Decatur’s MO During Snow Events
Decatur Metro | January 12, 2011 | 10:17 amA couple folks have written in to DM over the last couple days asking about whether the City of Decatur owned or had access to any snow plows or sanders. I relayed the questions to City Manager Peggy Merriss, who was good enough to provide us with a thorough response.
Overall, this weather event has been reasonable. The last time something like this happened was about ten years ago and we lost a lot of trees, had significant property damage and had massive power outages that lasted for days. (Mine was out for five). So far, we have gotten through this one with very few accidents, no real damage and no disturbance to the power supply.
We do not purchase or store salt. We do have a sand spreader and our standard procedure is to sand areas that are identified as a critical need by our public safety and public works staff.
We do not have a snow plow. Purchasing a snow plow for the once every five-ten years we would use it would not be fiscally responsible.
Generally we rely on the powers of nature to help us out – some sunshine and a light wind are most helpful and that doesn’t cost us.
Because we are not collecting residential sanitation tomorrow, our public works crew will be working on clearing the sidewalks in the central business district so that when it does refreeze Wednesday night, the walks will be clear and usable.
I hope most of the remnants of this weather will be gone by Saturday.
The Decatur Minute just put up a post highlighting the work of city employees cleaning sidewalks around downtown Decatur.
Seems absolutely reasonable to me. Thanks for the sidewalk clearing!
Cheers to the public works crew!!! A big thank you! Definitely beyond your normal duty.
I agree LP, but I don’t think I’ve encountered a city-cleared sidewalk yet (and I walk a lot). Today, I did see a city worker using his shovel to spread some red dirt on top of the icy sidewalk on Sycamore St. After testing it, though, I think it only provided the illusion of safety. Why not just use the shovel to break up and remove the ice??
The walkways and drives that were shoveld yesterday are dry today.
Thanks! I hope the public works crew is able to have a little fun while clearing the snow and throw a snowball or 2…
Interesting comment about how purchasing a snow plow would be be fiscally irresponsible. I’m not sure I agree. There are cheaper, smaller plows that could fit on the city’s existing trucks that could take care of trouble areas like the hill near the post office.
I maintain that snowplows are not what is needed for ice, rather sand or salt. You don’t see northern or western cities plowing out every street every time there’s a little snow or ice on the roads. Plowing is slow and gets the big piles of snow, not the stuff along the surface of the street. Sand trucks with heavy tires quickly deposit sand or salt or something like that along the roads. You usually hear them about 2-4 AM and they are done by 6 AM when the commuters start out.
But I’m no expert, just someone who’s lived a lot of places.
Having grown up in Wyoming (that’s my expertise), I concur. The snow plows are usually more useful on highway roads where you don’t mind the massive accumulation from moving the snow. What’s odd to me, however, is the sand trucks. I’d never seen those until I moved to Georgia.
Every home in my hometown kept a few big bags of salt on hand for clearing entrances to their own homes. I’m not sure that you could argue that keeping salt on hand would be fiscally irresponsible on the City of Decatur’s part. Sand doesn’t do much; salt completely clears all kinds of ice (including black) regardless of the temperature or whether nature decides to help out. Plus, it’s not like salt goes bad…
I’m not certain that a cheaper small plow attached to a truck would have been effective in this type of icy storm but I am surprised that they don’t own a single plow. I am happy that the city found a way to keep the sanitation workers employed this week in a manner that also greatly helps the city and businesses. I hope that this becomes a standard procedure for the next storm.
Karass and CE make good points, but I suppose my perspective is that the city spends money on things like the (excellent) welcome video on youtube… and doesn’t have a snow plow or a salt supply. Seems odd…
Russ,
I’m not a big Peggy Merris supporter, but in this case I am heartened by her response and agree with her sentiment.
Perhaps one could re-phrase the question and inquire as to whether the same degree of fiscal responsibility was exhibited by other items that the city has purchased.
“Perhaps one could re-phrase the question and inquire as to whether the same degree of fiscal responsibility was exhibited by other items that the city has purchased.”
Perhaps you could give some examples of things where fiscal responsibility was not exercised.
I agree with the city not purchasing snow plows or trucks for events like this, which are probably going to be infrequent. That said, it would seem reasonable to look into finding contractors who could help plow or sand the roads if we have another event like this.
I’m still confused by the phrase, “weather event”–was there a show I missed? Perhaps a catered gathering with an open bar and hip, well-dressed attendees?
A plow blade can be attached to tbe front of trucks. What about road crews with shovels for hills on major streets. The sidewalks we cleared on Monday are dry today. Unshoveled ones are nearly impassable
This strikes me as a pretty silly response. We probably don’t need a plow, but DEC’s point about contracting for the service is definitely a good idea.
The most ridiculous part of the response, though, is the implication that we get ice once every 5-10 years. That’s simply not true. We get real ice storms a few times a year. (This same weekend, we got a big one last year, and then a few more.) Why can’t the city purchase salt in anticipation of these storms? Everyone knew as early as Saturday that there was going to be a real ice situation. The City could have begun to salt the roads Sunday. With the main roads de-iced on Monday, it could have continued to salt side streets. Thus, without a plow but with only some bags of salt, we’d have had clear roads and sidewalks by yesterday. This is how it’s usually done in places where snow is infrequent but regular (i.e., for sure to happen once a year or so).
I think it’s actually pretty sad that Peggy Merris seems to think the City’s response has been anything better than terrible. It’s great that sanitation workers are clearing sidewalks, but many of the roads are impassable and don’t promise to get any better anytime soon.
Did you vote in the last City election?
Why not focus on the issue instead of Tom’s personal situation?
Agreed. There is a small but vocal crowd here that seems to think one must prove he/she voted in the last local election before being allowed to comment on a local issue. It’s getting old — and bordeline annoying — at this point.
On the merits, Tom is right that we get ice more than once every few years, though it still the exception, not the rule. What is unusual about this year is the duration of the ice. Usually, if we have ice on day 1, it’s gone by day at the latest.
Because the City Manager is hired by the City Commissioners who are hired by the people who vote. Typical turnout in City elections is about 20%. People who complain about the government at any level but have not voted want it all on one side of the fence. With advance and absentee voting, there’s not much excuse not to vote. You candidate may not win, but you’ve exercised your privilege. Many folks around the world can’t do that.
We should welcome everyone’s views, including people who are just visiting Decatur to eat, shop or use the courthouse. The same is true for new residents who have not voted, or people under 18, etc.
I welcome everyone’s views, but those people who complain about something without exercising their direct ability to do anything about it don’t have much credibility. In this instance, if you want to complain about how the City is run, then you should be exercising your opportunity to do something about it.
I see, you have to assess a poster’s “credibility” when reading their post — on an anonymous message board, no less. Good luck with that pointless exercise.
Is this snow/ice event really that big of a deal? I’ve been driving around for the last 2 days with no problem. Peggy Merris is right and she’s not elected. For those of you who think that we need to invest in plows and salt for an occasional storm, raise the money privately to buy them and donate them to the City. By the way, salt is a pollutant and harmful to groundwater and streams. In the interim, if you have to drive, go buy some chains. There was plenty of warning to allow time to have them installed.
RE chains: Are they allowed? I used to keep a pair of chains in the back of my car at all times and actually used them in the Southeast snowstorm of 1993 (where they did me no good because the idiot snowbirds in shorts and flip flops were strewed all over I-26 and I couldn’t get past them). But someone told me chains were illegal because they tear up the roads (which is true but they tear up the ice first!).
Okay, so we buy a plow or stockpile salt for the once-in-a-blue-moon occasions when it would be nice. Drop the money on that, then pay public works guys time and a half to work round the clock. All to get us a couple miles to the edge of town where DeKalb, Gwinnett and Fulton county roads are once again impassable?
What’s the point in spending money to connect us to a crippled system? I might see the point if we were an island of ice in an otherwise functioning region but, if I can’t really go anywhere meaningful beyond what I can do on foot, I really don’t care if the road in front of my house is plowed or not.
I was disappointed to see that so few home- and business owners took it upon themselves to shovel the sidewalks in front of their properties. The cleared sidewalks were perfect to walk on yesterday and today, but those not, were downright treacherous. We live in a great city which promotes community and walkability, so next time please consider doing the responsible thing.
I share the shoveling disappointment, and think it is a matter of education. Maybe next snow/ice “event” that we have some warning on, we can circulate reminders on blogs like this to be sure to shovel our sidewalks when possible, so as to help folks move around. Some of the neighborhood associations could maybe coordinate a shoveling crew, and work on prioritized routes. Areas in front of churches could be dealt with by members who live near. The City could also work on a low cost plan to help people be out and about— salt on the sidewalks that have been shovelled by workers and/or residents, limited to one side of the street, would have greatly helped us get to MARTA or downtown to shop/spend money at local businesses. I’m pretty unsteady on my feet, and don’t feel able to chance moving on the ice for more than a few blocks. If I only had to chance one or two side streets before getting to a clear sidewalk on majorand important connections to the major roads, odds are far more likely that I would’ve been out and about.
I’m not home, but could someone take a pic of their clear and dry sidewalk from today that shows the benefits of shoveling? It’ll be helpful to have a pictoral for our education reminders next time!
Well, my first problem is that I don’t have a shovel and I don’t think a plastic rake would work all that well. And having been called “Yankee Metro” in the past, you can assume I’ve had a good deal of experience with the snow.
But I agree, next time we should organize a “shovel brigade”. It’ll be the greatest thing ever!
Yeah, I had to use our garden shovel (luckily we have one that has a flat edge), so our cleared areas aren’t super wide. I’m thinking I’ll cave and buy a wide plastic snow shovel this year– these snow and ice Events are starting to happen more frequently. Or it’ll act as an insurance policy and I won’t need to use the shovel I spent money on!
I used a flat-edge garden shovel and cleared my sidewalk, part of my steep driveway and a neighbor’s driveway. I also used a push broom to get rid of cracked chunks of ice.
I’m guilty of this — sorry, neighbors. Growing up in CA, we never had snow, so I wasn’t aware of this protocol. Of course, it makes sense. I agree that it’s a matter of education. Thanks for educating me!
In addition to not owning a snow shovel, I can assure you that both my husband and I were busy occupying our daughter and trying to squeeze in a full day’s work every day this week. As much as I would love clear sidewalks, our bosses would disagree that such activity is the best use of our time. I understand the snow days, but it wreaks havoc on families with two working parents (or single working parent families). So, it’s not really not an educational, geographical or physical issue for us. Just a best use of time given the situation.
I always thought that in most municipalities, property owners could face liability issues if they didn’t clear the sidewalks in front of their properties (of ice or other safety hazards). Can anyone more versed in the city statutes confirm whether this is the case in Decatur?
Got a solution that should make everyone happy:
- City buys a huge pile of salt and stores it at Westchester
- If needed, city uses it to battle the next big ice storm
- If not needed, Decatur hosts the biggest Margarita party in the South: I present to you the Great Decatur Craft Margarita Festival!
Love it! excess salt could turn the city pools to saltwater vs chlorine!
I’d hate for salt to be used– it’d be reallllly harsh on the animals.
*Folks- If you do take your dog(s) for a snowy walk, please wash their paws (& between toes) afterward. If they’ve walked through any salt or de-icer mix, it’ll irritate their feet– and potentially harm them if they lick it off. It’s also a good idea in this arctic weather to massage a little olive oil into their paws to ward off cracking. (This PSA from Maddie the Dog.)
Maddie, are you a St. Bernard? I met a St. Bernard today but your name flew out of my brain when I flew down the hill on the ice. All I remember is M–.
I think I’ve asked this before, but does anyone remember the poster here who on multiple occasions spoke from a dog’s perspective? One of the funniest comments ever was the person that responded to one of their comments and said “I’m sorry, but is someone here posting as their dog?”. I don’t know why, but my Simpsons/MST3K sense of humor found that hilarious enough to recount years later!
Okay. I’ll confess… Maddie doesn’t actually talk, but she has VERY expressive eyes! I’m pretty sure this was what she wanted me to share with folks after I fretted aloud.
No, she’s not a St. Bernard. Maddie’s a knee-high slip of an old gal– a wonderful ??? mix. Sweet & kind as all get-out. She’s the only dog I’ve ever known who likes to rescue squirrels, not chase them! I love her dearly.
There are many good points made both pro and con for solutions offered (that are on target with the subject), but, IMHO, this isn’t the worst thing in the world. Life and weather happen, and nothing is (thankfully) life threatening. But I am so sorry for those who, if they don’t work, they don’t get paid. Also, while it would be great if we could drive next time, even if we can, once we leave the city limits of Decatur, we’d be back to square one once we reach City of Atlanta/DeKalb County (which I surmise is the majority of destinations).
Well, I guess I touched a nerve. I wonder why.
Not that my right to express my opinion has anything to do with it, but I have voted in every election held for which I have been an eligible voter since I was 18. That includes primaries, presidential elections, school board elections, and even (once) a dog-cather election.
The reason I am not buying (or acquiring) salt and donating it to the City is because as a resident of the City of Decatur, I pay a lot of property taxes. There is an implicit agreement between citizens and their government that the government will provide basic services and infrastructure. The extent of those services is usually determined by an agreement between citizens and their government (arranged by their elected officials). The tax code is usually one indicator of that agreement. I look at the tax structure in Decatur and infer that my government should be one of the better area governments in terms of providing and maintaining infrastructure.
Forget the salt – why was every road in Suwanee clear and safe by Monday? (See the Channel 2 story from this evening’s 6:00 news). The answer is that the city manager was proactive and got on top of things, contracting with local businesses to begin salting and clearing the roads on Sunday. Should our local government not also be taking a proactive role? Yes. Should Peggy Merris say that it is good enough to let nature take care of a crippling ice storm? No. She should be acting as a leader and doing what it takes to clean up the city quickly.
The reason I posted here to begin with was simply that I found her response to be lacking in the responsibility that leaders have. Kaseem Reed is out working his tail off in an effort to clean up Atlanta. He’s not taking a laissez-faire approach to government. The city manager of Suwanee jumped to action this weekend when he realized how bad it was going to be. Our government, by contrast, is sitting back complimenting themselves on how great it is that nature didn’t knock down any power lines and will eventually (Saturday?) melt most of the ice from our roads (except, of course, for the shady ones).
And, I voted for Peggy Merris.
Her supporters, that is.
Hmmm. Suwannee figured out a way to get clear and safe quickly? In no way am I criticizing City of Decatur leaders because this is an unusual, hard-to-predict, hard-to-plan-for event. BUT, if there’s a lesson to be learned from Suwannee and apply to our fair town, let’s learn it. I don’t think there’s been many bad consequences from our unpassable streets so far, at least not that I know of. But if our impassable roads caused or stopped us from responding to a bad fire or shooting or accident or some other catastrophe, we’d wish we’d done everything to prevent it.
I agree, this was a rare event. But, it is perfectly fair to criticize leaders’ responses to unusual events. We always praise leaders when they respond well to unusual events (e.g., tornados, hostage events, terrorist attacks). Why not criticize them for responding poorly to similar events?
My point is that we pay a lot of property taxes and expect in return a proactive government that takes the lead and responsibility when circumstances demand it. A response from a leader that amounts to “we’re not doing anything other than diverting the sanitation workers to sidewalk sweeping” is not leadership.
Congratulations on being one of the 20% ! You should have a discussion with your City Commissioners in addition to posting here and/or go to a City Commission meeting and speak during the comment period.
There are lots of things I don’t do. I do, after all, have a job so that I can contribute to the functioning of the government. I almost always leave government to run and accept fluctuations in how “awesome” I think the outputs are. But, when I see city leaders openly espousing a laissez-faire approach when my street is impassable and I haven’t had any mail since Saturday, and my employer is unable to open for business, I must say something.
Like I said, take your concerns to your elected officials.
Venting here isn’t completely useless. On more than one occasion I’ve heard of or seen reaction from govt officials on specific issues raised here. Not to mention the ones that they respond to directly on DM.
All that said, this seems to be yet another” damned if you do” situation for city officials. If they had spent tons of money in prep and nothing happened, we’d be hearing from a different displeased contingent. Not saying we can’t learn something from Suwanee, but I’ve always said that Decatur’s more fiscally prudent than many realize.
Here’s the Suwanee story. Interesting. Would we want to pay the money for this?
http://m.ajc.com/news/gwinnett/atlanta-weather-some-cities-802372.html
A qualified yes, but would need to see the dollar costs first. Are we more like Suwanee that can afford it or Snellville that cannot? The idea of a contract that is invoked only if the need arises seems to be a better idea than investing in city equipment that might rarely be used.
Interesting that the insert next to the article contains a Gwinnett story entitled “Ambulance response to pregnant woman slowed by ice”. That’s the cost of not having the ice/snow equipment or a contract to handle.
I’ll take our Public Works & City Folks for all other road matters! Suwanee’s DOT 141 road widening project took a ridiculously long time to complete. (Maybe because it fell into Forsyth, not Gwinnett, Suwanee territory.) You better believe our team would’ve stayed on top of pushing it along!
I believe that was a state, rather than local, project.
DM,
To be clear, I am NOT arguing the only, or event best, way to deal with this situation is to spend a ton of money in anticipation of a snow/ice storm. Rather, I am simply saying that responsible, effective leaders respond to circumstances, adjust their strategies, and take action when necessary. Our leaders have explicit said they are not doing that but rather sitting around waiting.
The mayor of Atlanta has acted; the city manager of Suwanee has acted. Our leaders are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, hoping it gets warm. The weather forecasters told us Sunday this was going to be bad. On Monday, they revised and said it would be even worse. Here we are, on Thursday, and our leaders are still just sitting back trusting old’ “mother nature” to deal with this. An effective leader would have been on the phone this weekend, or at least Monday, putting together a strategy for dealing with the ice.
Steve,
I am not going to engage in snipping with you. But, it strikes me as very, very odd that you seem to have either (a) assumed a LOT about my political behavior, and (b) created your own form of democracy in which the only legitimate form of democratic deliberation is for people to talk to their elected officials to the exclusion of each other (in a public forum no less). I dare suggest your form of “democracy” is more of an oligarchy or totalitarian society in which public discourse is illegitimate.
If you think I am discussing politics here to the exclusion of participating in the political process, then what’s your evidence for that? I believe you are just assuming things about a perfect stranger. If you think vibrant democracy does not involve public deliberation among private citizens, then I would ask you why? This does not seem grounded in any notion of democratic theory with which I am familiar.
The City Folks absolutely pay attention to what’s said on here! (Don’t believe me? Attend a Commissioners Meeting when a hotly debated item’s on the agenda! Actually, I wish folks would because the City Folks always seem disappointed by the light turnout.) Decatur Metro is an excellent resource for assessing public opinion & gathering input! Folks generally put some thought into their positions & eagerly engage in lively discussion. I always appreciate when City Folks offer up their perspectives on here. Do I always think they’re right? No, but I do think they’ve all shown themselves to be very flexible about reevaluating things when given more info to ponder.
Resources simply can’t match expectations in Ga. when it comes to ice and snow. In the past, people simply accepted that you had to stay home for a few days. That is clearly no longer the case.
As Steve articulates his “rules” of a democratic society, I might suggest that there are many ways to participate democratically aside from voting. One of those ways includes public comment, as expressed either directly to public officials or indirectly via outlets like DM. For a variety of reasons, comment can promote good governance beyond its obvious cathartic properties for the commenter. In our country, you obviously don’t (and shouldn’t) lose your right to comment because you failed to vote in a prior election, or really any election for that matter. And practically, I fail to see how the persuasiveness of one’s argument about a public policy matter such as clearing the roads of ice has anything to do with past voting behavior. Is there something about pulling a lever or pressing a screen that enhances your sense of how handle a snowstorm? I appreciate all of your perspectives (including Tom’s) and I am so very happy to live in a place where we all communicate about relevant issues of public policy.
Jeff, I think I understand what you are saying. But could you please confirm that you voted in the last election? Otherwise I just can’t evaluate your credibility on matters such as participating in a democratic society. Thanks. And while you are at it, feel free to add any other qualifications that may bolster (or detract from) your credibility to post on an internet message board. I will sit in judgment of your resume, and let you know in due course if your views are worthy of consideration. If I find you worthy, I’ll then tell you not to waste your time posting here, but to take your concerns directly to the elected officials.
I agree with Steve, but I’d take it a step farther. Not only must you vote in order to have any effective voice in public policy, you must vote the right way. After all, in the last presidential election, the number of absolute, complete morons who voted was either 60 million or 70 million, depending on your view of the outcome
Yeah, I never could figure out what THEY were thinking. What a bunch of morons!
I totally agree with Tom. But, how about we get these roads clear so
I can get to work. It has been a really long time since the storm hit and I have not seen any progress in getting the roads clear. The sun won’t clear up the ice when it’s below freezing out. Let’s hire some contractors and get this done instead of waiting for spring to arrive. And if we’re going all out political here then me thinks a change of leadership is in store for next election. The way this storm was handled was ridiculous.
You need to turn off your computer and quit reading all these whining posts about the roads. You make it sound like we’re paralyzed. There is some ice on the roads but they are passable if you drive with caution. The interstate downtown was crowded this morning. People are going to work.
Umm.. Hello Decatur and Atlanta were both paralyzed by this storm. And if I could go to work I sure as heck wouldn’t be commenting on the DM. I did in fact get out today and Oakview was a mess as well as South McDonough and College Ave by Agnes Scott. Is it beginning to melt? Yes it is but it’s going to freeze again tonight and work will be closed again tomorrow. So how about encouraging the powers that be to come up with a Plan B for the next storm.
I don’t know what the best strategy is for future snow/ice storms. When you look at what the cost has been to citizens & businesses this time around, it does seem like a plow attachment for clearing away 1st snow would be a good investment. Maybe we could partner with Avondale to share one. A citizens’ involvement game plan would be good too. Did anyone see that Ch.46 news story last night on the Atlanta man who’s using his plow to clear his neighborhood’s streets? Pretty darned cool! Community farmers to the rescue! And what if sand deliveries were made to neighborhoods ahead of time so that we could sand our sidewalks? Of course, we’d also need a clean-up plan– all that sand left to go down into the infrastructure wouldn’t be good. My point is: Let’s focus on what could work & go from there!
I like the idea of having sand/salt out there and ready for citizens to use only where needed. E.g. most of our street was passable except one hill which stymied most going up it. But it was fine once it got some sand on it today. I doubt a plow would have done anything but skim over the ice.
“In truth, immediately i didn’t understand the essence. But after re-reading all at once became clear.”
LAWSUITS WAITING TO HAPPEN. That’s what I thought when I saw ice covered sidewalks in front of the Wachovia building and the Cornerstone Bank building and the parking area behind Parker’s. and along the artisan condos …people attempting our “Walkable” city and falling all over themselves. really agree with Tom on this one, because the city’s first responsibility is for the safety of their citizens, maybe it’s these businesses responsibility to clear their sidewalks, as much as it is mine to clear the sidewalk in front of my house (really guys, no excuses about better use of your time, just do it) -clearly waiting for Mother Nature to do her job isn’t cutting it today or yesterday –maybe tomorrow this post will be all but forgotten, and we’ll soon be complaining about the sweltering heat — I hope.
Two related points:
1. Kudos to whomever salted the sidewalks along Ponce in front of McKinney’s, Great Clips, etc. (the Townsquare Condo Association maybe?).
2. Say what you will about car-loving pedestrian-unfriendly Atlanta, but the sidewalks in the heavy-traffic downtown area were so much better than the ones in the pedestrian-heavy parts of downtown Decatur. I was very surprised.
I cant believe what a mess you have down there! My sister and her family have been trapped i the house for 4 dys now. We had TWENTY FOUR INCHES in massachusetts and the roads were clear and back to normal in less than 24 hrs! Because of the changes in the weather you really need to invest in salt trucks… if your roads were salted before the storm came and then you continued to salt you would not have these problems now.
Stay out of it Yankee! Can’t you see we’re arguing about this just fine ourselves? We’re all wicked pissah down here and no one is trapped. Now go drink a Pepsi and send us some salt and shovels…
I have to agree with Tom wholeheartedly on this one. In GA it’s not the snow that’s the problem, it’s the ice. Yes, it usually warms up, but my family has been trapped in our house since Sunday night. I’m left to wait until it melts. Thank God we had a supply of food, and diapers on hand….