SPLOST for discretionary use. Plus there’s Decatur’s $10 million for C-Streets improvements, and then there’s the upgrades to College.
Now just calculate what you spend in the metro area in a given year multiply by .01, then multiply by 10 and then judge whether the above + the Beltline – in your case – is worth that investment.
Normally I’m all into a cold, numbers based analysis. But in this case I think #2 covered it – it ain’t broke where I live.
A couple other things I left out that I thought of later:
7. This plan calls for a $500 million interchange for 400@285, right about the same time they will be taking down the toll booths on 400 only a mile or so away. When I think about it, that really pisses me off.
8. Passing this bill will take some of the perceived urgency out of the situation, and people will be like “well we voted in that Untie Atlanta deal, so it’s all taken care of”. Not passing the bill keeps the urgency up among the people. Keeping a plan B alive.
9. This particular bill is wholly the product of our corrupt state legislatures. We need to vote all of them out. I’m not a partisan, but those who support the D’s should understand this is a Republican plan. This failure of a bill could be the catalyst to get some change in the legislature.
I understand all of these arguments, and I’m sympathetic to them. But does anyone really think that Decatur will thrive next to a decaying Atlanta that is losing businesses and jobs to Charlotte or Denver?
Our city has a symbiotic relationship with Atlanta. It’s in our best interests to see Atlanta do well.
And since we breathe the same air, anything that encourages a greener metropolitan area is worth it. I’m not thrilled with the new roads, and would prefer a 100% transit-oriented project list, but that isn’t on the table.
+ 1. I lived in NYC during its nadir and it’s not a pretty picture to live in a decaying city. Certain things like traffic, air quality, crime, flight of vibrant businesses and entertainment, failing utilities, dirt and trash, corruption and fraud, cynicism and hopelessness, cross all socio-economic levels. At some point, there’s no place to hide.
Oh, and I forgot to add disease. IMHO, much of the development of public health in the 19th and 20th centuries wasn’t born out of the goodness of the hearts of the wealthy and in charge, but the realization that infectious diseases didn’t care about who was your daddy, your title, or your net wealth. It got tiresome sending your family out to the country estate to escape the epidemic of the day. And avoiding the disease carriers was tough if you had employees at work or home or drank public water or frequented crowded areas.
How far do you think the Beltline timetable would be pushed back if TSPLOST didn’t pass?
With regards to point number 4 (BeltLine being built w/out the tax) I want to quote a good friend of mine:
“Next Tuesday, July 31, is the 10-county vote on the Transportation Referendum (TSPLOST) that would allow the BeltLine to build 10.2 miles of transit. About 5 miles would be on the old BeltLine rail corridor on the east and west sides of town. The other ~5 miles would be crosstown connections through downtown and Midtown (with links to MARTA stops and the Atlanta Streetcar). These crosstown connections WILL NOT HAPPEN without the Referendum (there is no funding in the foreseeable future). No Referendum means several years tacked onto the build-out of transit. It also likely means limited future federal funding since the U.S. government won’t give money to a region that won’t take care of itself. It would be a huge set-back for our city in terms of staying competitive with similar metropolitan areas.”
No vote here. I am hoping for a 49/51 failure on this vote – show that enough people care so the torch is kept lit for the the next vote in 2 years.
I can’t see how adding more pavement will do anything to alleviate traffic. It just adds an incentive to live further out, contributing more to sprawl that then needs to be maintained. Emory line stations are nice but the folks who will use it are already commuting from far out – won’t do anything for the Clifton congestion. Heavy rail to Gwinnett or bust!
The torch won’t be kept lit; with the party in power and the political climate of this state, it’ll be extinguished quickly even if the margin is slim. They did this vote as a cop-out instead of making tough decisions on, oh, I dunno — raising the gas tax, for instance?
Gwinnett would have to start paying the MARTA sales tax, and I don’t see that starting anytime until after 2020 when the demographics of the voting public (not just the public, the *voting* public) have completely changed.
Here is what my version of a “plan B” would look like:
1. Allow Gwinnett, Cobb, and Clayton to vote on joining MARTA. They begin paying the tax immediately and get bus service while rail is expanded to those areas.
2. Allow DeKalb and Fulton to vote on additional penny for expanding and improving existing transit. This would be a temporary tax. #1 would be permanent.
3. If more roads are needed, the legislature can vote to increase the gas tax.
I think #1 would pass in Clayton.
I think # 2 would pass.
They would have little choice but to pass #3.
I also like the “Plan B” proposed in the Peach Pundit article that is linked to above.
http://www.peachpundit.com/2012/07/23/reluctantly-no-on-t-splost/
Brianc:
I agree with some of your points, but these are not mutually exclusive “alternatives” to the TSPLOST. They can be done at any time and there are reasons why they have not happened and will likely continue to not happen in the future. Past DM discussions are filled with such reasons.
On #1, I guess I don’t understand what you mean about “allowing” Gwinnett, Cobb, and Clayton to approve MARTA. They can do so at any time and have chosen their own transit systems instead.
About #3, good luck. State officials pride themselves, and run for office, based on what they consider to be an accomplishment at having one of the lowest state gas tax rates in the nation. And they continue to refuse to let those monies go to anything but roads and bridges, which puts any significant transit project at a huge disadvantage.
Actually, the state would have to approve those counties holding such binding referendums (someone please correct me if I’m wrong about that). And on #3, my point was that if they wanted more roads they would have to raise the gas tax; I’d be fine if they didn’t and road building was seriously curtailed.
I’m not saying any of what I proposed would actually happen given the current state legislature, but it’s what I’d support.
“They can do so at any time and have chosen their own transit systems instead.”
Clayton lost their system due to budget cuts and has been only partially restored (and if connecting to MARTA they have to pay both the bus fare and the MARTA fare), which is why they would vote to join. The bus systems in Gwinnett and Cobb are very limited. But, it’s true, they probably would not vote for expanding.
Cobb and Gwinnett have both voted to not allow MARTA in their counties. They don’t want it – primarily the crime argument that New Scott raised. The demographics in either county haven’t changed much, so I would expect the same result.
“The demographics in either county haven’t changed much” — Are you sure about that?
I grew up in Lilburn and just visited my old neighborhood last weekend. It has changed to the point that it’s almost unrecognizable.
The demographics of Gwinnett have changed a TON. I will refrain from explaining how my in-laws migration towards the S.C. border demonstrates this.
The demographics in both Cobb and Gwinnett have changed dramatically. The problem is the demographics of the people who actually vote haven’t changed to an equal degree.
I was referring to the voters. Both counties are still run by white Republicans who oppose MARTA expansion, notwithstanding the incresaed diversity in the southern parts of both counties. If you held a vote today, IMO, MARTA would still get defeated in both Cobb and Gwinnett.
….unless the vote was scheduled for a high turnout election that pulls out the sporadic as well as the regular voters, e.g. a Presidential election that happens to be coming up….
You are right. Damn near all of the Republicans will show up just to vote against Obama and MARTA. I don’t think Obama is going to see a repeat of the unprecedented turnout from his last election. But, that is just my opinion.
Does Clark Howard still support T-SPLOST? When I don’t understand a topic enough to decide which group of advocates or opponents have the soundest position, I often rely on an expert that I trust. I used to have a politically active, smart, like-minded lawyer friend who I’d call for the straight scoop on elections for all the obscure non-partisan positions on the County and State ballots. Otherwise my vote for positions I didn’t understand and candidates I had never heard of would have to be determined by eeny-meeny-miney-mo……… But I lost touch with that friend so now Clark Howard is my weathervane when he takes a stand on a particular issue.
Yup, and he’s on the oversight board for it, too.
I don’t think that’s corrrect. I think he has been talked about for the oversight piece but he has said he wouldn’t have the time he thinks is neccessary to devote to it. Also…it’s worth noting that Clark is publicly supporting something that his employer also supports, so take that for what it’s worth.
I’m not sure that I’d assume Clark’s employer has any influence on his position on this. After all, he’s known for his support of sales taxes over any other kind, so I’m not surprised by his support of this one.
*sigh* a teensy piece of me dies every time you say this…
(No offense, Clark Howard! Loved the Zenni tip!)
How come?
He’s a damn fine consumer tips expert and travel planner, but this is not his field of expertise! It’s like you’re saying, “Oh my! This is too much for my little ol’ head to fathom!” Where’s all your usual getrightonit of reading up on and charting every dang thing?!? I would’ve thought for sure you’d have been busy concocting spreadsheets with every conceivable category and tracking every point made in articles and comments by all the smart folks on here, Patch, and Creative Loafing, then coming to your own conclusion of what seems right to you!
…Does this mean that you think folks take all your CSD comments with a grain of salt?I
Hey, that’s a great idea. I should get Clark Howard to weigh in on school issues! Does he have kids? Actually, I read and value certain AJC opinions on education too–e.g. Maureen Downey. And several local folks, especially those with a strong education background of which we have many here in Decatur.
I admit that transportation, urban planning, real estate, housing development, and related areas are not my strong topics and never likely to be. They are beyond my spreadsheet capabilities. So that’s why I find the opinions of strong thinkers who seem to know what they are talking about. What I read about Clark Howard’s opinion seemed knowledgeable to me but I wouldn’t know if he wasn’t! I’ve got a boatload of respect for Fred Boykin too. I’d probably respect the expertise of others on this blog too but I cannot tell who’s who to know which commenter deserves extra consideration. What I have seen on this blog and in the AJC convinces me that this is not an easy voting decision for me. I’ve been a Sierra Club member many times in my life and often agree with the organization’s stances. Not easy for me when the Sierra Club is on the opposite side of an issue from Fred Boykin and Clark Howard! This seems like a rock and a hard place vote. Neither outcome is likely to make my world a whole lot better.
Just because you’re able to hear from or see or attach a real life name to someone, if you don’t know the person, and the person’s not an expert in a field, what gives that person any more credibility than the folks on here who you hear from regularly who’ve clearly given an issue a tremendous amount of thought? What about in the case of experts where you know the person’s real life name, but because of your poor impression of the person, you find it hard to give the person’s expertise much weight? What about when you do know someone and feel like you know exactly who the person is, but come to find out you didn’t really know the person at all?
A name doesn’t make a person. The person’s self does. And the person that you’ll know will be the person that’s revealed to you, whether online or in real life.
…We should all have a dedicated conversation on it sometime.
I don’t go by name until I think I know and respect the ideas and thoughts of the person that goes with that name. Clark Howard seems intelligent, well-read on issues, thoughtful, and good with numbers….so he’s got credibility with me. And I am reading the opinions here too, albeit occasionally skimming the parts that seem to be repeats or I am less interested in. I’m sure that none of us are making judgments and decisions perfectly. But we’re way ahead of the majority who aren’t paying any attention at all, never mind bothering to vote.
Coming full circle, I wonder if CSD is supporting T-SPLOST?
No tellin’…
…but if CSD is talking T-SPLOST, Clark Howard’s name’s just might get a mention there too! :0 )
BTW, are you for or against T-SPLOST and why? Even though you are anonymous here, I feel familiar with your views and work in the community. When I don’t feel knowledgeable enough on a topic to be secure in my own judgment, one strategy I use, among others, is to triangulate from the different respectable opinions around me. (Actually, that would probably be polygonate, not just triangulate.)
The gps device in your purse (iPhone) will keep tabs on your travels and the “governing authorities” will charge you by the mile for use. Fairer than adding a penney tax on every dollar spent.
Considering wonks have been able to calculate down to the dollar what congestion costs people, this is what I would like to see:
-The percentage of state income taxes that goes to transportation and MARTA now from each person, so we could calculate a dollar amount
-And a dollar amount of how much the tax would cost each household based on their spending
If you knew that you were spending $2k on transportation taxes per year, and this were going to cost you an extra $10k on top of the $20k you’re already paying over 10 years, I think many of us would decide that that $20k, was enough. They don’t actually need $10 billion, there’s TONS of of junk worthy of elimnation.
But of course, we have no idea, and they don’t want us to know. Why do you think that is?
Whittle this list down to things that are actually critical, leave off parks, airport lights, and other random things that get is no closer to any congestion relief goal.
Side note:
Why not start collecting/enforcing internet sales tax (pains me to say that!), and bring on the casinos and tax the winnings.
Clearly this is not a perfect plan. However, those hoping that a close vote will lead to some better (ie more transit friendly) solution in the foreseeable future are delusional. This is a messy political comprimise that will cost more than advertised and deliver less than it promises. I strongly support it. It moves the needle forward on infrastructure. I do not think it is to strong to say that a no vote, no matter how well intentioned or rationalized, is a vote for a city and region in decline.
There are also those who hope that a Plan B has less transit. The fact is there is no Plan B – we’d have to start the process over. Plan B is actually status quo.
Plan A
- more roads charged to local sales tax, specifically to fund big, wishlist projects that GDOT cannot afford and the likes of which have drawn criticism (I-85/GA-316)
- $689,000,000 for commuter bus service into Cobb County — don’t expect much of the 650% in contingency funds to be refunded
- bragging rights (in road-builder circles) for a spaghetti stacked interchange re-do costing $450,000,000 plus collector-distributor lanes for $190,000,000 (I-285/GA-400)
- local share allocated by LARP factor, which takes money collected in DeKalb County and gives it to Henry County
- $295,000,000 for 8.5 miles of new, limited-access highway from Mall of Georgia to GA-316
- increased sales tax on grocery sales but not gasoline sales
Steve’s Plan B
- none of these thing
If we do end up with Steve’s Plan B, I will accept that – BUT I believe we can do better.
+1
Like
I don’t trust the governor, the DOT, or the local DeKalb government to spend the money without graft and corruption in the process.
I’ve paid my penny for MARTA for decades. When the other counties catch up with Fulton and DeKalb, we can talk about another penny. Why should I pay a second penny?
Sales taxes are regressive and people are hurting already. Corporations with lobbyists managed to exempt themselves from the sales tax, putting even more of the burden on regular folks.
Taxes never go away. Not in ten years, not ever.
GA 400 tolls. Bald-faced lies from all involved.
So I am voting no.
This is one of the toughest votes I can remember ever facing. But I have decided to vote no for these reasons:
Not enough transit:
I believe that the TSPLOST is in many ways a backdoor way of building roads outside of the gas tax. I think it’s very telling that Deal blocked an automatic increase in the gas tax, but supports this measure. The gas tax can only be used for roads, so let roads be funded by it only.
I believe the road work in this plan would get done if the tax passes, but I have serious questions about whether the transit work would be completed and how its operation would be funded. I’d actually feel better about this aspect if this tax was a permanent one and not scheduled to end in ten years.
Fairness:
The south side of town has been paying the penny for MARTA for decades, and they have a legitimate complaint that they are gaining little increased access to the MARTA rail system. As it stands, portions of Gwinnett, for example, have better access to the rail system than much of south DeKalb or Fulton–and Gwinnett will continue to pay nothing for MARTA operations.
Under the fairness heading I would add that this is a regressive tax.
Finally, though it is not a factor in my vote, it does bug me that much of the big business community that supports this tax has done little, in my opinion, to help find solutions before now. How many of the big downtown offices are paying for MARTA cards for their workers? How many are offering real incentives for car pooling or flexible scheduling? We have had little in the way of a vision for transportation offered by the numerous large corporations based in Atlanta. Aquariums, museums, and stadiums are great, but how about some consideration for the infrastructure that stands behind those things? Paying for ads that support a tax is easy; some real leadership and innovation is called for here.
I know that State of Georgia employees can buy MARTA passes at a discount and are encouraged by policy and lack of suitable office space to telework!
Clean Air Campaign, cleanaircampaign.org, offers cash incentives to commuters who carpool or log a number of commutes by bus, train, bike, and walking each month.
I rack up a $ 10 gift card each month for biking to work downtown. This is rewarding on several levels.
More: http://www.commuterrewards.com/
Working with Georgia Department of Transportation and 1600 businesses…
It would be delusional to think a better version or a plan b materializes in 2 years.
This plan took about 5 years effort by those involved to get it through to completion.
And, while it may be flawed, no plan produced by any political or non-political process
would be any less so. The key players behind this plan are not likely to invest another
several years. So, if this comes back it will need all new players, a new system to create it
and a new plan. Good luck with that.
I’m voting yes. It is not a perfect plan, there are a lot of compromises, some of the priorities are misplaced, I don’t want to vote for it, but I feel I must.
If this is voted down, Atlanta will be signaling to the world that we no longer intend to be competitive with other large metro areas. Our economy will continue to suffer. Atlanta will no longer be considered a world class city. We may be already slipped to that point. It is amazing how far Atlanta has sunk in the 20 years since we got the Olympics. Do you really think that there would be any chance of Atlanta getting the Olympics if we applied now? They’d laugh in our face.
For those of you waiting for a Plan B, there will be none for the next several years. In fact, if you want a Plan B the best thing you could hope for is to pass this plan this year, and hope for a better project list if they decide to renew the TSPLOST in 10 years and have another vote. If we don’t pass this, there will be no movement for the next decade and Atlanta will sink to the level of Detroit or Cleveland.
I’m voting Yes but I’m not thrilled about it. There’s one reason that’s NOT swaying me and that is the whole “dying region” argument. Atlanta has traffic, no doubt, but there are lots of other big, vibrant cities that have traffic as well. Washington DC – ever spend time on the Beltway? Los Angeles, New York City, San Francisco, etc. Traffic happens in places where people want to live. Detroit and Cleveland had/have WAY more working against them than traffic concerns. I still haven’t had anyone give me a specific example of one company that picked Charlotte or Nashville over Atlanta because they didn’t want to deal with traffic. Anyone?
“I still haven’t had anyone give me a specific example of one company that picked Charlotte or Nashville over Atlanta because they didn’t want to deal with traffic. ”
The Metro Atlanta COC can give you a list. Remember, it’s not just big company HQs, it’s incremental growth, like a new warehouse or research group. The smaller ones add up.
Atlanta is a healthy business environment and is still an attractive place for businesses to relocate. Congestion is a positive sign. In the words of the great American philosopher, Yogi Berra, “Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.”
The same Metro Chamber of Commerce has this to say about corporate relocations to Atlanta:
http://www.trulia.com/blog/fredyancy/2012/03/thinking_of_relocating_to_atlanta
http://www.metroatlantachamber.com/content/IntPage.aspx?Id=248&SId=6
I’m not really buying that argument either, New Scott. Not saying there isn’t some truth to it, but I think there are other factors that are more or at least equally important, like the serious damage done to the reputation of APS and the fact that the state of Georgia ranks near the bottom in education. We have also have one of the worst housing markets in the country and I don’t think that has much to do with transportation.
Very valid points and I agree with you. One thing I’d say though, is maybe the housing market IS tied to transportation, or lack of it. If you think about it, in town (ITP) neighborhoods like Decatur have pretty healthy housing markets. It’s the ones out in those far-flung areas that are hurting. I have an employee who lives in a newer development in Acworth. There are only a few houses actually built in her plan and she said there’s no telling when or if new ones will ever be done. So, she has a giant empty field as a neighbor, possibly forever because there’s no demand for housing out there.
This is clearly going to be voted down. The state legislature is going to interpret that as: “the citizens are not willing to pay additional taxes for transportation improvements, period.” They will not recognize the nuance of some “no” voters who want improvements and are willing to pay, but want a better list. Therefore, they have no political incentive to spend any more time on this.
The suburbs are far more opposed to T-SPLOST than the city. Therefore, if (and that’s a huge if) there is to be a Plan B, it will have to be weighted far more in favor of roads in the suburbs than the current list or it will have even less chance of passing than the current list.
This is how it’s going to play out. Just watch.
“Therefore, if (and that’s a huge if) there is to be a Plan B, it will have to be weighted far more in favor of roads in the suburbs than the current list or it will have even less chance of passing than the current list.”
I’m not sure I agree with that. There is a lot of anti-tax fervor in the suburbs which is why there is as much transit in this proposal as there is; the legislature knew they needed transit supporters to have any hope of passing any tax increase.
There’s also a lot more people/votes in the suburbs than the city. They could proably take some of the transit away and it’d still pass in the city. But there’s absolutely zero chance it will ever pass in the suburbs unless they are handed a dream project list.
And the price of the Dream Project List according to the Atlanta Regional Commission’s most recent transportation plan, is $30 Billion.
I don’t understand the argument (in this case of any other) that we should vote for Plan A as there is no plan B. The fact that there isn’t CURRENTLY a better proposal (i.e. Plan B) is not justification to vote for Plan A. If, in your opinion, the costs of Plan A outweight the benefits, vote “No” and keep working towards a better plan.
For example, if Plan A was a 3% tax increase, but included no transit, would you vote for it just because it was the only option and something needs to be done to improve traffic/relieve congestion in metro Atlanta?
To answer your question, I would vote no for the Plan A you mentioned because I think an all roads approach would do more harm than good. The TSPLOST plan is roughly 50-50 roads/transit, so it is a step in the right direction.
To your other point, as others have pointed out, our rural and Republican dominated legislature would take a defeat as a sign that there should be no Plan B. Why risk any more political capital on it. There are probably going to be a couple of Republican incumbents defeated next Tuesday because of their initial support of the TSPLOST. So, I guess the point is – if the TSPLOST doesn’t pass there will be no Plan B.
You are completely correct about the political ramifications if T-SPLOST is defeated – most of the supporters will run and hide. But, I think that only causes a delay. The transportation problems in metro ATL will still be here tomororw and continue to worsen, so at some point we will have to address it.
My argument was admittedly rather black and white. The lack of a Plan B certainly is a factor in evaluating the proposal, and is something I am considering in deciding how to vote. But, based on some of the comments I have seen here and other places, there are many people voting “Yes” solely because “Something has to be done and there is no other option”. I don’t see this as justification for passing any legislation. Keep working on better solutions.
From this morning’s AJC (http://www.ajc.com/news/transportation-referendum/former-gov-roy-barnes-1484011.html):
The regional tax would raise $6.14 billion over a decade for regional transportation projects across metro Atlanta, with another $1 billion going to smaller, local projects.
But it won’t do enough to ease congestion, said Senate Majority Leader Chip Rogers, R-Woodstock, who spoke at the state Capitol in downtown Atlanta on Tuesday.
Rogers led a group of five legislators who vowed to begin work immediately after the vote to prepare another, better solution to the region’s traffic woes. They object to the TSPLOST’s spending on rail projects. They prefer a plan aimed at building and improving roads.
….
State Rep. Ed Setzler, R-Acworth, said the law that created the July 31 referendum allows for the same question to be put before voters again in 2014 should this month’s vote fail. But supporters of this year’s referendum and its project list say it would likely be 2016 before voters could again decide.
That’s not really a Plan B. Sounds like business as usual to me. When has the state legislature ever NOT been focused on building more roads?
I’m leaning toward voting NO. The “fact sheet” over at TrafficTruth.net helped convince me that this particular TSPLOST is a bad idea:
http://www.traffictruth.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/TrafficTruth_TSPLOST_Fact_Sheet_22May12.pdf
See also: http://www.traffictruth.net/index.php/category/in-their-own-words/
I’m against a tax on twinkies and beer paying for transportation.
Pay for transportation with transportation derived revenues – our very low motor fuel tax rates should be increased, perhaps dramatically. Didn’t our Governor freeze the increase that was supposed to take effect in July? Political pandering, that. “See? I’m keeping it cheap for you folks! Don’t pay any attention to my other hand, dipping deeper into your wallet when you go buy new camping equipment, or a bicycle!”
The areas we’re apparently attempting to emulate on the west coast and in the north east have motor fuel taxes far higher than ours. This has 2 impacts – 1, obviously, more sweet revenue to spend on our barely maintained highway system. Hey, maybe we can even paint some stripes on our roads! 2, it frankly reduces consumption – less leisure trips, more use of Transit, perhaps even more of the “oh, hey, maybe I can get a more fuel efficient car next time” thoughts that were more prevalent even last year during the last Great Gas Price Scare. Gas is cheap. Too cheap, if we’re serious about improving our air quality.
The streetcars so desired… The sweet utopian (FREE!) rides in operation in Portland are funded there in part by payroll taxes from businesses in the areas serviced by said streetcars. I dig that idea. It impacts the businesses and individuals most likely benefiting from the very local service provided.
That said, until we move all the way to a plan that includes genuine 3 car monorail, I’m not going for this plan. A monorail is more of a… Shelbyville idea, anyhow.
“The streetcars so desired… The sweet utopian (FREE!) rides in operation in Portland are funded there in part by payroll taxes from businesses in the areas serviced by said streetcars. I dig that idea. It impacts the businesses and individuals most likely benefiting from the very local service provided.”
I definitely agree with the idea of a payroll tax for this purpose.
I’m a fan of Atlanta. I’m voting “YES.”
I’m voting YES for the TSPLOST. I’ve kept up pretty well with how this all came about, how the project list was hammered out and have a fair idea of the politics involved. Given the current state of the legislature, the transit vs. roads supporters that reside in the metro area and the general history of transportation projects and funding over the years, I think this is the best we’re going to get anytime soon!
There is no way an “all roads” or “all transit” project list will pass given the current demographics of the region. This is as close as we are going to get to having a chance to start some transit projects like the Beltline, rail to Emory, bus service to some outer counties, etc. The tax also funds some big road projects. Folks need to remember that these projects had to be on the ARC project list in order to be considered in the first place.
As far as the counties and cities being involved in the projects if the tax passes, GDOT will be in charge of constuction and oversight. There’s no chance of locals getting their fingers in the financial pie (so to speak).
Local and county governments however would receive 15% of the funds to spend on local transportation issues – that’s a big PLUS for me. DeKalb is alreay looking at using much of their 15% on county road repaving and repairs – something they’ve had to forego for years due to lack of funds. Decatur has any number of pedestrian and bicycle projects we could use our share of the 15% on – funds I know there is no way in h#ll we’d ever get out of GDOT or the feds for that matter (now that the 2 year federal highways bill has passed – which totally gutted bike/ped funding including Safe Routes To School and Transportation Enhancement funding).
So, is this a perfect list? Is it a perfect mix? Is it what I really want? No, no and no. But it’s a darn sight better that any other options we have (you really think the state legislature is going to hammer out a Plan B in the near future? Want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn??) and I do not think the Atlanta region can hope to stay competitive with other regions if we don’t start trying to fix this transportation mess we have now.
Here’s a question I’ve been thinking about, one that could apply to other votes besides this one. If a person is truly on the fence about this tax, is it ok simply not to vote? For example, if this plan had all roads in it I’d be actively working against it in addition to voting no. But since I’m just barely on the “no” side, call it 60/40, I’ve considered not voting. Is that bad?
No. The reality is that your vote will make zero difference to the outcome unless it tips the scales in one direction or the other, and the odds of that happening are very, very close to zero.
It’s your vote to send wherever, but this one could be close. It’s just you, the spectre of legal battles, and Brian Kemp’s overreach there in the booth.
I will vote NO on TSPLOST. Why would I vote to tax myself? Our elected officials are pros at increasing our taxes! Why give them any help?
Interesting, and picks up a few reasons why I oppose TSPLOST.
1. The MARTA ridership figures suggest that traffic gridlock is not as big a problem as it is being made out to be because MARTA exists and yet people are not flocking to it to get themselves out of traffic jams. If the roads are pure gridlock why do so many people continue to drive to downtown, midtown, Buckhead, and the airport, all of which are well-served by MARTA? I think that the pleas we hear for more transit emanate more from a desire to engage in social engineering than they do from a genuine desire to relieve congestion.
2. The fact that not all the TSPLOST projects are fully funded through construction means that this “temporary” tax will last forever. See ESPLOST. Once these taxes are authorized, major factions are created that depend upon them and which will campaign incessantly for their continued existence.
3. The “one penny” tax increase is not trivial but is in fact a double-digit percentage increase in the existing sales tax rate. I can’t see how a 9% sales tax rate is going to make Atlanta more competitive. And how many tax increases are we supposed to put up with, anyway? DeKalb and DCSS both recently jacked up takes — the county by over 20%. Major new federal income and investment taxes beckon for 2013. Enough already.
4. TSPLOST is basing much on its revenue projections, the basis for which are not fully disclosed. Keep in mind that we continue to teeter on the edge of another recession, which would almost surely put downward pressure on the tax revenues. If TSPLOST revenues come up short, the campaign for TSPLOST II will start very quickly.
Your points, one by one:
1. The MARTA ridership figures would probably be higher if the access and service was better. But that’s a chicken and egg thing.
2.I’d prefer they go ahead and declare that the tax would be permanent.
3. Agreed.
4. I wonder if they are projecting internet taxes? Those are certainly coming. Or would those only go to the state?
” I wonder if they are projecting internet taxes? Those are certainly coming. Or would those only go to the state?”
Local entities should get their portion of any taxes on internet sales, based upon delivery address of the goods.
I should clarify that on #3 I agree that the tax is not trivial, not necessarily with the rest of the statement.
I would also prefer that they forthrightly admit the tax would be permanent, stop referring to its as a “one-penny” increase, and instead call it a “14 percent increase in sales taxes.” If all that happened, this plan would have no chance of passing.
It’s not permanent. It expires in 10 years by law and any continuation, along with a new list of projects, would have to be voted on then. That’s also in the law.
I understand that the law does not say it is permanent. I am saying that the proponents fully intend for it to be so and are not disclosing that.
They’d have to get the law changed and I’m sue that would cause a big lawsuit. Read Thomas Wheatley’s piece in Creative Loafing, especially about the Legislature’s attitude. I provided a link at the end of the comments.
All excellent points DEM.
On the MARTA ridership figures, you could flip that around and say that there are no real congestion issues along the existing MARTA corridors. The congestion problems are along the top end perimeter, 400, 75, 85, 20 – non MARTA corridors. We can quibble about the downtown connector traffic, but I doubt people are getting on the connector to get from midtown to buckhead or downtown.
It takes me 15 minutes to get from Decatur to Centennial Park at rush hour – how long would that take if MARTA wasn’t carrying a thousand people per hour parallel to me on the tracks?
Again – traffic is not a problem for most of us in Decatur. Traffic is largely a suburban and exurban problem.
Completely agree that Decatur is an excellent location to commute to Downtown and anywhere in the mid- to east side of ITP. I’ve commuted by MARTA and loved every second of it, especially walking to the station and being able to read or knit while traveling. But also have commuted to various ITP locations and found it easy and handy for pre-work and post-work errands. Husband commutes OTP and finds it easy because against traffic. The only area that is a bear to get to from Decatur is the Mt. Paran area. I feel for folks who carpool to the private schools in that area.
I believe that every vote counts and I’ve seen too many local Georgia races where someone lost (or won) by literally a handful of votes.
I think this is going to be a very close vote and not many folks will turn out to begin with (a July election). In that situation (and In my opinion), a non-vote is closer to a “no” vote than a “yes” vote.
I oppose the measure, but I would not dare suggest that not voting is “closer to” voting in favor. Such an offense only increases as the likely margin and turnout decreases.
No no nonononononoononononoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Not one penny more until they fix the zoning and land use issues that caused our sprawl in the first place. Any soothing of road traffic will be immediately compensated by new construction, new density in that area (See N Fulton and Forstyh growth overwhemling GA400 extension before it was even built.) There’s enormous vacancy blight throughout the ‘inner ring’ suburbs. Why enable the continued exurb fight?
Emory area? Seriously? You want to faciliate more density in that once-green neighborhood while nearby dense urban spaces sit vacant?
The beltline? A fantasy. A lovely, idealistic concept, but a fantasy nonetheless.
Vote no! (or stay home)
With all due respect, G Buck, the Beltline is exactly the kind of project we need if we are ever going to reverse the zoning and land use issues that have caused Metro Atlanta’s sprawl. The Beltline is all about zoning and land use – you can already see it in the density that is already developing along the Beltline from Ponce City Market through the Old Fourth Ward – even without the transit component. Just imagine how it will take off with transit in place.
I think everyone will freely admit that the Beltline will not improve the commute for someone commuting in from Marietta or Roswell. However, it will help change the mindset in Atlanta about zoning, land use and transit and help reverse the 50 year trend of sprawl that has led us to this mess.
I agree with your point about adding road capacity. It has never worked. But unless they addressed this issue, the TSPLOST would never have a chance to pass in the 10 county region. People in the suburbs already think that there is too much money going towards transit.
Lastly, regarding density in the Emory area – that ship set sail a long, long time ago. You’ve got a large university, the CDC and a major hospital in an area without access to any major roads, much less an interstate. It is one of the regions largest job centers. If there is any area in the Metro that will benefit from transit that doesn’t already have it, it is the Emory area. Further, if this line is built, and extended to Avondale (as is planned) it will create a vital connection between the east-west line and the north line without having to make the time wasting commute all the way downtown, before headed northward.
The Beltline is no fantasy. It’s going forward whether TSPLOST passes or not. What will change will be the time range. One could argue its funding should have been omitted for that reason, or at least seriously pared. I believe its inclusion is one of the prime reasons TSPLOST will fail to pass.
Here’s details of Wednesday’s exchange between Kasim Reed and John Evans:
http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2012/07/25/your-morning-jolt-kasim-reed-slams-dekalb-naacp-chief-over-tsplost/
Thomas Wheatley at Creative Loafing:
http://clatl.com/gyrobase/stuck/Content?oid=5913831&showFullText=true
Lengthy and detailed chronology and analysis
I remain undecided. But I found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KZfsyZ9VeD8#! amusing and worthy of some consideration.