Free-For-All Friday 3/5/13
Decatur Metro | April 5, 2013Feel free to use this post to make comments and ask questions about local issues not discussed here in the past week.
Comments close on Monday.
Feel free to use this post to make comments and ask questions about local issues not discussed here in the past week.
Comments close on Monday.
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theron wasson
Heather S
AMB
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Keith F
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SteveC
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Daydreamer
would love to see something like this in here
http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/02/21/its-not-fairytale-seattle-build-nations-first-food-forest
What a fantastic idea! We could do mulberries, blackberries, Georgia peach — what else would grow well and follow the ideal of permaculture?
Hey All, Oakhurst Cooperative Preschool is having our 6th annual 5k race on May 4th at 8am. Once again we have Pete the Cat on our shirt. Register at http://www.ocprace.com.
That is all!
For your consideration: A school employee gets arrested on what appears to be your basic get drunk, get stupid, break something charge, seemingly unrelated to their work with kids. A student hears about it, finds the mugshot online, and posts it to Facebook. School officials threaten disciplinary action, up to and including expulsion, if the student doesn’t remove the post (which he/she does). Question: Do school administrators have the need/authority/obligation to control a student’s legal expression (however impetuous) in a forum outside of school? Discuss.
I believe the school officials were out of bounds. The student did not post kiddie porn, someone’s social security number or threats against the president. He posted a legal picture (I believe all arrest records and mug shots are public record; go to mugshots.com for some fun).
The school employee made a mistake, but the student is within his/her right to post a picture that is in the public domain.
P.S. This is just my opinion. I am not an attorney, so I don’t know the legal implications behind that opnion.
Morally, the school administration was way out of line. I would expect them to request the student to remove the post, but threatening disciplinary action crossed the line.
Legally, was it a public or private school?
Public.
Then that poses an interesting constitutional question. On its face, it would appear to violate the 1st Amendment. But, no constitutional rights are absolute, so the school may have this authority.
Now that I am thinking about this more, I have another question. What was the school’s initital response? Did they ask or suggest the post be taken down with the situation esclating from there? Or did the school commence with the demand/threat? I ask only b/c, assuming the school was acting within constitutional boundaries, I have less of a problem with the former. We give the schools, its administration and teachers a tremendous amount of trust every single day, and if they believed the post would be disruptive, if they had first discussed this with the student and parents and the demand/threat was made only as a last resort, then a different analysis may be in order.
IMO school wasn’t entitled to control the student’s expression outside of school. But the situation presented a golden opportunity to help the student understand that “just because you can, doesn’t mean you should,” and a case could be made that the school had an obligation to pursue the teachable moment. Rather than threatening expulsion if the student didn’t remove the post, might have been more constructive to strongly suggest it and, regardless of whether or not the post came down, require the student to sit down with the arrestee (and another school official and a parent) and talk about it. Any student deemed old enough to have a FB account is old enough to engage in face-to-face discussion about exercising privileges and accompanying responsibilities in the real world where there are real consequences for real people.
+1
+1
Well said.
The OP glosses over whether there were discussions with the student and parents first. It is implied that the administration went directly to threats but that may not be the case. Nor do we know if this particular student has any history of discipline problems or specific interaction with this teacher or the administration in general.
When people jump directly to some version of the student’s rights were violated, I would urge them to consider flipping the roles — what if a school staff member posted about something stupid a student did? Would that post be “a forum outside of school”?
Almost everything a student does is part of the community of his school. I bet you that 90% of his Facebook friends are other students in that school. He didn’t post that link for members of his church or his family.
Certainly the incident should be treated as teachable moment before punishment is deemed necessary. But I think the school has a perfect right to expect the student to respect the members of this community, or leave it if he can’t.
Interesting take, unclecharlie. Are you suggesting that the rightness or wrongness of the school’s actions would be conditional to whether or not the student had had discipline problems in the past?
No. I’m saying the rightness or wrongness of the school’s actions is conditional on a whole host of issues, relationships, histories and details that are inherent in the situation beyond what we actually know about it.
I can imagine all kinds of scenarios: Maybe this kid has a history of posting salacious or embarrassing photos or snide, defamatory texts. Maybe this teacher gave him a bad grade or disciplined him for something at some point. Maybe the kid is headed to Harvard and the school is just looking after his interests.
Or maybe this teacher is a drunk and the first three periods of the day in his classes are a waste of time because he’s hung over half the week.
So beyond all those hypotheticals, my problem is with the premise that a posting on Facebook about a teacher in one’s own school is a, “legal expression (however impetuous) in a forum outside of school”. It is not outside of school any more than if the student went to kinkos to make blown up copies of the photo, with whatever clever caption he could compose, and taped them to every computer monitor in the school.
Whose stupid mistake is more deliberate and damaging to the school and its community, the student’s or the teacher’s?
Good point that we don’t know if the school tried other measures first. I don’t think this can be decided by “flipping the roles” though. Students aren’t employed by the school system for starters.
+1. It’s also the parents’ responsibility to teach their kids this lesson.
Most parents (though I would hope all) would see the error in their child’s judgment and ask him/her to take down the post once they were made aware by the school.
Invoking the constitution for the sake of argument doesn’t seem to be the correct parenting decision.
This is more about being a decent human being and treating others respectfully than it is free speech.
This has pretty much been decided:
While the Supreme Court has not spoken on the issue of a school’s authority to regulate out-of-school speech, it has said that schools may limit speech that may “materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.”
http://blogs.findlaw.com/decided/2011/04/schools-can-punish-students-for-off-campus-speech.html
There was another case I can’t find that was about a student holding a banner while not in school that was ruled disruptive in the same way iirc.
Gotta retract the second example – was the kid at a school sanctioned event – BONG HITS FOR JESUS banner – during the Olympic torch relay.
Yes, but there are other cases with similar outcomes. The courts appear to be giving schools fairly broad discretion to determine what could disrupt the school day and the authority to discipline the offenders. The USSC has denied cert on many of these cases where a court has upheld the punishment for the disruptive speech (which indicates they would affirm), but at some point, one or more of these cases will be heard. Like I initially said, it is an interesting constitutional question.
Agreed. Given the current make up of the SC if one gets cert. it’ll go 5-4 for the school Admin pretty easily…
It’s outrageous conduct on the part of the school officials and they should feel ashamed. But they probably don’t. This is reason 2,734 why homeschooling becomes more popular by the day.
I would also add that the correct response to a school official’s demand to control out-of-school speech should be along the lines of “go ___ yourself” as opposed to removing the Facebook post. That’s especially when the post consists of what sounds like public information.
See Ira’s post above.
I did. He links to a Second Circuit opinion, which means that decision applies in a few northeastern states like NY and NJ and PA. It’s not a Supreme Court decision and I think it was wrongly decided. In any case, the speech at issue there explicitly called upon other students to “piss off” the school administration. I might concede that a public call for mass insubordination threatens orderly school operations and can be discliplined. Posting a publicly available mugshot is quite different.
Correction, NY is in the 2d Cir, but not NJ or PA.
While maybe legal, is the kid outing someone like this always constructive or morally/ethically right? I don’t believe it is. Right or wrong, I was taught ‘Discretion is the Better Part of Valor’. While I don’t know what it technically means, I took it as ‘Sleep on it, don’t always leap before you think. Most importantly, don’t be an a**hole just to get noticed.’
While the school probably could have reacted differently, lots of interesting ethical questions for the kid, drunk guy and kid’s parents to think through.
DEM, if you are homeschooling your children, I hope they are being taught better responses to authority than “along the lines of go ___ yourself.”
Seems like the perfect response when an unreasonable government entity puts its entire weight behind an empty threat.
DEM, I am inclined in theory to agree with your mentality. I’m not someone who responds to threats well and I belief ‘go eff yourslef’ would’ve been my response too.
However, with regard to the student in question, let’s just say ‘karma is a bitch.’ That kid better hope he/she doesn’t get caught slippin’ in a public manner.
That’s a real mature parental response. And reason number 2,785 why home schooling isn’t the solution.
No. They do not.
I just had this discussion with my ninth grade classes as part of a Rights and Responsibilities unit. Their conclusions? If anything libelous is posted the school system can demand to take it down. This would include posts within a thread of conversations that might start with a picture that is in public domain and legally published. So lets say the mug shot set off a chain of comments/speculations about the teacher drinking during the school day. Should it then come down? But if it’s just a picture from a public website I can’t see how it meets the Supreme Court definition of significantly disrupting the educational process. And having said all this, as a public school teacher I’m very mindful of my behavior, pictures, and staying away from, um, “moral turpitude.”
Good job, Jake. Did the conversation go beyond “rights” to ideas about defamation and malicious gossip?
As a side note on this topic, the mugshot online thing is a racket that the government seems willing to participate in. Companies post the mugshots and make money by telling people that they have to pay to have them taken down. Often multiple versions are posted by the same company operating under different names and the individual needs to pay multiple sources to get it removed. Moreover, these companies are quite aggressive in gaming Google page rankings to try to get to the top of name searches.
Add to that, getting one’s mugshot taken does not mean that you are actually guilty of anything, only that you were booked.
Total racket…
At UGA orientation, Campus Police are adamant that if you get arrested for DUI there are people trolling the online arrest records who post them every day, and that a DUI stays on your record basically forever. I’ve never heard of any way to have online records removed. Pretty sure how I feel about the administration wanting the teacher to get a break. How about the teacher’s behavior being the disruption vs. some student making the information more widely available?
+1
glockenspieler:
Good point. A mug shot only means someone was arrested, not found guilty.
One your first comment, you should look into the use of private companies running probation services and their collection of fines on behalf of the court system, and the very high “fees” they also collect.
For morning carpool I’m not sure which is worse the driver who slows down to talk to everyone while cars backed up behind her or the parents in such a hurry that they open the door and let their kid run out in the middle of the street?
Equally abhorrent.
IMHO, it is the latter which is worse. Chatting may make some more students tardy, but there may be important information that is passed on or gained in the conversation. Letting your child out in the middle of the road endangers your child and adds a driving hazard for everyone else.
Clearly spoken by the person holding everyone else up. Yes, the information you are giving or receiving is far more important than anything the 12 people behind you have going on in their lives. If the first person was more considerate, the latter people wouldn’t be letting their kids off in the middle of the street.
The lady behind me might be having contractions or the stomach flu, but at least I’m all caught on my Dancing with the Stars gossip!
Yeah, there is no information other than “there is a zombie invasion! RUN!” that is more important than holding up the entire line. That is so self-important I can even get my head around it.
I would think the advice for a zombie invasion would be to lock your doors and roll up your windows! Oh, and don’t let your kid out of the car to go to school, the principal is a Zombie! I guess I was thinking more of just saying hi, inquiring after sick family members or play date details, asking about a PTA or school board issue. That sort of stuff. Yes, when I’m in a hurry, people like myself annoy me too. Usually, I try to slow myself down and relax. Seriously, that’s why I tried to walk my kids to school and why we moved to Decatur in the first place.
That’s great for you and great you have time for such. But that doesn’t give you the right to hold up the line, make people late and pretty much throw the system that these carpool lines need to work. It’s rude, entitled and very UN-Decatur.
LOL! You got me. I’m sure I have made your children tardy. I apologize. Next time I’ll let my children out Navy Seal 40/40 style. Rolling at 40 miles an hour 40 feet from the sidewalk. (Note, this is a joke).
Remind them to tuck and roll.
What’s probably worse than both are the parents who have their kids so locked into the TV show on the seat cushion in front of them that they WON’T get out of the car.
Or that they need to watch television/movies during the 2-3 minutes it takes them to drive to school.
I think I have reached my point with the robberies! After the Wahoo incident and a worker getting hurt- something needs to be done- now! People are going to stop walking downtown and around their neighborhoods and soon things will fall apart- then there will be no reason to worry about schools or your house value. 5 in a short time is frustrating!
Unless they are particularly stupid and leave behind evidence/fingerprints or use a stolen card, what can police actually do to catch them way post-robbery? Maybe near by cameras caught a getaway car, or a reward could be offered, but so far after, doesn’t seem likely anything would turn up. But you never know. Now getting more proactive as a deterrent is another story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Academy_4:_Citizens_on_Patrol
I loved those movies! I really need to have an 80s flashback movie day the next rainy Saturday. Police Academy, Ferris Buellers Day Off, DIRTY DANCING, BEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME!!!!, Back to the Future, what else?
For those areas where the city has installed a robust WiFi network, the cost of installing security cameras is way down. A camera can just be plugged into the power from a lightpost and then networked via WiFi. This is one resource that we can provide the police to help them solve crimes.
Criminals have now identified Decatur as a soft target with plenty of money. Anything we can do to raise the risk of getting caught in an armed robbery has to help.
I’m doing my part.
Do you have the new CCW yet? I just renewed mine, and I’m amused by the huge font that says “GEORGIA WEAPONS CARRY LICENSE.”
Actually, I had jury duty (first time ever) a few weeks ago and took advantage of being at the courthouse to renew since it lapses in May. Haven’t received the new card as of yet. Renewing brought back a funny memory. I have a picture of my wife standing in front of a sign holding our marriage license: Marriage and Pistol Licenses. Just love that the same office in the courthouse is for those two things.
Since we’re sharing pet peeves and maybe City officials read this blog…
My peeve is the fact that Decatur’s lovely but nasty outdoor eating areas, aka sidewalks, are not cleaned each day. I have been to Italy (hosed down each day) and to Seaside FL (same thing). I Googled and found this ordinance from Newport Beach: “At the end of each business day, establishments are required to clean (sweep and wash) the entire sidewalk in and around the outdoor dining area and remove debris to a closed receptacle.” They even stipulate washing the umbrellas twice a year. Starbucks along Ponce is particularly gross. And the Sycamore row of restaurants actually gets sticky. Marta seems to pressure wash its plaza. I’ve seen them late in the night. Seems the establishments could pool funds and get some high school students to have a summer job.
I’m a big supporter of sidewalk dining but this suggestion is dead on. In essence, sidewalk dining allows restaurants additional floor space without the expense. Yes, it’s in the city’s interest to allow it because it contributes to atmosphere which contributes to destination appeal which carries an economic value but that, in and of itself, does not seem to be a fair exchange.
Cleanliness and upkeep in exchange for citizen-funded serving space seems more reasonable.
Seems like a pretty obvious request. Any thoughts as to why it hasn’t been implemented previously? Maybe I should reach out to Lyn or she can chime in here.
I think you should reach out. This is a great idea.
Done and done. I’ll report back.
Agree with the theory, but in practice…put yourself in the shoes of the business owner in this situation. While not City of Decatur, Manuel’s Tavern has nearly been run out of business by escalating operating costs, principal among them being insane water bills.
Yes, but water bills in the City of Atlanta are a whole different (outrageous) issue.
Yeah, but a lot of people in DeKalb County have faced similar issues.
It really all comes down to the definition of “clean.” Sec. 86-2 or city code already requires business owners to keep adjacent sidewalks “clean and free of papers, cups and waste of any kind.”
Maybe we just need to be more explicit in what is and isn’t acceptable?
This could easily be taken care of without government regulation. Restaurants with outdoor dining areas should clean them each night, doing more than just the bare minimum making sure the area outside their establishment it is clean and presentable for the next day. Not a burden, in my opinion. It’s only when businesses don’t do their part that government is called upon to step in.
You are not alone. It is often disgraceful how little respect is given to a public space being used by a private organization.
I don’t think it’s too early to remind people that the “Gardens of Eating” Decatur Garden Tour will be held on Saturday, April 27, and Sunday, April 28.
Advance tickets are available on line at http://www.decaturgardentour.com and at Intown Ace and 17 Steps for $20. 15 gardens will celebrate combinations of herb, vegetable and flower gardens in Decatur, Winnona Park and Oakhurst from10-5 on Saturday and 12-5 on Sunday. RoseHill garden will also be open Saturday evening 7-9 with refreshments, music and candlelight.
Volunteer opportunities are also available. Sign up for 2.5 hour shift at and receive a complementary ticket to tour the gardens.
Heard on the radio this AM about a bar (in Brooklyn?) that always turns all TVs to “Mad Men” when it’s on. Anybody know of a watering hole around here that does so? Cut off my satellite service several months ago and haven’t missed it, but am starting to experience unanticipated anxiety as the MM season opener is upon us. Have never missed an episode of MM before — was intrigued by the advance press and hooked from the get-go.
McGowan’s had a Walking Dead night for the second half of the season, which just ended. I think there was a decent fairly regular turnout. Maybe they would do a MM night?
I live at the corner of Fairview and Montgomery and I was wondering about the 315 apartment building, does anyone know how many apartments will be in the new place? I’ve heard estimates go up and down over time based on the articles and listserv posts I’ve read.
Also, is there some algorithm that city planners use to estimate the optimal number of apartments per square mile for a city like Decatur? Three hundred apartments seems like a lot to me for that space, but I’m not an expert on city planning, so it could be less than ideal or more than ideal for all I know.
While there are potentially zoning restriction on density (units per acre), the number of units that go on a property zoned for multifamily development is generally driven by economics. That is, the developer will need to put in enough units to get to a revenue level that will cover the cost of the land purchase, building construction, and operation costs. Plus remember, this is a capitalist country – the developer will take a fee to cover their time, trouble and risk. If the regulations don’t allow enough units to be built to cover the costs (typically the land cost is the deciding factor) the land will stay empty. If they can get enough units to make a profit and the market will fill them up (the risky part) then they will build. Over simplified – but my best answer and can be added to.
Dear Decatur,
Thank you so much for teaching me and Dude all about life and living in a vibrant, involved, walkable, wonderful city. We been the happiest of newlyweds here, and will always keep a special place in our hearts for you. You’ve prepared us for our big journey out West this August–Portland here we come!
Love,
Fernie and DudeinDecatur
Damnit! Decatur is like a farm-team for the Portlandia big leagues! Or maybe we’re double-A, Asheville is triple-A and Portland is the majors.
Too funny, that’s pretty much exactly what we think! We will be around for a few more months, as DM said the job market is not the best there and it behooves me to work out a project at my current job. It’s a 5 year dream for us though, so we’re taking the plunge!
ha! farm leagues for the citizens and fantasy restaurant leagues for the eats with decatur and asheville!
More employment opportunities around Decatur though. According to Portlandia, Isn’t Portland where young people go to retire?
Stay in touch Fernie and Dude! Send us some excellent Eye on the Street pics once you’re there!
Any news from The Imperial folks regarding opening? Was posted on FB page early 2013 been dead as a door nail regarding any construction since Fall of 2012? Thirsty Mead Rd. residents
Really Chai Pani? A 68 food health rating? Get it together so I can enjoy your food again. Cause right now-barf.
Indian food is like barbecue. Just barely passing is optimal. Over 85 and I start to worry. 95-100 and there’s no chance in the world it’s going to be any good
Another call from Margaritaville to bring back the edit function. Meant to post this under my “real” name, not as Warren’s cousin. Doh! Time to pop a top…
Yikes! Really? I love their food, but that scares me.
The food is spicy enough to kill anything out of the Ganges. It’s the insane noise level that I find intolerable. It is an absolutely perfect acoustical nightmare — the only thing they forgot was to use cymbals for server trays.
Sorry AMB, it’s never pleasant to read those scores. But have you ever worked in the restaurant industry? The sad truth is that if you would prefer a perfectly clean back-house environment where health code violations aren’t broken on a semi-regular basis, eat at home. You wouldn’t go back to even the nicest restaurants if you hung out in the back of the house for a few nights.
“if you would prefer a perfectly clean back-house environment where health code violations aren’t broken on a semi-regular basis, eat at home.” Ha! Not at my home. Take a look at what they inspect for, then think how your own home kitchen would score.
Again, please take the time to find out WHY they have this score. It may be something totally unrelated to food prep areas. One bad health score is not as bad as you might think.
i just ate there yesterday and they had a score of 100…saw it with my own peepers!
Another example of what I’ve explained time and again: When you see a low score like that, give it 1 – 2 weeks, and 99% of the time the score will bounce back to near 90 – 100%. This is because anything below a 70, I believe, triggers a chance to address the identified issues followed by an immediate re-evaluation, whereas if you got, say, a 81, you’d be stuck with it for a year. So many restaurants actually request a lower score as a courtesy so they can get that immediate re-evaluation and get their score back up.
Ate there yesterday. It was delicious. I’m still alive to write this. I’ll be back!
Anyone have a recommendation for a trustworthy HVAC company / person to service our units? Thanks in advance.
We are fond of Moncrief and have recommended them to several neighbors with good results as well.
Wes Cardell
eNsphere Services, LLC
678.283.3186
wes is excellent and lives in oakhurst…i highly recommend him!
Yeah, and if you have trouble with Wes, I can show you where he lives.
We have used Jim Cronin and his crew at Decatur Air Conditioning and Heating for a dozen years, always with very good results.
http://www.decaturair.com/about-us/
Hilton Service Co. Owner is a great guy who lives in Decatur. 404-641-1059.
For over ten years I’ve kept a contract with Superior Indoor Comfort. First at a home in Canton and now for our home in Decatur. They’ve always treated me right and been very professional.
You can always service your own unit. I swear you won’t go blind.
I ran into a contractor today who is working on the YDFM expansion project. From the conversation I learned they are hoping to break ground in 8-10 months and complete the project within 18 months. The new facility should be approx. 450,000 square feet. The owner has been traveling the world looking for good ideas to implement, hence the introduction of the new larger red rolling bins now. The old facility will be turned into just a food production space to feed the market with a bakery, coffee roaster, etc. And I think they plan on having two new entrances for cars. Not sure how much of this is news, but wanted to pass it along.
I do like the new red rolling bins at YDFM with one caveat. Be careful not to overload the bin. They cannot leave the store so one must be able to tote the larger quantity of items purchased.
I saw a parent put their child in the red bin the last time I was there. Perhaps they should come with instructions on what they are supposed to be used for.
“Perhaps they should come with instructions on what they are supposed to be used for.” — The bins or the children?
HA! Both!
The wife and I were wondering if DM readers would share their favorite local Asian restaurants with us. By local I mean in and around Decatur, not Buford Hwy, etc.
We don’t need anything fancy. We used to love Jin Jin, and our weekly take-out ritual was devastated when Thai Garlic closed. But we’re tired of Noodle and need something both good and close. Any suggestions? Anyone ever try Pyng Ho on Clairmont?
I like SoBa in East Atlanta Village for Vietnamese food.
Pyng Ho is good. Stuck in the early 1990s – nothing out of the ordinary. But good, generally better than other American Chinese places. I also like Siam on the square. Again, not super special, but good curry, etc.
We liked Pyng Ho for a while, but it is VERY overpriced for both the quality and the quantity. After a lackluster recent order we kicked them to the curb and went back to Golden Buddha for delivery, which again, is nothing exceptional, but the price/portion ratio is vastly better. They do a good chow fun, ma po tofu, and a few other dishes that are must-haves on my Chinese takeout checklist but not all Chinese places do.
If you liked Thai Garlic, give Green Ginger a try. Same sorta pan-Asian schtick (I still don’t understand how Thai and sushi intersect…). Not authentic, but sometimes it’s just nice to have a big bowl of random curry with your choice of noodles, veggies and protein. Also, they use the Eat24 online ordering system, which is pretty nifty if you’ve never tried it.
Hopefully you don’t need me to tell you that Decatur is more or less the epicenter of Indian dining in Atlanta. And that was before we added Chai Pani downtown.
I do think we’re light on Vietnamese, which is my favorite Asian cuisine. Saigon Cafe is good in a pinch (aka when I’m too lazy to drive to BuHi). Haven’t tried SoBa yet, so I need to get on that. Wish we had a good banh mi or pho joint on the square.
Also missing is a good ramen-ya. I know Sushi Avenue has started offering it, but haven’t tried it.
The most exciting news in Asian dining in Decatur was announced last week with the coming of Big Boss Chinese, from rockstar chef Guy Wong. Soon, Decatur will have dim sum, perhaps saving me the drive to Royal China in Chamblee.
I might be in the minority, but we actually like Hot Wok in Suburban Plaza for price and convenience (take out only). I keep the menu in the car and if we’re 15 min away on 285, give them a call.
Kids die for orange beef. You can also watch the action, so nothing mysterious happening in the kitchen. Not sure what their fate will be with Wal Mart.
If we want the real deal, we head to Buford Hwy.
I liked Garlic, but I love Green Ginger and they deliver.
Mint2 at Clairmont and N. Decatur is great.
A bit random, but does anyone know of a good brick mason / mortar company. I need to have some repointing done on a fairly old wall, so need someone able to do a good job of matching the old mortar color.
Jelly Belly Tour Bus at Greene’s Fine Foods – THIS Saturday (4/6) from 12 to 4
Free samples, prizes, and games.
Hope you can make it!
Cheers!
Oh, sweet!
Tee hee…I just made a pun. And yes, it takes very little to amuse me.
When I lived in Illinois I was near a Jelly Belly facility and their outlet sold the not so pretty Jelly Belly seconds. Some were shaped badly, many were stuck together, but they still tasted awesome. They put them in a simple bag and labelled them as “Belly Flops.” Loved it!
Did anyone happen to find a men’s silver ring with engraving on the inside on April 2nd between 246 and Maxim Barbary? It has hig sentimental value and a significant reward. Please post if found. Thanks.
Does the engraving appear only when the ring is exposed to fire?
Can anyone here shed any light on why the annexed DeVry campus is not being considered as a viable alternative to our soon to be overcrowded school situation? It seems like a no-brainer to consider moving the High School out there and the Middle School to the High School campus.
Cost of the property?
At the last School Board meeting the Board said that the property was 15 million dollars. Considering what they are going to ask for in November seems like a real good deal.
But it would require the costs of building an entire school and stadium, plus the 15 million in land cost, right? Wouldn’t that still come out as more than the proposed additions to current schools? What am I missing?
DeVry was already a school. I imagine the classrooms should be plentiful and that the immediate changes would be minimal. The High School could finally build a full stadium with a track like they always wanted. Seems like a win-win.
Guessing the renovations would need to be more extensive than you think.
I understand the DeVry is not ideal without some work but it would lock up enough land for our school system to handle all of the projections. Lack of suitable land is a big problem for our school system and the Callaway site is already promised. The DeVry campus would give the school system two large parcels. History is important but DeVry is not that far and we would still be using the historic campus.
DeVry is barely inside the city limits. And if you move the school, then what are you going to do with the land that’s there.
I’m sorry, but we don’t need a big hole in the middle of our city. And it’s not like we’re adding thousands of students.
The high school has accomodated many more students in its time, if I’m not mistaken.
I would suggest that the Middle School go where the High School campus is now. I don’t want hole in the middle of town either. Land for schools is at a premium in this city. What do you suggest?
Leaving the school where it is. It is nowhere near capacity. DHS was a much bigger school in the 60s and 70s.
Again, it’s not like there are 2500 students like those monstrous OTP schools. There is no reason to move the school, especially since it is not busting at the seams.
Bulldog, do you realize the CSD want about 60 million dollars from us to make the current High and Middle schools work? Things are going to change one way or another. Are you okay with paying that much for the schools to stay where they are? Sounds like enough money to explore other possibilities to me. Feel free to disagree, I am just asking about options.
No brainer? For who?
All this talk about density and you want to move the school and its history outside away from the city center? Makes no sense.
That’s a bit ridiculous, if you ask me.
Keep the school where it is. If you want to build, build on the Callaway building space instead of putting in more residential units. Or expand into the upper parking lot of the high school. But moving the high school doesn’t make any sense.
Karen, I had exactly the same thought, and expressed it in another thread. I frankly would rather move the schools into already-built campuses than fork out nearly $60M to build something from the ground up. If Decatur truly wants to make a name for itself as a sustainable city, it needs to put its money where its mouth is. I highly doubt that DeVry parcel is going to attract the attention of some developer who’ll make it into a live/work/play site. It’s a school with a huge, lovely campus; we need a bigger high school (for these growing throngs of elementary kids who’re eventually going to reach high school age) and a new middle school (from what we’re told). Unless there are issues with the property that we just don’t know about, it makes far more sense to use the resources at hand.
How do we know that it will accommodate our needs? Are there enough classrooms? Will they all fit 20-30 teens? I don’t have any idea what this campus looks like, but I’m thinking it’s DeVry, not exactly moving into Harvard’s former digs. Think about what it likely doesn’t have – full cafeteria, band room, music room, theater, gym, fields, etc. It’s been empty for many years now and will likely need an upgrade in many respects. I can see the $$ adding up quick. Not sure any public school -particularly a high school, with all the specialized programs, could just pick up and move right in. That doesn’t mean old DeVry shouldn’t be an option to accommodate growth, but I just don’t think it’s simple or feasible to think that DHS could just scoot right on over and not incur costs similar to what they’re talking about now.
Without the answers to the points to you raise, how can you be so prepared to shoot it down? It’s there, t’s empty, and there’s no harm in exploring possibilities.
I don’t know the answers any more than Karen or Cuba, who seemed to be ready to move in, sight unseen.
“Ready to move in, sight unseen”? That’s a bit of a stretch, WB. I/we (pardon me, Karen, for speaking for you) were merely proposing that it’d be a smart move for the City to check out those possibilities first, before taking the $60M leap. It’s the very least they could do, given what’s at stake. And that campus is HUGE– much larger than what DHS sits on now. I believe I read (on this blog, actually) that it’s at least 23 acres. (DM, correct me if I’m wrong…) I’m not a freak for sustainability, but I do think we should practice what we preach, especially when it comes to spending our $$. I don’t know about you, but it worries me when I see such profligate spending projects tossed about by the City/CSD as if it should be a foregone conclusion that this is the only way.
I really do dread getting into this discussion, but what the hell. The high school I graduated from in Pennsylvania was pretty much in the same situation as the DeVry campus a few years before I started there. I have no idea if this property would be useful for CSD but I damn sure want to hear why it’s not before I allow my tax dollars to be spent on other boondoggles in the meantime!
Cubalibre and J_T, I think you have done a better job of stating what I was trying to. Schools are an emotional issue. So are economics. I just believe that possible solutions should be on the table. Right now I don’t think the City is interested in selling the property to the CSD and I was wondering if anyone knew why. Are they holding out hope for yet another development like the Callaway, Trinity and Avondale Marta station? Would that be a valid reason in light of our impending enrollment crisis to take it off the table?
I will always maintain we need permanent, full-time staff member- NOT a consultant- who is an assistant superintendent level operations director. Someone who can plan space, work with community and make real decisions rather than throw graphs up that are filled with bad data or worse to justify ever decision the superintendent makes
I have to say that it’s darn nice that the central locations of our middle and high schools allow our students to walk to and from school plus to wherever they need to go after school.
– They can be independent and we don’t have to use helicopters, I mean minivans, to move them around
– They get exercise
– No cost, no pollution
-They are walking billboards for our supposed commitment to walkability, much more than some of us adults in Decatur
– There’s less pressure for them to get a license before they are each individually ready
– It’s easier to roll your eyes as a parent when they mention that they HAVE to have a car
– Individually, or in bunches, they are pretty much out in the open and in sight of all of us helicopters, I mean parents, whether they like it or not
– With a little ingenuity, you can usually find an example of anything they want or need after school in Decatur, e.g. dentist, track, make-up, tutoring, beverages, food, friends and tell them to go there themselves
– There’s even a fair amount of jobs for teens in walking distance
I never say never anymore about our schools. But I think it would take an awful lot of overcrowding and prohibitive expansion costs before moving either the middle and/or the high school to DeVry would be worthwhile. That’s only walkable for a very small fraction of students and the walk is one of the least safe and appealing.
Maybe you could argue that a gigando 4/5 facility could go there—as it is, half of FAVE takes the bus and another quarter seems to catch a ride mostly. But I’m not in favor of a mega 4/5. If it can’t fit into its second facility in a decade, it’s time to reconsider the concept.
However, I could see the DeVry campus being worthwhile for certain select programs, athletics, career academy whatever. That could make sense as long as we realize that that location would require a bus ride for most students.
How do we know they didn’t already take a long, hard look at DeVry and how it might/might not be leveraged for CSD? This whole conversation seems to be predicated on the assumption that board & administration have not considered DeVry, yet nobody’s offered evidence that that is the case. This is consistent with a general trend I’ve noticed regarding some people’s perceptions of how both CSD and the City conduct business: If I wasn’t in the room and didn’t get an email message about it then there must not have been a discussion. That leads to loose talk about insufficient transparency, cloaks of secrecy, nefarious doings by our current and/or former elected officials. What a waste of time, energy and pixels
These people — who operate and lead our school system — are not idiots nor are they irresponsible or inexperienced.
Fair enough, but I don’t think it’s too much to expect a list of options considered and their financial impacts before asking people to agree to such a large debt, it’s also fair to note that it seems early on and all of that may come out. But, it’s not a city of millions of people where a hit like that can be easily absorbed, this will have a lasting impact on a budget and taxes.
I don’t think anyone is calling them idiots btw, but everyone is capable of errors in judgement, either by simple mistake, or things that prejudice them on issues, kids, past decisions they feel they need to stand by, and whatever else.
Or even…
“Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an incorrect or deviant decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.
Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the “ingroup” produces an “illusion of invulnerability” (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the “ingroup” significantly overrates their own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of their opponents (the “outgroup”).”
I think when people start jumping to conclusions and engaging in overwrought discussions about what might be about to happen–when it’s obvious the process is just beginning and there will be many opportunities for the public to learn more and to respond–many of the comments imply the board and/or administrators are not very smart, not very capable, not very honest, or any combination. It’s unfounded, unnecessary and IMO annoying. Neither this school board nor this administration have ever done anything that would cause me to suspect they’d ignore a viable alternative that could save millions of dollars and just charge headlong into some other complicated, expensive plan. “What about DeVry–is there some way we could use it?” is a totally reasonable question. I just don’t think the tone of some of the dialogue on DM lately about this issue has been completely reasonable or fair. That said, it’s not that big a deal (the commentary, I mean) and I didn’t mean to make more of it than it is.
Groupthink is something that many of us in Decatur are guilty of, including the School Board, educators, parents, a lot of us. Like the narrative fallacy, it prevents us from opening our minds to the best solutions. We’ve all got to work on this.
Anyone know when the RR crossings realignments at McDonough and Atlanta/Adair will take place?
If the City is looking for a way to enhance revenue it just needs to station a police officer to write tickets for all the drivers on southbound Clairemont who cross Commerce from the left turn lane.
+1
They’re also leaving money on the table at several 4-way stops: 3rd/East Lake (by the Boys and Girls Club), East Lake/Oakview, Oakview/2nd and Oakview/Adams. Would love to see each of these intersections get intensively patrolled, with no mercy, 1-2x/month at random.
And to the woman who passed me like I was standing still, last Saturday morning as I drove northbound on 2nd between Memorial and Hosea: I was driving the speed limit. You were reckless. I hope you have 2 flat tires when you’re in a hurry and dressed in your best, and it’s raining.
I bet I’ve seen that woman and been passed by her on 2nd. One of the most aggressive drivers I’ve run across. She’ll barrel down the turn lane on 2nd and Memorial and cut people off at the intersection.
2nd from Memorial to Hosea is Atlanta, not Decatur.
I still had her in sight when she crossed the city limit, and she didn’t slow down.
But if she passed you in Atlanta, it’s their offense, not Decatur’s.
I understand jurisdiction. That is why I have cast a hex on her as punishment for being reckless, irresponsible and just plain rude.
+1
I remember a time when I would think nothing of flipping someone off driving like that. Too chicken for that anymore, someone will blow your head off for it. Every blue moon my finger will twitch on automatic impulse when someone cuts me off, but just can’t do it.
She drives into Decatur on 2nd.
Sounds like a neighborhood posse is going to be waiting for her one day. But be careful! Someone like that could carry a gun!
Does it work to take down license plate numbers and let the police know? I used to do that years ago in Los Angeles when I was driving constantly across town. Never knew if it did anything.
Does she consistently drive that route at a similar time every day? If so, DPD might be interested in a stake out.
Anyone know when the Decatur “big” trash day is?? Last year it was in April, but I haven’t seen anything on the website.
I have some things making my backyard look like Sanford and Sons. I could go to the dump, but believe that at least one a year, there is a big-ticket-item pickup.
Front page of the website. It’s already started and depends on your neighborhood:
http://www.decaturga.com/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=3922
Winnona Park’s Super Trash Day is April 20th. It’s different for each neighborhood. Check http://www.decaturga.com
Does anyone know what happened with the ownership of Your Cleaners next to Farm Burger? Been going there for years and had a good relationship with the nice lady that’s been there for years. I went the other day and there were brand new people operating things. What happened to the other lady? Did she sell?
Both old and new were there the other day, and they have computerized their system. Either they did sell and are sticking around to help with transition, or they just have a new employee.
The owner did sell, telling me she was retiring from the dry cleaning business. Word is the kind woman typically working the counter may continue on in a part-time capacity but that is something being addressed with the new owners.
The new folks are industry vets who’ve been running a dry cleaners in Buckhead for years. They seemed very nice when I was in, motivated to earn the trust of long-time customers, and the quality of the cleaning I got back was very good.
My continued patronage is their’s to lose!
By the way, her retirement was only from the dry cleaning. She still owns the building.
STG, I was at the last board meeting and have a lot of respect for the members. It seemed at the meeting like DeVry was off the table. My question was ‘Why?’ When I am being asked to help pay for something I feel free to ask questions about it. Feel free to not like the idea or even present your own. I was hoping that someone could state the City’s or the CSD’s position on DeVry.
Karen, I may have confused you with someone that commented recently on a different thread that they would vote for anybody other than current school board members. So if I erred in conflating that “boot the bums” perspective with your remarks here, then my mistake and I apologize.
In any case, the best way to get answers to such questions, if they are not in evidence in published materials (meeting agendas, minutes, etc.) is to contact your board member. Neither school board members nor city commissioners are going to address specific questions in an open, public forum like this. The opportunities to be misconstrued and misquoted are infinite and there is no upside for them. And then there are legal constraints about how/when/where any of them can communicate publicly in their official capacity. So send them an email or call ‘em up and ask.
I do agree with anybody who’s ever said that CSD has particularly negative aptitude when it comes to communication. Wish it were better, but I don’t consider it their core mission and if we have to choose, I want them to be among the best at educating children. Which I think they are.
See below. Important for those interested in and/or concerned about expensive renovations at the high school and middle school. This is a positive response to requests for SLT involvement. If people do not show up, then folks can continue to say “Oh, parents and the community don’t really care, they just want to blog…” I know it occurs a little early before most work days end but I hope that folks who care will show up. If you don’t, you’ve lost an opportunity. The powers that be count bodies that show up for information much more than they count blog posts. Hope some folks from the City show up too.
JOINT SLT on CSD MASTER PLANNING for DHS and RMS
Decatur High School and Renfroe Middle School will host a joint School Leadership Team Work Session on the development of City Schools of Decatur Master Plan to accommodate rising enrollment and future capacity needs for both Decatur and Renfroe. All parents are welcome to listen as Project Manager, Jeff Prine, and CSD Director of Facilities, Jason Ware, discuss plans for the future development of the Master Plan.
Date: Thursday, April 18, 2013
Time: 4:00 PM
Location: Decatur High School Media Center
***Please note this is an informational worksession for the Renfroe Middle School and Decatur High School SLTs. The presentation is a public meeting, but there will not be time for public comment. The City Schools of Decatur will be hosting a Community Forum regarding the Master Plan at a later date.***
Note from AHID: There’s no public comment period but you can refer to the session if you comment at a Board meeting or by email/letter/phone. I guarantee you that being able to refer to what is presented at this meeting will carry a lot of weight.
Thank you for posting this. I will be there. I hope everyone who is interested will be able to attend and voice whatever their opinion is.
There’s evidently no public comment at this particular session, sorry. But you CAN comment at the public comment portion of regular SLT meetings or Board meetings or anytime by email/letter/phone. Folks are really impressed by bodies that show up because attendance at most (admittedly boring) public meetings is low. But the nice thing about emails is that you have a (FOIA-able) email trail if you ever need it. Doing both is best.
Sorry for the double post. Darn phone. At the last board meeting they promised that there would be public sessions held before they vote. I hope they can schedule those for a time when it will be easier to get a babysitter.
Sorry for the double post. At the last board meeting they promised that there would be public sessions held before they vote. I hope they can schedule those for a time when it will be easier to get a babysitter.
Bring the kid and a few books/toys/homework/whatever to keep him/her occupied. Most high school and middle school parents still remember how hard it is to get child care at odd hours.
Thank you for posting this. I will be there. I hope everyone who is interested will be able to attend.
Is it just your personal belief that butts in seats is more powerful than blogs, forums, discussion boards, or even letters to the editor, or is there some evidence that backs this up? Not sure why the power of the public written word is being marginalized. Public officials may not interact one-on-one or one-to-many through this medium, but I would not underestimate its effect or suppose that those who blog as opposed to those who show up at meetings are somehow lazier, less engaged, or have less of an impact. It seems to me that all methods are additive and helpful in their own way. Personally, a note or call directly to a board member seems to me to be one of the less likely ways to get things done since a board member ignoring a one-on-one encounter has less risk than ignoring a larger public conversation.
Over and over again, I’ve heard “We held in a meeting in 19XX at 11:30 in the morning on a Tuesday but no one showed up…. Parents (or community, or teachers, or whoever, fill in the blank) don’t really care…” And when there has been a big turnout, e.g. possibe closing of Frasier Center at high school a few years back, wow did action get taken. It makes some sense. If someone takes the time out from their busy family and/or work life, maybe gets a babysitter, and walks or drives over, parks, and sits through a (sometimes boring) meeting, that shows a lot of commitment.
HOWEVER, if you cannot make a particular meeting, go ahead and blog, email, write, phone. It’s better to do something than nothing. Government is on auto-pilot assuming all are ecstatically happy with its choices if it hears nothing from the populace.