City Commission Refers Parkwood Annexation Petition To Staff For Review
Decatur Metro | February 4, 2014Decaturish has a good report from last night’s Decatur City Commission meeting regarding the acceptance of a Parkwood neighborhood petition to have 76 homes annexed into the City of Decatur.
City Manager Peggy Merriss stated that staff would begin analyzing the impact of a potential annexation of the Parkwood neighborhood.
According to the Decaturish report, the school system has already held meetings with the neighborhood to discuss current student populations in the neighborhood.
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It would be a shame to not annex the parkwood area and should be done without delay..
Spoken like a man about to make $100k for nothing…
…like a man speculating on assumptions.
So has anybody actually put forth any evidence that people on Parkwood will make $100k for nothing?
See OrangeUGlad’s post below. People will pay more for Decatur schools. Look at streets on the edge of Decatur – a house just outside the line sells for much less than the house next door that is just inside the line.
Is there any need to annex anything? It is not like tbere is no cost here. What do we get out of it? The good feeling that comes along with doing someone a favor? Ok. But there is a cost. Supposedly there are only 10 school age children in th 76 Parkwood houses. A little bar to bid e, but ok. Willing to bet in a few years that number is a lot closer to 50 as Parkwood becomes the next Oakhurst. At some point we will collapse under the burden of school taxes.
M1, you are so right. OrangeUGlad does hit the nail on the head when s/he admits that it’s basically about the schools. “If the schools were in Decatur, we’d consider living there!” I’m sure s/he isn’t the only one who thinks that way.
We need more commercial, not residential, so the cost of taxes (schools) won’t fall so heavily on homeowners like it does now. Annexing residential is the opposite of what the city needs to do.
I’m still waiting for Theron Wasson to tell us why the city should annex Parkwood “without delay!”
I can honestly say it is statements like this that make me rather take my chance with a new city of Briarwhatever than the snots and snobs of COD.
AMB,
Please do not lump us all in the same snotty boat. It’s comments like this that embarrass me as a Decaturite. Wow, shaking my head.
AMB, are you in Parkwood?
It must be exhausting to constantly be on the lookout for somebody getting something they might not deserve.
Yes!
Can you share with us the pros to annexing more residential in general and to annexing Parkwood in particular?
I hope this happens – Parkwood is a lovely established neighborhood – would be nice to have it in the Decatur fold.
We don’t live in Parkwood, but would seriously consider it if it had Decatur schools. Good to have more options of larger homes/lots for families that want to upsize yet stay in City of Decatur.
If you move quickly, you can live in Parkwood now for less than in the future, if the annexation goes through! Jump on it! Ha!
CH your comments are irresponsible, insulting and not true. I have been reading your endless litany for a few days now and it has finally boiled over. I live in the COD portion of the Parkwoods and the only potential cost difference in houses between the two sections is related to the home’s proximity to the to the railroad tracks. This is a factor in any neighborhood. There are very beautiful and valuable homes in the unincorporated side of our neighborhood. This annexation might actually be a positive cash flow that helps to fund the the inevitable expansion needed for our schools, regardless of the 8 additional children that might attend from the Parkwoods. You act as if there will be a guaranteed mass exodus, which again, is likely untrue. The homes in the unincorporated section are occupied by professionals from all walks of life. We can walk to the MARTA station, downtown Decatur, and Oakhurst. I doubt the demographics will change very much at all because we all value the quality of life we experience here. This has been very hard for our neighborhood and for you to toss out accusatory statements focused on greed is completely unacceptable.
Mz D, in your words, as a Parkwood resident, what does the city gain from the annexation? We understand pretty well what the neighborhood gains. I would seriously like to know how the annexation adds value to the city. Can you explain that to us?
And regarding the “guaranteed mass exodus” – those are your words, not mine. But just look around town to see the very real and obvious trend with regard to families and kids.
tax revenue on 76 lots?
My sense is that you’re right–it’s the tax revenue. No one on this blog has come up with any other incentive for the City wanting to annex a purely residential property other than keeping a great neighborhood together and being proactive before another city annexes the area. So I guess that’s it–tax revenue. Problem is that the added tax revenue may provide a net financial gain or at least a wash in terms of the non-school related parts of the city budget and responsibilities. But it doesn’t create classroom space in a city that has little space, new or old, for a growing number of children. And many seem to think the tax revenue won’t bring in enough money to cover building more classroom space or buying it. So you have to borrow it. Which brings us to another current DM topic–the city debt. I tend to trust our officials on things like debt, whether it be the city’s debt or SPLOST or the national debt ceiling, but many do not. (I have to trust them since I clearly have no idea what’s going on.)
The good news is that I’m learning a lot on DM as usual. Bad news is that the wisest course is not clear to me. I’m going to go distract myself with worrying about global warming. NPR said that there’s an increase in the type of free-floating iceberg that sunk the Titanic.
Based on some of the facts bantered about here on DM, the city might (at present) gain over a half million in tax revenue, which could translate to $350-400K in CSD funding. Let’s say the number of school aged kids in the proposed area is actually 8 as stated. That would be around a $75,000 impact, leaving a net gain of around $300,000 to the school and around $200,000 to the general fund.
So there’s that. And it comes with this caveat: There will be times when any neighborhood is revenue negative and other times when it’s revenue positive. Any policy approach that assumes either as a permanent condition is whack.
The 8 kids (and I’m sure they are lovely children; I like them already!) incur an operating cost of $75,000 but what about the cost to house them? Will that $350,000 of revenue for CSD build what is needed? We know it won’t build a house in Oakhurst anymore but will it build a classroom and corresponding bathroom, cafeteria, “common space”, playground, and administrative space? With or without iPads, whiteboards, and bike racks? What about the legal fees if the parents aren’t happy with either the gifted or special ed services (and I’m not knocking parents for appropriately advocating for their children)? Just saying’….
There’s a reason CSD has been worried about annexation. And a reason they’ve already been in touch with Parkwood. I’ve got my fingers crossed that the math behind whatever the City decides is sound and it all works out for the best.
All true, except that part of CH’s position is “If it is mainly CSD that Parkwood wants, the families with children are more than welcome to move within the city limits.” Thus, so long as you purchase a home in the existing limits, you can pump out puppies to your heart’s content. Doesn’t that discredit the notion that we’re simply trying to limit new enrollments?
Who’s out there working on a China-esque limited child policy for Decatur? ‘Cus the way this conversation’s been going, it’s just a matter of time until someone is.
Scott, the way it looks around town these days, it’s like there is a 3-child MINIMUM – not a limit!
This city is definitely a great place for families with children.
The reality is that we do have a lot of children here and will continue to do so, with Decatur the kid-magnet it is. The houses within the current limits have people with no kids, people with kids, people with kids who are planning to have more kids, etc. There is a mix, but we know that we have more than enough residences in the city to provide more kids than we have room to house in schools. I don’t see the need to annex even MORE homes at this point. We have a school overcrowding problem right now, without annexing one single house!
Your “pumping out puppies” comment kind of helps make my point. We already have people “pumping out puppies” in the city now – why enlarge the city limits so we’ll have even more residences where ppl will “pump out more puppies” which will overcrowd the schools even more?
This isn’t against the people who live in Parkwood. I have driven through the neighborhood once or twice, and it’s quite lovely (I’ll bet the snow looked pretty in the woods there). I’m certain the ppl are lovely as well. There just isn’t room in the school system for more students. We can’t handle the ones we have now.
Well, we obviously can’t prevent people with kids from moving here (dammit), but I don’t see a good enough reason to annex more of the kind of property Decatur already has an excess of in terms of the tax digest.
This. Our proportion of residential to commercial is out of (to borrow a term for Scott) whack. Why would we annex more residential and make the problem worse?
Altruism
Just kidding. But it would probably make the pill a little easier to swallow when the annexation comes up for Walmart, Publix, or even the awesome Ace again.
DawgFan, +1.
You have identified two dimensions to the concern about annexation. One is whether CSD can handle the very real children who will immediately become their responsibility upon annexation. The other dimension is whether it’s fair that an annexed family gets immediate access to CSD benefits by just sitting in their home and paying a little more tax when current residents had to go to all that trouble of house hunting, getting a real estate agent, paying top dollar for a McCraftsman, moving, getting a new phone number etc. I prefer not to go down the latter road because, after all, I carelessly blundered into a home in Decatur back when I was single and clueless and houses were cheap and I had little to move. Do I deserve all the CSD benefits I’ve reaped?
I understand why the motivation for this petition appears to be driven solely by schools however there is more to it. The genesis of this effort began with a small group trying to determine what options we had considering external cityhood efforts which directly affected us. These included Briarcliff, Lakeside, future Franken-cities, and being annexed into Atlanta none of which we could control. After careful consideration (attending every possible cityhood meeting, meetings with everyone we could obtain relevant information from, countless hours of research, presentations to the neighborhood, going door to door to check the pulse) our neighborhood chose to approach Decatur. You all bring up valid concerns and I can’t argue (nor should anyone) with all the hypotheticals but here are a few facts: The Parkwood neighborhood does have a relatively small percentage of children who would enter the school system based on the number of homes. There has always been a very low real estate turnover rate for both the City of Decatur and the Unincorporated DeKalb sides of the Parkwoods. Based on multiple real estate agents reviewing the impact, there should be an increase in the floor price of smaller homes (350K – 375K) and a nominal increase to the average and above priced homes. The City of Decatur portion of the Parkwoods (has a few of years of data to go by) does not include a proportionately high percentage of school-age children. A detailed impact study has not been conducted but, based on estimates, this would immediately be a revenue positive annexation.
PWFan: “The genesis of this effort began with a small group trying to determine what options we had considering external cityhood efforts which directly affected us.”
I believe that’s something we can all respect. For communities’ sake, what I hope is that the City of Decatur will respect that any consideration of entire neighborhood annexations needs to be put on hold until overall DeKalb leadership (delegation, County, and cities) has had time to assess the best way to proceed on divvying up and redrawing boundaries. It’s inevitable that it’s going to happen. What we all should want is for it to happen in a way that respects all of the surrounding area and results in strong cities, existing and new.
“based on estimates, this would immediately be a revenue positive annexation.”
I keep seeing this point made, but, even assuming it is accurate, it is largely irrelevant. I and many others don’t care about whether you are revenue positive in 2014 or even 2015. We don’t care that there are only 8 school age children in your hood today. Similar statements could be made about many neighborhoods in Decatur within the last few years, and they are all seeing an explosion in the population of school age children and the projections are clear that this trend won’t end any time soon. Do you think the many, many parents desperately trying to get into CoD for the schools are going to steer clear of Parkwood if it is annexed? Annexation isn’t temporary and we must evaluate both short-term and long-term effects.
DawgFan, +1.
Dawgfan or CH,
If this is true- “I and many others don’t care about whether you are revenue positive in 2014 or even 2015.”, then let’s try and discuss this another way.
How do you suggest you keep my current, and forever future, revenue positive household from selling out?
I’m saying I want to extend the market of homes via annexation to spread out the taxbase and costs to maintain a nice school system for your children. You say no, so I say, what do you suggest to someone like me?
It is crazy for you to consider me irrelvant to this conversation.
I would say the tax base needs to be “spread out” to include more commercial, or at least multifamily, property, not single-family residential.
OK, how does a City go about annexing that kind of commercial or multifamily property? I think I recall the area by Sam’s Crossing going to the GA legislature.
How long does it take?
Can the request to annex be denied?
And what happens if another entity beats us to it?
If this is the only route we should be considering, I think we have a lot of work to do and someone who truly is passionate that this is THE ONLY WAY to survive probably ought to start a grass roots group to get moving on it.
Curious, your first four questions pretty accurately summed up the CoD’s challenges in diversifying its tax base. It ain’t easy or quick.
I have the answer to your fourth question – cities can only annex unincorporated areas. So, if another city annexes a property first, it is extremely unlikely that the property would ever lie within CoD boundaries. There was an article in the AJC last month about the “fight” over Northlake Mall – whichever proposed city incorporates that area will be much stronger financially (and the residents will have lower taxes) than the losers.
Curious, who called you irrelevant to the conversation?
“How do you suggest you keep my current, and forever future, revenue positive household from selling out? ”
Simple, we don’t even try. It is your house – do with it what best suits you and your family’s needs and desires. If you want to sell to a family wiht 17 kids, go for it.. And I don’t consider any stakeholder irrelevant in this conversation (hint, hint STG), and I am not sure how you inferred that from my comments. However, I don’t agree with your “spreading out” assertion. As houses are on average revenue negative in CoD, as you expand the number of homes, you increase the tax liabilty. So, although more be paying into the system, the per househod cost goes up. We did this dance last year, and the annexation studies confirmed that every single annexation target that was primarily residential was hugely revenue negative. Residential annexation, standing alone, is a net loss. Any residential annexation should be limited to that legally necessary to annex commercial properties.
I said it could actually provide a positive cash flow.
And it could also NOT provide a positive cash flow within a relatively short period of time.
Mz D, the fact is that there is not enough space in the school buildings/classes for the kids we already have in the system. More and more residential annexation will likely make the problem worse. If it is mainly CSD that Parkwood wants, the families with children are more than welcome to move within the city limits.
I am fully aware our schools are busting at the seams. And yes I have been looking around and was looking around over ten years ago, witnessing all the families moving into our system, while we were pleading with the school system not to close Westchester. School expansion and additional funds needed to fund that expansion are an inevitable part of our future whether or not we annex in a single additional home or not.
Mz D, you write, “School expansion and additional funds needed to fund that expansion are an inevitable part of our future whether or not we annex in a single additional home or not.”
That’s right. So why make it worse by annexing even more houses? That’s my whole point. We have a problem now. Why add to the problem with annexation?
That’s my favorite reason for annexing Parkwood so far–so they’ll never be able to close Westchester again! Not with the teeming horde of Parkwood students filling it up! In fact, looking at the new school zone for Westchester, it’s clear that once Parkwood proper joins COD, all of N.Parkwood needs to join the City too. That way, there will be a nice smooth perpendicular western border to the north side of the COD, right along the railroad tracks. There’s a small sliver of Ponce that will need to be pulled into the city too. Northwest Decatur is the new Oakhurst which was the new Great Lakes!
AHiD, you’re so right that it would be a nice, clean boundary to follow the rail line down North Parkwood and then West Parkwood.
But per a family I know on that section of North Parkwood, those families don’t want to be in Decatur. Fernbank is right behind their houses (I think it’s just the train that separates them from the school). It’s closer to them than any CSD elementary would be. They don’t want to pay taxes for CSD schools when they can walk to a great elementary in about 3 minutes. They may also be committed to Druid Hills middle and high schools, meaning they’d want to pay CoD taxes even less!
Only time will tell…
Good point about Fernbank. When Westchester closed, a lot of folks over on the Fernbank side of Scott wished they could de-annex themselves from COD so their children could walk to school at Fernbank. Kids on the COD end of N. Parkwood used to play on Fernbank’s playground all the time. They lived closer to Fernbank than to Westchester. Too bad Parkwood didn’t ask to join COD then. There might have been an amicable trade.
I understand why the motivation for this petition appears to be driven solely by schools however there is more to it. The genesis of this effort began with a small group trying to determine what options we had considering external cityhood efforts which directly affected us. These included Briarcliff, Lakeside, future Franken-cities, and being annexed into Atlanta none of which we could control. After careful consideration (attending every possible cityhood meeting, meetings with everyone we could obtain relevant information from, countless hours of research, presentations to the neighborhood, going door to door to check the pulse) our neighborhood chose to approach Decatur. You all bring up valid concerns and I can’t argue (nor should anyone) with all the hypotheticals but here are a few facts: The Parkwood neighborhood does have a relatively small percentage of children who would enter the school system based on the number of homes. There has always been a very low real estate turnover rate for both the City of Decatur and the Unincorporated DeKalb sides of the Parkwoods. Based on multiple real estate agents reviewing the impact, there should be an increase in the floor price of smaller homes (350K – 375K) and a nominal increase to the average and above priced homes. The City of Decatur portion of the Parkwoods (has a few of years of data to go by) does not include a proportionately high percentage of school-age children. A detailed impact study has not been conducted but, based on estimates, this would immediately be a revenue positive annexation.
Increased taxes are being predicted as the future for Decatur because of the school system, but aren’t we close to the the state cap on millage rates already? I think I asked this on one of the other threads but I can’t remember which one.
Yes
We’re close but not at the limit yet. And the other area of wiggle room is the city could tax on a greater percentage of assessed value – I think currently it is at 40%. And of course assessments could be increased, but those are done by DeKalb County and based on my experience have been very static.
It would definitely be helpful to hear from city leadership about what our options are for increasing tax revenues. If there is a hard limit then that’s extremely important to know as we talk about annexation, school expansion, etc. In fact it would have been good to know before embarking on building out fancy rec centers, fire stations, and city administration buildings.
“And the other area of wiggle room is the city could tax on a greater percentage of assessed value – I think currently it is at 40%.”
Actually, Decatur already taxes at 50% of assessed value.
I wonder how many of the Parkwood residents wishing to be annexed know this and some other facts. Heck, I live here and didn’t know the City can exceed the state millage rate cap without putting it to a vote (not until I looked it up last night). We’ve been talking about an increase in school-age kids in Parkwood as a result of annexation, but I wonder if they know that their initial tax increase from joining Decatur will likely be followed almost immediately by another tax increase?
You’re right that it’s currently at 50%. Based on a conversation I had with the City Manager a few years ago, the assessment ratio can be adjusted up to 100%, so even though the school system is near the cap, taxes could be raised in this way. Though the city commission is the one who has to raise the ratio.
So, in theory, our taxes could double (or slightly more than double if the mil rate is maxed and the assessment ratio is set at 100%)? And this doesn’t account for reassessments based on our rapidly increasing property values.
But, since Decatur is a city school district, there is nothing preventing them from raising the millage rate either, except a commission vote. That’s my understanding of the law, anyway.
Seems like the increase from 40% to 50% some years back had to be approved by the state legislature.
Did a bit of reading and it seems city districts are exempt from having to have a referendum to go over the 20% cap. I should have already known that. So I guess we are looking at some tax increases in the near future.
brianc, you’re right about upcoming tax increases. At the joint meeting between the city commission and the school board in Aug or Sept, there was the discussion of the $85M bond referendum that’s needed to build out (double) the middle school and high school. The city commission did not allow the voters to vote on the referendum back in the fall, but we will likely see it this coming fall. And I think in that AJC blurb, or somewhere, Dr. Edwards acknowledged that the student numbers would need to be revised again to take into account the new downtown developments on the slate (so I’m pretty sure the amount will be even greater than $85M).
The more students we have, the more we need to build. And that’s scary. No one wants to see taxes go to a ridiculously high level. But buildings are expensive. And trailers aren’t free. Or all that cheap.
Definitely some good discussions happening here. As far as annexation goes, it has to be a tough debate for the City Commissioners. They basically have to look into annexation in order to raise city revenue, but even where they go after commercial property there will still be residential that comes in – and hence, more potential for school-aged children. If they don’t annex at all, it still doesn’t preclude parents with school-aged children from moving into the current properties. So if the main dilemma here is that the CSD schools are just “too-good” then I think that is a problem that can be countered with an equally good growth plan.
The other thing to consider from the viewpoint of the commissioners is that with all of the city-hood initiatives happening in DeKalb, COD might not have the ability to annex certain desirable areas before they are already blocked out. The City of Briarcliff map extends all the way to the current north, west and partial eastern border of COD, so if that city was allowed to move forward, it would leave COD severely limited on options. Take a look if you haven’t seen this in detail: http://briarcliffga.org/maps-documents/
Per this map, Briarcliff wants Parkwood as well. Thanks for sharing. I’d seen an earlier map but not this updated one.
It also looked like Briarcliff wanted most of Druid Hills? Not the Atlanta part, but all of the incorporated parts. This is off topic, but what do the residents of Druid Hills want to do? Does anyone know? Of course I realize Druid Hills is a very large neighborhood of several mini-neighborhoods.
And about CSD being “too good,” I know someone who says that “CSD is a victim of its own success.” Pretty much the same thing.
CH – you are absolutely correct that the City of Briarcliff would include all of Druid Hills. That was very purposeful on their part and with the 92,000 residents that they would incorporate, they wanted a large chunk of that to be associated with DH and with Emory.
Druid Hills at-large is currently looking at 3 options – 1) stay in unincorporated DeKalb, 2) support the City of Briarcliff or 3) annex into Atlanta. Currently, 30% of Druid Hills is already in Atlanta so by annexing the rest of the neighborhood they would be trying to unite that community under one city. And as you can imagine, the school debate is hotly contested within Druid Hills as well. You can imagine what would happen with the City of Atlanta schools if 12,000 properties from DH were suddenly annexed into that system.
Pete, while everything you said may be true, none of it is an answer to why CoD should annex Parkwood. First, why/how is Parkwoood part of a good growth plan? Second, why do we care if Parkwood ends up in Briarcliff? If that happens, we will still be neighbors as we are today. And nothing against Parkwood, but no residential neighborhoods are desirable annexation targets given the challenges CoD is facing.
DawgFan – removing the school debate for a moment, here are some great attributes that the Parkwood neighborhood would bring to Decatur:
– We own and maintain a 3.2 acre park that is open to the public and has seen a major overhaul in the past 4 years
– We have a very active garden club (neighborhood association) which sponsors block parties, community events and works with other local civic associations to organize major projects (crime management, street light additions, railroad track safe-crossings, tour of homes, fund-raisers, etc)
– We are currently part of the Druid Hills Historic Preservation and have the mind-set of wanting to maintain the look and feel of the 40’s and 50’s ranch-style homes. We have even had initial discussions with COD about creating a new historic district, should the annexation go through.
– We have an average home value that is high enough to add a net-positive tax revenue stream to COD, and also makes it hard to justify the cost of a tear-down just for the land
– We have a wide age-range of people, with many recent empty-nesters that have absolutely no desire to move out of the neighborhood
– We have a very natural boundary with the railroad tracks to the west of our community
– Many of the COD services, such as police, fire, school busing and waste pickup are already using our roads, so we do not extend the service area in a significant way
I can completely understand the concerns about the school crowding, but there are plenty of other factors here which make the Parkwood neighborhood a good long-term fit for Decatur.
Pete, I drive through Parkwood frequently, and it is a very nice neighborhood. The park and almost every single house and yard are very well maintained, and it is obvious that the residents take pride in both their homes and their neighborhood. However, I don’t think is advisable or possible or reasonable to remove the school debate from this discussion. In fact, I think it is the primary concern in evaluating any residential annexation, and when you balance school crowding vs. garden clubs, school crowding wins.
But I wouldn’t let any opposition you read on DM discourage you. Peggy Merriss and the Mayor no longer listen to CoD residents or CSD, so you will probably succeed.
I do have one question for you. If you weren’t facing involuntarily annexation into a yet to be formed city, would Parkwood still petition for CoD annexation?
DawgFan – ultimately I think the Parkwoods would have sought annexation into Decatur, but the timing could have been different if it weren’t for the city initiatives in DeKalb becoming so aggressive. The county has had a lot of issues as of late, and many of the residents here are seeking a long-term solution that protects the neighborhood.
One more question. Do you think you can use the current level of neighborhood coordination and collaboration to make Dekalb Co. repair the growing-larger-by-the-day potholes and dips on the Ponce end of E. Parkwood?
Have been watching the discussion on this and have a few comments that I haven’t seen mentioned already.
1) With the inflow of families into the city, housing prices have risen with presumably no end in sight. Eventually, this could turn Decatur into a city that is unaffordable for most people. That may be what some who want to maximize the value of their homes want, but this would not be consistent with the city’s character and welcoming culture. Adding a stock of 75+ well maintained homes in a desirable neighborhood would increase the supply of quality homes and help keep the city affordable.
2) There’s no debate that the schools are already bursting at the seams, and that the district is going to have to invest in new capacity–either by building new schools or by adding on to existing ones. Adding 8-10 kids doesn’t change that equation in the slightest. So, if the costs are inevitable, it’s to the district’s advantage to expand the property tax base as much as possible. Wouldn’t residents rather share the burden with more families, not fewer?
Sorry DK, but these homes are hardly “affordable” now. This is essentially a Druid Hills neighbhood with huge lots, zoned for one of the best DeKalb elementary schools.
“Adding 8-10 kids doesn’t change that equation in the slightest.”
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to project that there will be many more than 8-10 school-age kids in the neighborhood before Decatur can add new facilities.
brianc, +1.
From Decaturish: “You can formally report to the school board and superintendent if you like, but it’s my understanding they are well aware of it,” the mayor said.
They shouldn’t be notifying CSD — Baskett is right, CSD is aware — they should be asking CSD to report on the potential impact. City staff can ONLY analyze the impact on the smaller City part of things. The Commission should want the full picture.
CSD will need to do its own impact analysis sooner or later, so they might as well do it now and provide the Commission with the information they need to make an informed decision.
And I hope Judd will lead any study
Judd – The mayors comment does speak to the line of communication already open between the Parkwood team and the CSD. Also, the mayor did indicate they would be rely on information received from the CSD regarding the impact. Perhaps it didn’t come across in the article but the commission does want the full picture and it appeared much of that input would come from CSD.
I like Parkwood a lot, it is a beautiful neighborhood and already developed nicely. It has a neat park in the middle and lots of trees. My concern is that if we accept Parkwood, what about Forest Hills or any other large-ish scale residential annexation that wants to join in because of the schools. Can we say yes to Parkwood, but no to the south side because of the elementary school crunch on that side? Or by saying yes will we be setting a precedent that later forces us to take anybody that is within the circle that was drawn on the map by Peggy Merriss. Just wondering.
WP is looking at this from a larger point of view (thank you), not just from the point of view of this particular potential Parkwood annexation. The problem is that all of the residential annexations add up quickly, if you look at them in the aggregate. It’s not just one house here and there, one neighborhood here and there. It’s when you add that all up that it’s too much for the schools to handle.
The precedent issue is also an interesting one. I think that ppl who are generally ok with annexation are especially fine with Parkwood b/c the homes have nice real estate values. But not all of the areas surrounding the city have values that high, and would we let them in if they asked? (I guess it depends on whatever the criteria are for annexation, but we don’t seem to know the details about that, or if they exist.) Or would it turn into a class/economic-based decision, as in “well-off neighborhoods are fine, but those less so need not apply?” (And that gets really ugly really fast.) The Forest Hills area comes to mind, as well as the annexations on Conway and Midway. I guess that side of town in general. The unincorporated houses in between Decatur and Avondale Estates are not bad, but they’re definitely worth less since they’re not in the city.
Or even without the economic differences among the various groups petitioning for annexation, taking that out of the equation, when can we start saying no b/c the schools are too full? After two more annexations? After three more? I’d posit that our schools can’t handle any more at all right now, especially 76 houses at once.
In all honesty, at first I thought it was some kind of joke when I learned that Parkwood was asking to join Decatur. Like there was no way anyone would support it, from a school perspective. It seems that crazy to me to add more and more residential. If we annex some commercial and a bit of residential happens to come with it, that’s one thing. But adding large sections to the city that are just houses? I’m really still SMH.
The Parkwood neighbors also tried to annex 25 homes on East Lake Road and 8 homes on West Ponce de Leon. They weren’t successful but there may be another effort by another neighbor with young kids to annex the 8 homes on West Ponce de Leon into COD.
WP-You need not worry about Forrest Hills and the neighborhoods off of Katie Kerr. Avondale is planning on annexing these neighborhoods within the next year even though many folks in these neighborhoods would love a chance to be part of COD.
To even things up, how about a $50K ‘initiation fee’ per Parkwood household for joining COD? Think of it as an ‘administration fee’ or ‘shipping and handling’ or ‘baggage fee’. And Parkwood, if you act now, we will send you each a 2014 Decatur Run-With-The-Dogs t-shirt and an Indie-catur paper weight. Problem solved.
Traitor Joe, that’s pretty funny. So is your username!
With a reduction in the initiation fee for properties that come in with more than 55% tree canopy coverage.
While you’re at it, why not set up a wait list, like the one for the fancy swimming pool? Charge a non-refundable fee to be wait-listed for annexation into COD. That would weed out the serious aspiring Decaturites from the simple wannabes (and also create another little revenue stream, every little bit helps). But maybe it would actually weed them in… hmmm, not sure… who is it people want to keep out, again? I’m confused.
Since this thread is already too long, I didn’t read it. I’m just going to assume that it’s full of people wishing the Parkwoods good luck and welcoming them to the city should they succeed. That’s what I love about Decatur – our open arms and positive outlook! I mean, seriously, who wouldn’t want to be a part of such a lovefest?!?
J_T, you missed the posts that were scheduling the groundbreaking for the Great Wall of Decatur*.
*City of Decatur, of course.
A wall? But I wanted a moat!
Since the thread isn’t long enough for my taste … These are such oversized lots by Decatur standards. How do we know the city would not allow them to be subdivided?
These questions are being asked about the possible annexation of the unincorporated half of the neighborhood:
1. Will everybody sell to families with kids?
2. Will lots be subdivided?
Is it not logical to look at the COD half? Are people without kids selling? No. Have lots been subdivided? No. Do families have their kids in private school? Yes. People like living here for many reasons; the schools are a small part of the equation.
So why should you expect to see some dramatic difference if the unicorporated half is annexed? You won’t, so the City should look at long-term historical trends to answer the revenue positive/revenue negative question.
The same rational should be used to evaluate any other neighborhood (Forest Hills, etc) asking to be annexed. The key component is going to be property value = tax revenue. Parkwood has it.
I would expect the neighborhood make up to change dramatically if annexed. People with no kids will sell as prices rise -to families with kids. Those who live there now and send their kids to private school will now have an attractive “free” alternative. People with kids who want their kids to go to CSD will purchase houses in the neighborhood and push up prices.
Why does Parkwood want to be annexed? Because they expect things to be better as part of Decatur.
Why do realtors advertise $500,000houses inside Decatur by touting the schools. And $350,000 houses one block outside of Decatur by touting – close to Decatur without city taxes.
So I think it is certainly fair to look at it from the perspective of current residents, what is best for them and for the city of Decatur. IMHO – We don’t really gain by annexing Parkwood.
“Why does Parkwood want to be annexed? Because they expect things to be better as part of Decatur.”
From some of the residents who’ve posted, I’m not so sure this is the case. It seems just as likely that they expect things to be better as a part of Decatur than as a part of Lakeside or Brookhaven or whatever. This does not necessarily mean that they expect being a part of Decatur will be better than the way they have it now.
And to add a key point here – remember that the unincorporated portion of the Parkwood neighborhood is in the Druid Hills school system. That is not a bad system by any means and Fernbank in particular is excellent. So it isn’t as if people for the last 20 years have been looking at this neighborhood and thinking “well it would be a great place if only the schools were better”. The fact of the matter is that people have chosen to buy or sell in the Parkwoods for many reasons including an already very good school district. It’s hard to imagine that there will be a run on properties if we were annexed into Decatur based on the schools alone.
Parkwood Pete, but just remember we’ve had at least one post saying that if the Parkwoods were in Decatur and had CSD, his/her family would have seen it very differently. It’s hard to say that many others won’t see it that way.
Fernbank is attractive to ppl for different reasons. The families on North Parkwood who go to Fernbank like it bc Fernbank is basically right behind their houses. Location couldn’t be better for them. But clearly, as has been mentioned, there are a number of families now in the Parkwoods who opt for private schools. Why is that? Is it the quality of education beyond Fernbank for middle and high school? CSD is much more desirable when you look K-12, which could be a game changer for the neighborhood. And the city’s schools.
Renfroe is where we have it all over other school systems. It’s actually the only middle school, past or present, that I have heard of that the majority of students enjoy. Fernbank is a fine elementary school and is walkable for tons of kids. And DeKalb County traditionally has more proactive and less restrictive special ed services, although that may have changed in the last couple of years with the decline of all things DeKalb. IMHO, Druid Hills is as fine a high school as DHS; they are just different. Druid Hills has a more mature and allegedly better thought out and implemented IB program. DHS is smaller and cozier (for now) plus so walkable.
DeKalb special ed is far and above CoD, especially for the younger kids. Partially it is a matter of volume- more kids = more resources. Coralwood is a dedicated program and we have nothing to match it, for example. A friend of mine who is a special ed teacher in DeKalb but lives in CoD is actually considering moving back to DeKalb with her special needs child.
Not surprised.
nelliebelle1197, how frustrating for your friend. I know in CSD, if a teacher lives outside the district, s/he can bring his/her kids to Decatur for school. (I know a few teachers who do this.) Does it work that way in DeKalb, I wonder. Since she lives outside of the DeKalb school district but teaches in that system, could she bring her child along with her? I’m sure she’s done her research, though.
Having to move to solve this problem would be such a pain.
And yes, Coralwood parents LOVE Coralwood.
Yeah, BUT she wants him at Coralwood and there is no guarantee of placement. She works at several schools, and she does not want him in any of them!
I think that this depends a lot on what the exact situation is for the child with special needs you’re talking about. Our daughter has Down Syndrome, and we’ve been quite happy with CSD so far. We’re glad she can go to her local elementary school in inclusion classrooms (with extra dedicated parapro support), plus the occasional pullout session for speech therapy, OT, and some one-on-one attention to reading and math. But I can understand how a larger district like DCSS could offer better resources for some people, especially with Coralwood.
Allegedly better thought out and implemented IB program? Quite the unsubstantiated claim to throw out.
I know folks who have specifically researched IB programs in Georgia and they think highly of Druid Hills High School’s. It takes a lot of effort to get IB right in public high schools, harder than in private schools which select students for the type of program that they offer. BTW, I’m not talking about IB at the Middle or Elementary levels. That’s a whole other game and has been going on longer in CSD.
Thinking highly of Druid Hills’s program and calling it better thought out and implemented than the one at DHS are two vastly different statements. The former simply praises the work at DHHS, while the latter implies a deficit in the program at DHS and create a veneer of authority and knowledge through a combination of hearsay (I know people who) and judgement (better).
This part of the thread was discussing the relative attractiveness of DeKalb vs. City of Decatur schools for Parkwood residents, especially for N. Parkwood residents who live right by Fernbank. In my opinion, Renfroe is vastly preferable and the elementary schools are a wash–families at both rave about them. From the point of view of small warm community and walkability, I think DHS wins. In terms of teacher quality, I know fantastic teachers at both. Right now, in terms of IB, I’d pick DHHS, but that could change as the DHS program matures and we see how all the students, not just the diploma students, fare. Folks are free to post their opinions and substantiate them or not. N. Parkwood residents are free to do as much research as they want to do and make up their own minds. I’m sure they will.
Actually I am aware of two families in the COD part of Parkwood that choose to send their children to private schools. Imagine that – CSD is not the be all end all for some people. Who would have thunk it?
I know of one COD Parkwood family that left after the closure of Westchester; 4/5 didn’t work for them.
“Why do realtors advertise $500,000houses inside Decatur by touting the schools. And $350,000 houses one block outside of Decatur by touting – close to Decatur without city taxes.”
Examples? I think you are assuming a lot here. I took a quick look at actual recent sales near Parkwood, and a house just outside that neighborhood, on East Lake, sold for $568,000 last year. And it’s a 3/3 of only 2,200 square feet. So it seems to me this notion that Parkwood values will jump dramatically if annexed is wrong. Those properties are already worth quite a bit of money. A COD bump, if any, if going to be small, unless you are going to tell me that a similar home in COD would sell for much more than $568,000. I don’t believe it would.
Now just wait one second, DEM. These people keep repeating that the Parkwood homes will receive an undeserved $100k “COD bump” for nothing, so it must be true.
Oh right, I forgot . . .
But really, it’s not true. Trulia has a pretty handy feature that plots recent sales on a map, and if you zoom in on the Parkwood neighborhood, you see a bunch of fairly recent sales on both sides of the COD boundary. I see no discernable Decatur premium there at all, though you can’t compare homes on a highly detailed basis. (You get location, bed/bath, and square feet, a pretty good overall proxy.) I’d do a link but then I’d be caught in DM purgatory.
+1 DEM / jwl – This follows the info I mentioned above from the multiple real estate agents reviewing the impact stating there should be an increase in the floor price of smaller homes (350K – 375K) and a nominal increase to the average and above priced homes. There aren’t many 350K homes in either side of the Parkwoods. That combined with 50+ years of low turnover on both sides of the Parkwoods (COD and Uni Dekalb) makes me believe there may not be quite as much of a fire sale as being reported above.
Would the example you cite be zoned for Fernbank? That would explain the lack of significant price difference. Regardless, I think the arguments about a “Decatur bump” for nothing are overblown. What they are going to get is a large tax increase, larger than I’d guess they are expecting. And I’d guess we (Decatur) are going to get more school-age kids than the present numbers indicate.
I think that’s a fair point. An annexation into one of the proposed new cities would offer little but another layer of government, while COD offers CSD.
Here’s a question I’m hoping someone can answer. It sounds like the Parkwoods could only be annexed by Decatur if enough of the residents agreed. What if the City of Briarcliff were going after the Parkwoods (and not just talking about doing it)? Wouldn’t a majority of the residents have to agree? And it doesn’t sound like that would be the case.
Why can’t Decatur figure out its school overcrowding problem first and THEN review annexation? It doesn’t have to happen now.
That’s a good point but I’m assuming that the process of new cityhood may not play by the same rules as the process of annexation. Perhaps the City of Briarcliff can include Parkwood in its founding boundaries, regardless of how Parkwood residents vote, as long as it receives the required number of votes from the population as a whole. Parkwooders who vote no may be overwhelmed by the rest of Briarcliff’s voters if most of the latter vote yes.
AHID,
Correct
Hi, neighbors in Parkwood! I live in Oakhurst, I love to drive (slowly) through your little part of the world because you have nice big trees and I sometimes see bunnies on my way to work. I hope you get to join the City of Decatur, if that’s what you want. I like the city services even though (DON’T TELL ANYONE) we don’t have children, which seems to be the only reason some people live here. I’m not sure whether that makes us revenue neutral or whatever, but we do try to be nice neighbors and we wave when we pass by and I will buy stuff your kids have to sell for whatever it is kids do that for.
Welcome!
+1
The assumption that this will add only 10 children to the Decatur City schools is fundamentally flawed. Will the City of Decatur schools impact analysis study how many children under age 5 live in the Parkwood area? How many owners are retirement age and may be selling their homes in the near future? How many of the most recent home sales in the area have been made to families with small children? A positive decision on this request is likely to yield far more than 10 children in the next couple of years if we are talking about adding 76 multiple bedroom homes.
Yes, common sense would tell you it will likely add 50-75 kids to the system over the next few years. A number everyone may be ok with, but let’s not say 10 so it makes everyone feel good.
OK. Once again – listen carefully this time. One half of the Parkwood neighborhood is in the City now. Based on your logic, would we not expect everyone to sell their house the minute their youngest child graduates from HS and move down the street to a house with lower property taxes? Obviously people are not logical because this does not happen. People stay because they like living here for a whole host of reasons. This fixation with the Great City Schools of Decatur is ridiculous. If the City is smart, they will ask CSD to produce the data that shows the average number of CSD students in the City portion of the neighborhood over the last 30 years. Then they should extrapolate that data on the area asking to be annexed. If the home values are high enough to educate those students and provide the other services, annexation is a good idea. If not, don’t do it.
Thank you Smith, that is a very logical conclusion. And, interestingly enough, we have had discussions with the city of Decatur regarding the number of school-aged children on both the Decatur side and the DeKalb side of the Parkwoods. There are actually less current school-aged children on the Decatur side (less total children and a lower child/home ratio as well). So again, these fire-sale comments seem a little overboard.
I am neutral on the annexation, but with the upcoming reopening of Westchester, more families with kids may find this area desirable than they do currently.
Once again assumptions are often off target. The Parkwood neighborhood is actually closer to Oakhurst Elementary and the walk to Oakhurst is easier. The people I know on the Decatur side of Parkwood would prefer to stay at Oakhurst (that is not happening – Parkwood is zoned for Westchester in 2014-15)
But Westchester may still be a positive factor–it will be initially the smallest elementary school with good class sizes, the energy of a new school, and if the right principal is chosen, have talented, psyched teachers. Glennwood Elementary is an example of what a reopened elementary in CSD can be—real popular both with teachers and families. For Parkwood families, you have go along and across Ponce to get to Fernbank, so going up a Scott to nearby Westchester may not seem much farther.
My assumption, which is only speculation which is why I qualified it with “may”, was that people moving into Decatur with young children might not currently perceive Parkwood as desirable as other neighborhoods that are closer to their schools.. That may or may not change with the opening of Westchester. I was thinking more of the appeal to prospective homebuyers that a new neighborhood school might have, rather than attending an overcrowded school. Of course, there is the possibility that Parkwood would become less desirable too. Perceptions may not match reality. Neighborhoods in Decatur have changed in desirability over the years and there is no reason to think they won’t continue to. When I moved to Decatur, the north side neighborhoods (particularly the Great Lakes) were thought to be the most desirable places to live. Oakhurst certainly was not at the time, but now it is one of the most desirable neighborhoods. Perceptions have changed.
I am not good at predictions–I thought the recession would result in house prices going down in Decatur and CSD being flooded with students whose out-of-work upper middle class parents couldn’t afford private school anymore. But, I’m going to go ahead and go on the record for saying that I think the West Side of Decatur is the next family/baby boom area. If Parkwood is annexed, it would be part of that boom although the boom will hit the Westchester/Coventry/Chelsea Heights area earlier and harder. If the boom has already hit and I’m out of date…….see, I was right.
“If the City is smart, they will ask CSD to produce the data that shows the average number of CSD students in the City portion of the neighborhood over the last 30 years.”
Actually, if the city was smart, they wouldn’t give a damn about enrollment data from 1987, 1994 or even 2004, and they sure as hell wouldn’t limit the sample size to the Parkwood homes lying within CoD. They would look at the citywide enrollment data from the last few years and the current projections, and extrapolate those numbers to Parkwood. And, listen carefully this time – stop treating us like we are stupid to question the “only 8 kids live here” comment – it will go up.
I think for the very soon time frame, CSD should assume the same number of children per household as similar streets like Pinetree. Pinetree and Parkwood both have some fabulous single story homes, and that works well for those that want to stay in their homes for their lifetime, not just when they have kids. (no stairs to the master bedroom). I agree it is not the same as a large annexation to the historically economically challenged areas south of town. But there will be SOME renovations and more kids pretty soon if Parkwood changes to CoD, more so than if they stay unincorporated.
I also believe that right now there IS a difference in price point for the Parkwood houses in CoD and not. This was not always the case, but it is there today. I toured a house with a friend just outside the city on w parkwood for sale a few months ago and the realtor touted it as “a good value compared to CoD.”
The big issue is that all over the city: there is amazing growth across the board, and small houses are being rapidly enlarged or torn down for larger ones to make room for a higher density of children. The data from the 2010 census is already way out of touch. It is going to be our biggest challenge as a city to keep the schools attractive and high performing without taxing the empty nesters or no-kid citizens into moving out and selling to families with school age kids.
We need to maintain and attract a diversity of ages within our city. In some ways, annexing Parkwood would be a step towards meeting that diversity since the many of the homes are high quality single level, attractive to the aging in place set. We need to be extra careful with what we annex, and I am sorry that people take it so personally when issues are discussed on this board.
“It is going to be our biggest challenge as a city to keep the schools attractive and high performing without taxing the empty nesters or no-kid citizens into moving out and selling to families with school age kids.”
Couldn’t agree more. As a no-kid citizen myself, I can tell you that others like us have already started selling, because there really doesn’t seem to be any end in sight for all of the planned spending increases (including potential tax hikes) that the City justifies by pointing to the needs of the school system, which already gets the lion’s share of our tax dollars. This is exacerbated by the gung-ho COD parents whose tunnel vision focuses on schools, schools, schools–and fails to take into account that killing the (no-kid) geese that lay the golden eggs is eventually going to catch up with the City, and what will happen then? Some of these folk may tell themselves it won’t matter, since their kids will likely have aged out of the system–but they’re wrong, because their own property values will be affected if our taxes are too high, our schools are too crowded, or both. Like you, WP, I don’t want to seem unwelcoming, by any means–but I WOULD like to see more of a concerted plan to deal with this, instead of the City’s “we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it” approach.
And that, my friends, is Number Wang.
Yes. We knew going in that we were going to be paying relatively hefty tax bills for a school system that we don’t have kids to send to, but that was ok because of the other benefits of living in downtown Decatur (the primary one for us being the ability to live a less car-dependent lifestyle). But there is a limit.
I agree that taxes are too high in Decatur and everywhere else. Let’s cut ‘em all by 50%, across the board. For starters.