Residents Robbed at Gunpoint in Oakhurst Business District Last Thursday Night
Decatur Metro | April 20, 2011A Oakhurst resident wrote into a local message board earlier this week to relay a very troubling story about how she and her husband were held up at gunpoint in front of One Step at a Time. According to her note, “People were on patios and Jazz had only been over for a while.”
Decatur Police’s Deputy Chief Keith Lee just confirmed the event to me and sent along this press release…
On Thursday April 14, 2011 at approximately 11:50 pm the Decatur Police Department officers responded to a report of an armed robbery near 630 East Lake Drive. The victims were walking towards their vehicle when they were approached by a male. The suspect brandished a handgun and robbed them. The victims dropped their belongings on the ground, where they were retrieved by the suspect. After retrieving the victims’ purse and wallet from the ground he fled the area on foot. Neither victim was injured during the robbery.
The suspect is described as: Gender – Male, Height – 6’1”, Weight – 180 lbs., African American, Late 20’s to Early 30’s, Slim
This incident is being actively investigated by the Decatur Police Department. Anyone having any information concerning this matter is encouraged to contact Investigator J. Vandiver @ 404 373-6551.
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Great. Guess it’s time to start going concealed-carry in my own neighborhood.
If you were in this situation, you would probably be dead now. If you have to reach for a gun after the perp has one drawn on you, it’s too late. It sounds like the victims did the correct thing.
I agree with Mises. I am licensed to carry concealed (begin the stereotyping…now), and in my training classes, I learned that in this type of situation, trying to bring your own weapon to bear will get you killed (even assuming you have the skills, the speed, and the willingness to shoot someone). Give them your stuff; it’s not worth escalating into a gun battle that will most likely not go your way.
Except for those multiple hold-ups that were stopped in East Atlanta last year because the person had a concealed weapon. Every situation is different and therefore no blanket statement one way or another should be espoused. But I would rather have it with me just in case than not have it at all.
Hate to admit, I thought of those instances too.
“Every situation is different and therefore no blanket statement one way or another should be espoused.”
Truer words were never said, and I agree I would rather have it with me than not. I felt this story had enough detail to make that statement, but you have a valid point, especially regarding the East Atlanta robberies.
When I got my license some years ago, I thought long and hard about my ability to use it against another human. I still don’t know the answer, and I hope never to have it tested.
I hope you never have to make the choice, but If you pull it out you’d better be ready to use it for keeps. Too bad we have to think about such things.
Sorry sport, but math is against you. Yes, the Thrashers do win some games, but betting on them to win will lose you money.
Betting on yourself to win a quick draw contest, with the opponent’s gun already draw, can cost you your life. You’re gambling that the perp won’t fire, because if he kills you the state will kill him back, and that in that moment of uncertainty you can kill him right away.
Given all that, if you were the perp, what would you do? You’d fire. And the citizen would be dead in mid-draw.
I was wondering just this thing earlier. Is there a Freakanomics study or something similar on this?
Absolutely right. 9 times out of 10, they just want to grab and run, so make it easy for them and go home safe. You can replace anything in a purse or wallet, you know. Just go home and start calling to cancel everything you can. I carry very little in my purse, and I have all of the phone numbers necessary to call. You may even want to carry two purses/wallets, so you can throw one down and keep the other (hidden) one. I’m really sorry to hear about this incident :-((
There are two types of people; those that hope and pray that nothing bad happens to them (unarmed and surrender) and those that take measures to ensure that no harm comes to them (armed). I don’t have a problem with either type, but it’s a little silly to tell another how they should behave in certain situations.
That comment was supposed to go under Dana’s post, but it applies here to I guess.
Thanks. I appreciate your input no matter how wrong you are.
What’s your reason for thinking Mises and Token Republican are so wrong?
Because as everyone knows, simply carrying a gun makes you ALL POWERFUL, prevents anyone from messing with you, and SOLVES ALL PROBLEMS.
Silly.
Because they comment without knowing me at all.
Don’t we all comment on other people’s posts without knowing them? We anonymously put ourselves out there and make comments, and others respond to them, all without knowing the person.
Please take a course in the psychology of lethal force before you begin to carry a weapon.
Eh, let John Wayne get shot.
Not sure if you know this, but unarmed people have been shot during a robbery as well. Could just as easily say “eh, let Michael Moore get shot.”
Of course, I know that–fact is in reality on the street guns attract other guns, in arguments or confrontations, but if a guy walks up to you with a gun pointed at your gut you will not have time to draw (John Wayne, cowboy) your weapon and fire before he shots you. It really is that simple. Gun owners have to let their fragile little egos go, and their credit cards and some cash, or get shot.
Yes, if you own a gun you have a “fragile little ego”. I cannot even begin to understand the absurdity of that comment.
Ok, the guns-blazing folks here seem to give off this air of not only protecting themselves–from other gun owners–but, because they own guns, they have this over arching need to punish the criminals themselves. Big talking, macho, fragile egos that feel the need to kill over what’s in their wallets. Perhaps I was hasty in saying that all gun owners are that, for that I apologize.
No problem. For me, it is just about preservation; it has nothing to do with taking out a bad guy. Though, that would be a bonus…
How about the psychology of watching a guy bleed out from the head right in front of you after he is shot for no reason other than money? Has that happened to you? It has happened to me, but I love the “statistics” regarding 9 out of 10 times, and about the math being against me. I would rather be a victim fighting for myself than a woe-is-me victim who simply counted on the guy robbing me to do what’s right!
I’ve never seen anyone shot, but I have been robbed at gunpoint. Oh, and I don’t own a gun, oh, and, I’ve never been shot. You can cancel your credit cards.
You guys keep assuming that they are just going to rob you and leave you alone!! It is quite possible, as it happens all the time, that they will take your stuff and then shoot you dead. This is a chance I am unwilling to take if I have to the opportunity to do something about it.
You are right–if robbed you can only hope that the criminal is not someone who wants to also shoot somebody (but I could argue that in the US that’s a hope you may have every day, with all sorts of folks that you meet). I can only speak from experience: each time I’ve robbed all they wanted was money.
But the question remains, will you have enough time to pull your gun out and shoot before he does? (Or, better yet, will he stay put while you run home, grab your gun from your gunsafe, and run back to shoot him?)
That is “each time I’ve been robbed…” (The typo kind of changes my point.)
I’ve only been robbed at gunpoint once but that’s enough of a data set for me. Wouldn’t care to experience it again simply for the sake of scientific analysis. Here’s what I did when I saw the gun: went into total blind panic. I tossed the guys my purse, husband handed over his wallet, the gun guy and his partner bolted. Miami, Christmas morning, about one o’clock,1988.
(I got the purse back, they had tossed it. The bag itself was worth way more than its contents.)
Even with training and practice I don’t think I could ever be composed enough to use a gun effectively in that situation. All I could think was Don’t provoke them, Don’t let this become a home invasion, Don’t add anything to the situation.
Damn, how many times have you been robbed! Like i said, it’s situational. In some situations, pulling the gun would not be a good move, in others, maybe.
The other assumption that seems rampant is that everything becomes some kind of quick-draw shoot out. Nothing says you have to out draw anyone. The fool robbing you is Forcing you to give him something. Casually or nervously reaching for a gun looks exactly like casually or nervously reaching for a wallet…especially a wallet with a concealed pistol.
They make a wallet that can conceal a pistol or a pistol that can fit into a wallet?
http://www.gunnersecurity.com/holster-Kel_Tek_wallet-1.htm
Joe, Holy Moses! I think it looks like a leather covered staple gun. Ummm, staple GUNS! Now, I get it.
One persons self-preservation is another persons idea of passing the problem on to the next guy. A bad guy with a gun will likely do bad things with it…if not to me, then maybe to the next. Given a chance to make things better, I’ll try.
my neighbor was robbed at 1pm in the afternoon while mowing his grass, right down the street from oakhurst, in Kirkwood. He was then shot 3 times; spent 4 months in the hospital, thankfully recovered, and now has to endure a trial – which BTW begins this week at the courthouse if anyone is interested!
All because he was mowing his grass and didn’t have anything to give up to the robber except a weekeater; that wasn’t good enough, so he was shot!
I bet the gun that you drop on the ground is way better than the one the perp is pressing against your temple.
Yikes, this is totally FUBAR.
had to look that up but i couldn’t agree more
I see a lot of “petty” theft crimes (stolen car parts, stolen bikes, things stolen out of cars, yards, and off porches) reported on the Oakhurst Community message board, but I don’t see these reported anywhere else, and wonder whether people tend to just accept this sort of thing as part of living in a close-in neighborhood. If so, then that’s too bad– people shouldn’t take it as a given that crime is inevitable just because one lives in an urban area. The City has a fire station in Oakhurst– maybe it’s time to put an adjunct police station there as well.
There used to be one, right? In the current ‘Nectar’ space or whatever it’s called now.
I thought so, but wasn’t sure– I mean, why wouldn’t there be one there now, just as Oakhurst’s population is growing pretty rapidly? Where’s Steve when we need his City expertise?
The Oakhurst substation was closed because crime (which had previously been considerably higher) dropped to levels consistent, more or less, with other Decatur neighborhoods. In its heyday, that station was practically the only operational storefront in the Village.
Very true. The only things up there when we moved in were the police, the cleaners and the Hop & Shop! And the drug drop in the vacant lot next door.
While this sucks, someone pulled a gun on my husband right in front of our house a few years ago (he’s actually pretty tough and just told the guy to f*&% off. Which the guy did) and a Hop & Shop clerk- just a kid- was murdered in an armed robbery a few years back.People tend to forget Decatur is not a “suburb” in the isolated way that one traditionally thinks of surburbs, but a town on the edge of a major metropolitan area with some tougher pockets within walking distance.
“People tend to forget Decatur is not a “suburb” in the isolated way that one traditionally thinks of surburbs, but a town on the edge of a major metropolitan area with some tougher pockets within walking distance.”
Too right, Nell– which is why I think Oakhurst needs its own precinct again!
A visible police presence in an area where there are pedestrians carrying money is needed. I rarely see a police car around Oakhurst and the shop area “feels” very safe during daylight hours. It is unsettling to hear of a robbery in the main area of Oakhurst. Perhap we can request more frequent police patrols during event and weekend nights.
While we’re on the subject of alarming, random attacks on regular citizens just going about their business, check out the article on the AJC.com this afternoon about an apparently gang-related attack on MARTA passengers this weekend. Report says that about two dozen teenagers boarded a train early Sunday morning and beat and robbed two passengers. MARTA’s response as reflected in the article is, er . . . less than reassuring. I’ve been riding MARTA daily for 30+ years, but this gives me second thoughts.
Yes, I read about the MARTA attack this morning and was horrified. Now this.
On the other side of the law and order equation, there was a dramatic arrest made yesterday evening on Ponce de Leon right where Scott Blvd merges into it. Two or three Decatur P.D. cars, three or four DeKalb P.D. cars, an officer in an unmarked car, lots of shouting to the effect of “put your hands where I can see them.” Anyone else see that or know what it was about? Happened at about 6:45.
stolen car recovery
Thank you, po-po.
My friend was nearly killed by a rage full driver on the interstate. I am going to stop driving.
Heard about this Friday morning and I’m surprised it’s taken this long to hit the blog.
Been trying to confirm. But I only heard about it hmm…yesterday?
Exactly DM. Armed robbery happens late Thursday. News hits Oakhurst Yahoo Group message board Monday. Wednesday District 2 Commissioner Patti Garrett shares on same message board the news release from Deputy Chief Richards. And then it appears here.
Are there others concerned that it took this long for the information to get out to the local residents and business people in a mass communication? And at that it was the victim who came forward to share – thank you.
So how will this be handled differently the next time?
Are you serious? I think it is great that any information is disseminated by the police & the city on an isolated crime at all. And it’s a nice courtesy tnat DM provides this kind of info…
“Are you serious? I think it is great that any information is disseminated by the police & the city on an isolated crime at all. And it’s a nice courtesy tnat DM provides this kind of info…”
Rather snide comment Nellie. Armed robbery is not a petty crime even if it remains isolated. Most likely hundreds of people visited Oakhurst eateries on the following Friday, Saturday and even Sunday nights. I don’t think it’s out of order to suggest an examination of the delayed communication in this specific situation. The perp could repeat the scenario on subsequent nights, and alerting the neighborhood and “regulars” to the business district just serves to keep eyes open.
And yes, we all appreciate the communication provided by DM. In no way was I slashing DM or Patti Garrett. Merely suggesting devising a more expedient communication. I do not understand your criticism.
I think it was your “Exactly DM.” that threw Nellie off. I read it incorrectly the first time too.
I believe you raise a valid point. Not that it negates anything you ask but I believe the time-line was: residents mugged Thursday, resident posts on message board yesterday and then Patti and I put it out within 10 minutes of each other today. I posted at 2:27p and she posted at 2:37p.
I actually followed up with the Deputy Chief about an hour before the release was put out, since I had inquired about it shortly after it was posted on the message board yesterday.
As I see it, you can look at this two ways. First, why didn’t DPD put out a release sooner? I don’t know the answer to this. Has a new communications officer been hired since Juanchella left? The Deputy Chief may have more important things on this plate. It’s hard for us to know this.
But we can also ask, where were the tipsters? FMFats said he heard about this last Friday, so it was obviously making the rounds. But I didn’t hear anything about it until it was posted on the message board. So, I’m not sure where the breakdown was this time. Generally the rumor mill is much more efficient!
DM is right. The “Really?” comment seemed very snide in itself and I wasn’t quite understanding why you were slamming on people. Obviously, you didn’t mean it, but we just opened a whole box of miniature knights so I felt the need to rush to the rescue of DM’s honor.
BTW, I said isolated, not petty. Last I looked, those were not synonyms
The lack of communication by the DPD is inexcusable.
There is an armed robber at large in the Oakhurst neighborhood and no one saw fit to alert the residents and business owners…except the victim…days later. I can’t understand why anyone would defend the DPD for this. If this was a rape would you feel any differently?
Thank you.
I wanted to post “Exactly” but then some would not understand that as agreement.
How dare you say “Thank you.”!!!
;o)
On another note, there seems to be an uptick on the bike-riding drug mule guys around Pharr Rd and Fayetteville Rd. Looks like drug activity is back at the brick apt bldg at F’ville and Gordon St.
That building’s being leveled in short order, subdivided into two standard lots, assuming it passed the City Commission Monday night. So that should help.
How do you recognize someone as a “bike riding drug mule guy”? I’m not challenging, I honestly want to know. I walk on that end of Fayetteville Road frequently.
He’s talking about me, STG. I’ve been outed.
Because, smalltowngal, I’ve lived on that end of Fayetteville for over 12 years and have worked from home the majority of that time. I have observed time and time again, the same few older men on road bikes come down Pharr Rd., turn on Fayetteville and go directly into the brick apt building on the corner. They stay less than 5-10 minutes and then return the same way they came. This happens over and over in a day with the same guys. A few years back I started following them back down Pharr and saw them go to a small house across EastLake past the church. Over and over. I walked my dogs past that house several times and saw people approach that same house, reach under a rock at the curb and retrieve something. I was in contact with the DPD and soon after a major raid was made on that house complete with helicopters and 8 guys spread out in cuffs on Pharr Rd. The DPD has known for years that there is drug selling going on in the apt bldg. So, smalltowngal, I think I know what I’m talking about and you have no clue just by walking down the street every once in a while. Open your eyes and be observant. You can’t trust everyone.
A little harsh on STG, dude, she was just asking so that she could be better informed. ‘I think I know what I’m talking about’ is tad on the defensive side.
I apologize, STG. I read your post too quickly plus too much caffeine! Forgive me!
Cheers, dude. Your genteel reaction made my day.
Yesterday I was at the intersection of 2nd avenue and Oakview, about to turn right to head toward Hosea Williams, and I saw three older guys on bikes converge, something small change hands, and then they split. Wonder if that was a drug deal going down…
Pretty good chance that’s what you saw.
So Decatur to have our drug deals by bicycle! If this was L.A., it would be big vehicles with dark windows. In New York, it would be near the subway.
We are an earth friendly city
as for the carry & draw vs give the criminal what they want argument,
on one side, giving them what they want and not having any consequences will only encourage them and lead to bigger crimes IMO.
I’m not saying decatur & oakhurst should turn into the wild west either.
I’m pro CCW as I’ve had one for a decade now, yet I think GA should institute a requirement like other states where completion of a firearm safety and training course is mandatory before getting a CCW. While some of us may not need it, the majority does. I’ve met many people with CCWs who can’t wait for their “rambo” moment, but 99% of them have never had a gun in their face, seen combat, or understand what happens to you mentally after having to return fire/take a life.
Most people in the situation where they have to draw their own weapon against a criminal and stop the threat will puke afterwards. I’ve seen few who haven’t.
a few times in over 30 years I’ve had situations happen where someone tried to rob me or car jack me. all resulted in a no win for the criminal. All without firing a shot. Drawing my weapon worked, but no one should draw their weapon unless they are ready to fire and deal with the consequences.
I’ve seen some people at the range cannot hit the broad side of a barn, I hope they never get into this situation as I don’t want to see strays go into a house behind the criminal.
I’m for everyone who wants to and legally can to own weapons, but only with the proper training.
Agree on every point. Well, maybe not the final point. Someone who feels in danger should not be precluded from buying a weapon. I do think they should get training, but not as a requirement to purchase…just as common sense. Concealed carry…yes, make training a requirement.
Training requirements are a short path to restriction. If you look at the offers of what goes with them when posed as bills in the General Assembly, you’ll see that the training requirement argument isa n end run around adding restrictions. More so if the offer of quid pro quo of the addition of training requirements for a second tier GFL and lifting of many restrictions for carry locations, suddenly the training requirement is no longer enough.
DeKalb County’s attempts to restrict GFL (now GWL license renewals and issues) is another distinct example.
I took a 2-day training course before I got a permit for concealed carry in another state. Worth every penny and every minute. Lots to learn if you’re going to have a gun, not just how to shoot. You need to know how to dismantle and clean the gun, select ammunition, and PRACTICE periodically at a shooting range.
Before everyone loses their mind over this (too late), when was the last armed robbery in Oakhurst? Just looking for some perspective on this. Judging by the responses, this doesn’t happen very often.
I bet we have more trees falling on houses around here than armed robberies. By a longshot.
And this is why I always carry my (concealed) chainsaw with me.
Tee Hee. Is it your wallet-size one?
*guffaw* I love that mental image.
I totally LOLed at that!
That’s a good point. One of the unfortunate problems with any kind of media coverage of crime is that it creates a perception that crime is worse than it is.
However, with that said, we (close-in ATL in general) may be in for an uptick in these crimes because certain groups have taken over the drug trade, forcing the traditional players to turn to these petty (in terms of their profit) street crimes.
Probably all of that sounds like gibberish, but if reported it the way I heard it, it would sound racist.
“I bet we have more trees falling on houses around here than armed robberies.”
Actually, I’d make the comparison to another crime: D.U.I. If every DUI got reported, I wonder what community reaction would be? I don’t have any stats at hand, but I’d be willing to wager that far more people are victims of drunk drivers than robbers, whether it be mere insurance costs, bodily injury from a collision, or fatality.
i’ve got my concealed carry permit which i haven’t exercised … yet with my 40, but maybe its time to also get my wife and baby their permits, my baby getting a baby Glock and holster on our BOB – WTF!
seriously though, these stupid thug animals need to be taught a lesson to stay away
remember folks also that its a good idea to have the Decatur Police non-emergency # in your cell phone, because if you call 911 it may go to Atlanta (where you’ll probably be on hold)
thanks for mentioning that AJC article about marta, i had no idea. guess it’s time to re-read the concealed carry laws about marta and the airport rental car area (i take it to get my rental cars on trips)
These posts make for an interesting read. I had no idea so many Decatur residents were ‘packing heat’ at the local library, yogurt shops, and post office.
What do you do when you want to hit the pool?
Has it ever ‘went down’ at the grocery?
Brace yourself . . . what about kids in the house?
What do you do when you want to hit the pool?: That comment made me giggle. Do we need metal detectors now at our City pools and Venetian? Check those strollers? Require Speedo suits for boys/men instead of baggy trunks?
Surprised few are mentioning the economy. First thing I thought when the economy collapsed was “Oh boy, crime is going to come back to Decatur in a big way”. It wasn’t that long ago that many, many homes even on the NORTHside of Decatur, even in the trendy Great Lakes neighborhood, had bars on the doors and windows.
I was and wasn’t surprised at the number of people packing. We Americans love our guns.
Good question, Troll. On a more general note, I would be curious to know how many Decatur residents own guns. I know our town has a reputation for leaning left, but I learned long ago that left/right/middle stereotypes are worthless, especially with regard to guns.
As for your question about kids…we have two children in the house, which is why we also have gun safes. The best kind to get are the ones that unlock using fingerprint scanning.
And for those of us who do own, have you checked out the new range on Zonolite Road? Really nice people there.
Do you know of anywhere reasonably close where one could practice with a shotgun? I’m assuming it would have to be an outdoor range.
That place somewhere around emory will be opening a rifle range soon.
Walrus, Guns, Emory? I’m worried.
Haha! Well played Veg, well played.
Quickshot’s on Zololite Road near the old Channel 46 station.
http://www.quickshotshootingrange.com/
Open early and late for a gun range. They have a pistol length range that’s rated for shotguns and rifles in terms of backstop. The’y ll have a 25 yard range up soon. Shotguns are allowed.
Bah, Zonolite Road.
Troll, I wouldn’t suggest packing at the local library. The range of “public gathering” locations has been reduced but “government building” in 16-11-127 is still very open ended. The discussions as to if Libraries are off limits on GP.O’s forums yields quite a varied response from various learned members of the law enforcement community (a DA, an ADA, a Solicitor, a former cop and now Lawyer, a Chief Deputy).
http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=58625
Post offices are also arguably off limits.
So what has everyone been telling their kids who are old enough to walk around town without adults? Tried to have that talk last night but realized I didn’t have my story down pat.
– Always walk with buddy (but hard to do coming home from school because everyone leaves at different time because of clubs, meeting with teachers, sports, etc.)
– No late night walking
– If gun is pointed at you, give them what they want immediately and leave
– However, if terrorist, then resist…..?
– Make noise, yell Fire, yell call 911, run to nearest house: Is this only if threatened, but no gun? Or even if gun used?
– Call 911 afterwards plus Mom/Dad/other adults
Do RMS or DHS offer any student safety courses or training?
I’d like to see this information outlined, too. Not just for kids but for everyone. By someone who has statistical evidence to support the guidelines, or professional police experience, not just by someone who would prefer to go down blazing. (That’s not meant to be an attack on any poster here, I simply would prefer to play the percentages.)
Our soccer team was just gettting to the U Joint after a late night game and witnessed the aftermath of the robbery. The folks looked pretty shaken. I’m sure we would all be in that situation. On the plus side, there were multiple cops and firefighter personnel in evidence, providing comfort and making everyone feel safer for the moment. Makes me pause for thought, I’m in that same spot almost once a week. I don’t have permit, but even if I did I wouldn’t be carrying in my soccer shorts! I think I’ll stick to the classic idea of staying in a group (with the soccer team) and avoiding being alone.
I own a handgun and have thought of getting a CCW permit (for road trips to isolated rural areas, not for carrying around town). So I’m not categorically anti-gun. But I can’t for the life of me imagine having anything in my purse or pockets that would be worth escalating a sidewalk holdup into a shootout in a populated area, i.e., people out on patios, walking around. I can only hope most of my neighbors feel the same.
let me comment again on my prior post. although i have a CCW permit, i had basically got my handgun and concealed permit just mainly for home defense purposes (there were some atlanta/other area home invasions/etc going on previously).
i mainly posted that cause i am so PISSED about the crime and it’s threat to the baby boom and highly family friendly envt we have around here and how much progress in the area has had – this is why we moved here.
i really don’t want to or intent to walk around “carrying” (grocery/pool/etc), cause it would most likey lead to other problems
probably an over reaction, but i had gotton both in response to events of last few years and also being able to protect my family with the “nuclear option” if necessary in the worst case (like a home invasion to protect my wife and baby from a gun wielding thug entering our home – which has happened recently in atlanta).
we have a gun safe also with multiple tamper features also, to prevent any risk of kids finding it
plus, the baby-Glock comment is just funny (they actually call the smallest Glock to baby glock)
we do gotta find a way to keep these people away and from doing these things
As for potential solutions,
Is DPD going to have more patrol cars driving through the area?
Do we need brighter or more streetlamps in the specific/surrounding area from the robbery?
Do we need another cell phone tower in oakhurst to prevent cell 911 calls from going to CoA / Dekalb?
Perhaps standalone emergency phones with blue lights on top, i.e. ones at college campuses that dial directly to Decatur PD?
Does DPD have a new comms officer to help spread information quickly?
perhaps have a weekly local news thread on here similar to FFAF but let people post local crime,etc?
I’m sure there are more possible solutions
Please no weekly crime report on this blog, DM. If people want crime reports, perhaps those people can lobby the city to email them or create a list-serv like they have in Candler Park.
To the sheeple naysayers who make excuses to make themselves feel better about being unarmed:
It’s my life, my gun, my choice, and my chance that I will take if robbed at gunpoint. Good for you if being unarmed makes you feel safer. While I do know that a gun will not make me invincible nor will it enable me to win in every circumstance (your tired and silly strawman argument), having my gun rather than not having it, does at least give me more options than you.
I prefer having the choice of determination, and rather not rely on the good graces of an armed robber hoping he will leave me alone once he gets my possessions.
Also, some robbers use a knife or crowbar. Having a gun would make that situation a definite advantage for me, but I guess you unarmed sheep like to lay down for robbers using lesser weapons than guns, too.
What if you were to shoot a bystander while attempting to defend yourself? How does that factor into the “my choice” equation?
I don’t have a strong opinion on guns either way, but I see little evidence that it’s such a cut-and-dry argument.
I hear you and all factors need to be taken into consideration (even if in a split second), but come on, how many “bystanders” are usually around during an armed robbery?
It’s really best to ignore anyone who pops up with “my rights”, “my choice” kind of arguments. When the crux of an argument is “my rights” without any sort of evidence or intellectual or rhetorical foundation, the speaker tends to not truly understand or recognize the larger concepts of “rights” outside his own preception of HIS particular rights as he chooses to define those. Your rights and opinions don’t even enter into his definitions. Don’t bother.
+1
Is this comment about guns or abortion?
Whoa!! That ought to wake up the chipmunk.
God help us, don’t get us started.
Ok, I’ll try to address this in a rational manner as possible.
Defensive gun uses RARELY result in collateral damage like you’re implying here. Depending on who you ask, there are anywhere from ~108,000 Defensive gun uses to 2.5 Million defensive gun uses annually. Some of the difference in numbers results from the methodology of the study (the low order number was performed by the FBI who had their pollers identify the study origins as such (many people would be disinclined as they may not have known if their actions were legal) to studies that don’t rely upon the discharge of the weapon but only on the presence and threat of deadly force as a response to the criminal act.
Conversely, there are ~600-800 or so accidental shootings per year (CDC WISQARS). That number has been holding steady for years. Looking at CDC data, the high number is 824 in 1999 and 613 in 2007. Mind you, that’s all forms of unintentional firearms deaths. On the other hand there are on average ~300-350 justified homicides per year. Clearly, there’s a disparity between the ~300 deaths and 108,000 low order Defensive gun use.
Not every defensive use of a firearm results in a shooting and the injury of the offender. Many offenders, when presented with a victim who does not lay down and yield tend to flee at the first chance. Criminals do NOT want a stand up fight.
In a defensive gun use, collateral damage is a risk. Nothing in life is a sure thing. I’d argue that we, as a society are FAR more worried about a very rare event with a lot of IF’s and ignore a much larger problem of accidental deaths in automobile/traffic related deaths (42,401 in 1999 trending up to 43,943 in 2007).
People who practice with guns tend to be very mindful of backdrops and the like. There’s a general trend that people who have Firearms Carry Licenses tend to practice more than police do who are required to carry per their jobs. Remember, GWL carriers are doing so voluntarily and by choice, that adds an aspect of preference over and above the job requirement. I have personally seen a GBI agent practicing for qualifications at the range and was appalled at her slow fire accuracy. She was barely on the paper half the time at 7 yards, that’s horrid. I’ve had new shooters at the range doing better than that (hand sized groups at 7 yards).
In closing, I add that YES collateral hits on people NOT the perpetrator of the initial crime act are sometimes hit, this goes for whether or not it’s citizens or police. Given some of the news reports I’ve seen of police involved shootings, you REALLY ought to be worried more about various police agencies. Decatur’s guys have their heads on their shoulders because they’re a small department and can be choosy (they also have very competent leadership), the larger departments, like DeKalb and APD, not so much. I’d put ANY person I know with a GWL up against the average NYPD officer if news reports of their police involved shootings (shots fired to hits and the validity of the shoots) are any indication of firearms competency.
In short, I think you’re vastly over-estimating the risks of a collateral hit on a bystander and underestimating the risk to the victims of the crime. A mugging is one thing, a rape, kidnapping or murder? That’s a whole ‘nother matter. How many kidnappings have we heard about in the Atlanta area in the past few years that did NOT end well? I firmly think, looking at news reports and the data, that the risk of an unhealthy violent crime event far out weighs the chances of a bystander shooting. More so given that these sorts of muggings and worse occur when the number of people around is very low and not very high.
Sources and citations:
NIJ National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms
http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt
Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html
CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports, 1999 – 2007
http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html
I worry more about armed passengers on MARTA attempting to stop a thug and accidentally hurting me than I worry about thugs on the train hurting me.
If they are DCS graduates, they’d prefer to lie down.
Why be so mean and call people who disagree with you sheep? DM, I know you don’t allow attacks on individuals, but is this post attacking everyone with a different opinion okay? And, if so, why? It seems to convey the same disrespect of an insulting post aimed at an individual — in this case, all the individuals who express their opposition to carrying a gun.
I am for gun control – would never carry one. I also understand that criminals will think twice if their would be targets may be packing. I used to be very pacifist until I lived in a dangerous Atlanta neighborhood. I learned from experience that criminals are less likely to pull a gun on people who might shoot them back.
sad but true
Veg, how would you respond to the implication that one’s sanity, maturity, skill and care of your fellow citizens somehow makes one automatically suspect under the law?
I will say that we, the RKBA advocates here, SHOULD respond more politely to such challenges. But, perhaps you can see why it tends to get under our skins.
To Phil I’ll say, please, comport yourself more politely here. We should be on our best behavior here.
Ryan, I’m not sure I follow you. All of those traits are noble but I am unsure they characterize a person who is in a name-calling rant. If this blog gets someone that worked up, I cannot trust that the person will be able to make rational decisions, not to mention ones that consider the qualities you outline, in the face of a truly scary situation like when being held up at gunpoint.
Ryan, also note that Phil says “I” and “my” repeatedly in the post I responded to — I don’t think he conveyed any sense of communitymindedness during that rant.
Politically charged points and rhetoric are not a very good measure of a persons mental state, no matter where you stand on your points. Were that the case, one could argue that people who get angry in textual discussions shouldn’t have children or drive cars or operate power tools or any number of potentially hazardous pursuits requiring responsibility.
Swinging statements or implications of “you’re not responsible enough to XXXX” around as a blanket statement gets tiresome beyond belief.
BTW, thanks for your note to Phil. I think this is a super blog topic — enlightening, engaging and a little disturbing (to me at least). But I hope we all can discuss our values, opinions, angles, etc in the manner you asked of Phil. :-). Thanks again.
Lost all credibility at “sheeple”. The politically correct term is “peeps”, especially on Easter Weekend.
Amen.
All those who are saying that a deadly force (firearm/CCW) response to an armed robbery is NOT a functional or effective response please, explain your reasoning as to why this is. You cite statistics of some sort, please POINT to those statistics first hand,not something you read somewhere.
Here’s a strong hint, ARMED resistance to a violent crime encounter results in LESS injury to the victim on average, NOT more. That’s from the FBI’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Crime Victimization Surveys. It’s been a clearly articulated trend. It does NOT have to be a firearm, though that gives you the best edge.
That’s interesting. Do you have a link?
National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=245
Data is in a raw format but you can look at various tables. Some years break them out by self protection measure, result/outcome, and by crime.
Generally, use of force to defend one’s self in a violent crime encounter is, according to these rather copious data sets NOT as likely to result in injury as doing nothing OR pleading for mercy.
The real hazard with giving a wallet is that you’re giving them an address as to where you live and a lot of other information. These days its NOT just the money and credit cards there in, it is also the address and other sensitive information.
Worse, if the robbery is NOT a robbery (robbery homicide, robbery rape, kidnapping)…what then?
See also:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html
One other general comment to all regarding the “CCW permits”.
The license issued under 16-11-129 is a Georgia Weapon’s License. It allows the carry of a handgun in Georgia openly OR concealed. The handgun does NOT have to be concealed. And, following passage and enactment of SB308 last year, it covers other simple weapons along with handguns. See 16-11-125.1 and other sections from 16-11-120 through 16-11-130.
I am NOT a lawyer NOR do I play one on TV.
To Decatur Metro: Your argument does not surprise me. In fact, I predicted someone would bring it up.
In defending myself in with a firearm some situations may present the risk of hitting a bystander. That does not seem to deter police from carrying. Oh, but they’re “professionals”. I guess you need to be paid in order to use a firearm, notwithstanding my 2nd Amendment Rights are just as intact as theirs, and not to mention that I am just as proficient or more with my gun as they are with theirs.
Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. I never said my choice would always be to shoot, but I do demand to have that option. I fully support your right to be unarmed. Most who cannot handle the responsibility of being armed fortunately recognize that. To project that on others, however, is both foolish and immoral.
And not to mention that in cases where bystanders are present, my gun also has the potential to save them as well, when defending against a crazed gunman, for example, attacking a crowd of people. I guess in that case, I shouldn’t shoot either since innocent people are around, and there is already someone else shooting, huh?
It’s comforting to know that someone prone to such over-reaction is packing.
True.
DM et al., who are these people posting? They go out for an evening prepared for crazed gunmen?They are ready to open fire in a crowd? They think they are better prepared than our police department?
Is MARTA bringing them in? Seriously, where do they hang out? Publix? The YMCA? Yogurt Tap? Maybe the library? If you know, let me know. I’ll go elsewhere.
Pretty much everywhere you can think and far more people that you’d expect. My own grandmother carried across the country in her purse for years unbeknownst to me. You’ll note that Georgia law has changed multiple times in the past few years liberalizing the number of places you can carry (Bars, restaurants, sporting events, all parks, MARTA, etc) and relaxing who can carry (unlicensed concealment in cars if you’re not a prohibited person).
You’ll also note that there has NOT been a dramatic rise in the number of aggravated assaults by license holders. There has been no blood in the streets, despite the warnings and fears stated prior to passage of HB 89 and SB308.
You’re more likely to have a problem with a bad apple APD officer than you are to have a problem with a Georgia Weapon’s License holder. We’re the ones MORE likely to hold the door open for you at a shop on the square, say please and thank you, hand you the buggy we just grabbed from the line at the Kroger on Commerce and help you change a tire in the parking lot of an antique store after hours and unasked.
Simply put, we, the lawfully armed, are not a hazard to you and yours.
Gross generalizations are just that.
Ryan, my previous response was perhaps too concise. After rereading your posts, I respect ya as a well-reasoned, polite poster. It’s just that there are plenty of non-gun-toting types that open doors, say please and thank you, etc. Carry on.
When you cannot refute my points, you dismiss them by labeling it “over-reaction”. Perhaps you might like to try living in the real world sometime and remove your head from the sand.
When threatened on the road by a guy who threatened to kill me, and with another incident that was a potential car-jacking, I did not fire my weapon, but did use it for good effect in both cases. How is that for over-reacting?
Those who pass your responsibility of self-defense to the police, just remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. The police would have an easier job of keeping the streets safe if more decent citizens carried a firearm. Thankfully, that is a right that you naysayers cannot take away.
I suspect some of you railing against carrying guns in public have one at home. A bit hypocritical maybe?
By the way, Parker Cross, avoid Marta, Publix, Yogurt Tap, Kroger, Movie Theaters, etc… Many good people pass by you in those places while carrying their firearm, and you never see it, and never panic. I guess, out of sight equals out of mind, huh?
But I’ve let the cat out of the bag now, so please stay home – your nerves can’t handle it with your new found knowledge. LOL
Well, yes, totally. It would mess me up if I thought my trip to the Publix would be interrupted by cross-fire. How would I ever find the BOGO specials? Are you the same guy who bumps my ankles with his cart when I don’t move through the line fast enough? Dang, I’ll put my change away faster from now on.
I am always amazed at this line of thinking. If you were at Publix and some nut job started spraying bullets, wouldn’t you hope that there was an armed citizen there to take him out?
I seem to be reaching only one station tonight, yall. Goognight.
Ryan makes very good points above. Let me add another. I open carried (gasp!) my firearm while riding my bike on the Silver Comet Trail last Saturday. Rode 50 miles round trip. No one panicked, and even one rider stopped me to ask for assistance with his bike tire low on air. Another group of people chatted with me when I stopped to rest. It was a very pleasant day and experience. And no, I did not even remotely look like a police officer. LOL
What I did was perfectly legal as I hold a GWL (Georgia Weapons License), and no one placed a MWAG (man with a gun) call to the police. A Paulding Sheriff Deputy passed me driving one of those little trail vehicles they use, and didn’t pull me over.
To me, this shows most people out there are reasonable.
Yes Parker, you might want to change the channel if you just can’t take it – or hang around and learn something, Some sheep do change their minds and become sheepdogs.
Well, we’ve had the usual discussion about the rights of adults to carry guns and the wisdom of doing so. Same discussion, same points of view. This was interesting the first 100 times we had it on this blog, not so much now.
The early part of this thread had some interesting information about the specific crime, emergency response, police communication, what folks have noticed in neighborhood, “green” drug dealers on bicycles. I wish there had been some practical responses to my query as a Mom about what to advise my children. Maybe there are none? Just lots of strongly held opinions about adults carrying guns?
Perhaps it’s like most anything by Ayn Rand. Kids are not a big part of the considered philosophy.
A jab at defenders of gun rights and Ayn Rand in two short sentences!! You must be on top of your game, DM! I will leave the Ayn Rand jab alone at this time.
Are kids a big part of the considered philosophy? I love this question so much. I believe in an armed citizenry for many of the reason already stated on this post. I also believe in gun safety and teaching kids that guns are not toys. There are guns present in my home and they are kept safely as possible while still accessible if needed in a hurry. My son is at an age where I have taken him shooting and have taught him the proper way to handle a gun. He knows it’s not a toy. Do you know how I know he has more respect for guns that most kids? Because I have NEVER let him have or play with toy guns. I am amazed that we have created this culture that finds it acceptable for children to treat guns as if they are toys for all of their childhood and then tell them that “guns aren’t toys” later on. I see all these “liberal” parents bashing guns and saying how bad they are while there children are running around shoot each other with airsoft guns, nerf guns, water guns and the variety of shooting video games. The same liberals that say we should teach our kids about sex and how to use condoms, etc. (and I agree) can’t see that the same philosophy should be used for guns; “we hope you never touch one, but if you do, let me show you how to handle it properly.” The kids that accidentally shoot someone are usually kids that have never been exposed to them and don’t know how or if they are loaded.
Yes, kids are certainly a big part of the considered philosophy.
Follow the conversation, Walrus. Karass’s inquiry wasn’t about proper gun handling but what instruction to give a child who might find themselves in this specific instance. Have any pointers in that direction? Or just looking for another excuse to spew vitriol at ‘liberals.’
Dude, relax a little. I was following the post and it was DM’s comment that I was really responding too and I understood his jab to mean something different from what Karass was talking about. Secondly, I was hardly “spewing vitriol”. I was just pointing out some inconsistencies. There are inconsistencies with conservatives as well, but I happened to be discuss a liberal one today. I’ve seen you write many a post on this blog and I am a little shocked by your response. Junior must be running around with toy guns in your house…
I even said I agreed with a liberal point in my post!
Man down, man down. Nerf bullet to the head. And now he’s coming at me with a light saber. Retreat, retreat.
Apparently you’ve been to my house, WC!
I have to admit that we do own a small arsenal of Nerf weapons. When my kids were young, I did not want any gun-type toys around. Then they started improvising their own toy guns out of stuffed animals and such. That’s when I threw in the towel and we started tithing 10% of our income to Nerf.
Do I still feel conflicted about the message I’m sending? Yes. Does it keep me up at night? No. We have conversations with the kids about the difference between toy guns and real guns. Welcome to my imperfect world and my imperfect parenting.
Parenting is most certainly a difficult job.
Ha! That one was for you Wally!
But I gotta say you make some interesting points regarding kids and guns, though I’m not sure it’s just the liberals who are guilty of the points you raise. Great food-for-thought.
However, I think karass was asking for advice for what unarmed small children should be told to do if they ever encounter an armed person. What does the armed citizenry recommend?
Unarmed small children being confronted by an armed criminal? That’s a parents worst nightmare in one short sentence. There’s not much they can do. Run, scream, yell for help, MAYBE they’ll be able to get someone’s attention. Karass’s list of things is probably as best as the kids can be taught in general.
I would submit that if there was a substantive chance of a criminal encounter with my own kids (hypothetically speaking) I’d not be very happy with the idea of their being unescorted by an armed adult.
Perhaps, depending on the age and maturity level of the child, access to a firearm in the home MIGHT be wise. This is a VERY subjective thing. Some children at age 12 are quite smart and possessing good sense, some adults at age 21 do not. There have been enough examples of this working out for the better for the kids and not ending up a horrible victim. It’s still a close thing.
Small point, parents in Georgia, who are licensed to carry can go into/onto school property to pick up and drop off their children. Again, I’m not a lawyer, caveat emptor.
O.C.G.A. § 16-11-127.1
Carrying weapons within school safety zones, at school functions, or on school property
(b) (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, it shall be unlawful for any person to carry to or to possess or have under such person’s control while within a school safety zone or at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school any weapon or explosive compound, other than fireworks the possession of which is regulated by Chapter 10 of Title 25.
(c) The provisions of this Code section shall not apply to:
(7) A person who is licensed in accordance with Code Section 16-11-129 or issued a permit pursuant to Code Section 43-38-10, when such person carries or picks up a student at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school or a person who is licensed in accordance with Code Section 16-11-129 or issued a permit pursuant to Code Section 43-38-10 when he or she has any weapon legally kept within a vehicle when such vehicle is parked at such school property or is in transit through a designated school zone;
Acutally, I was thinking of medium-sized, not small children. Small children would probably not be walking around Decatur without parents. The conversation that’s tough is when your children are old enough to walk home to or from school alone (3rd-5th grade depending on the child’s maturity, the walk, whether buddies are available, and whether an adult is waiting at home) or around town in general (middle school and above). You want to give them a few, clear, easy-to-remember instructions, without unnecessarily alarming them.
Oh, it is most certainly not just liberals that let kids play with toy guns. I certainly did not mean to suggest that. And again, I knew what Karass’s query was, I was more responding generally to your jab.
Ayn Rand: Has anyone actually read one of her books, word for word, cover to cover. I was once stuck somewhere with no other book in English to read but “Atlas Shrugged”. So I read every mind-numbing word. I believe it held my interest in the beginning. But by the end, the stultifying, speechifying dialogue was incredibly tedious. If I wasn’t so desperate for reading material, I would have fallen asleep or ditched the book. It not only didn’t sell me on the merits of pure capitalism but convinced me at a young age that business and industry were dull and boring topics.
“If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath–a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.”
Ok folks, let’s see just how many caricatures we can jam into this thread:
No one, should ever, ever have a gun. Or watch too many Bruce Willis movies.
I Googled your quote, and I found the Dave Grossman article from which it came. The article was thought-provoking, but didn’t convince me that I have made the wrong decision by not owning or carrying a gun (maybe it wasn’t trying to, but labeling all of us who do not carry guns “sheep” and saying we’re in denial seems to be making a value judgment that carrying a gun is better than not carrying a gun).
The way I look at it is, like anything else, the decision to own/carry a gun involves trade-offs. If you feel more comfortable packing, then by all means, you should do so, but it also carries costs and risks. Obviously there’s the monetary cost of owning a gun and buying ammunition and time at a firing range to become proficient at actually using the gun. There’s also the opportunity cost involved in spending that time at the range rather than, say, having a beer. And there’s the risk that you could end up unintentionally harming yourself or others.
If you don’t own or carry a gun, there’s a risk that you will be a victim of an armed robbery or assault and you won’t have the option to defend yourself or others with a gun. I’m not gonna weigh in on the topic of whether or not that’s an effective defense because, frankly, I don’t have any evidence to support either side of that argument.
Based on everything I’ve mentioned so far, I’ve come to the conclusion that the costs and risks of owning/carrying a gun outweigh the risks of being robbed or assaulted by a gun. I don’t think my decision is any better than anyone else. My point is that it’s a decision all of us make based on our own personal cost/benefit analysis, and I don’t see the point in insulting anyone who has made a different choice than you.
Less time at the firing range=more time for beer. I’ll raise my glass of suds to that.
Baaa, baaa, baaa…
Moose, I did not post that quote because I feel that the pro-gun comments are right and anything else is wrong because I believe there is a place in this community, and the world as a whole, for all of us and our varying opinions, belief and value systems and levels of comfort. I posted it because Phil1979 mentioned “sheep” and “sheepdog” in his post and it made me smile as my blog name is and has always been Sheep Dog for the two years I have been blogging. I didn’t want anyone to view one of these terms as more positive or more negative. I wanted to share the quote from an article and theory that I hold dear to my heart and for it to be thought provoking as you mentioned and I regret that you found any part of it to be insulting. It should not have been.
No problem. I didn’t really mean to direct my comment at you specifically, just the topic and all of the commenters in general, and your post just provided a good spot to jump in.
Seems nothing much has changed in 10 years. First it was the Stop and Shop cashier murdered in 2001; an armed robbery of a customer inside my business – to which no one was ever caught, and the community leaders called me a racist for posting a mugshot; and 10 years later (not that there hasn’t been anything in between) this armed robbery.
Congratulations Decatur Police, it’s nice to see some things never change (said with sarcasm). With a concert breaking up, why wasn’t there extra patrol, foot patrol, etc? Oakhurst is a hip area, and I am confident all the residents and businesses would like to keep it that way. What is Decatur Police doing to help? I wish you all safe evenings of entertainment! Be careful out there.
As the victim of an armed robbery that involved more than just a demand for my wallet, I can say that had I been carrying a gun I could have picked my time to use it and actually used it without endangering others. Had I injured or killed the people who robbed me, I could have prevented others from being robbed and sexually assaulted (which is what the perps did until they were caught).
“With a concert breaking up, why wasn’t there extra patrol, foot patrol, etc?”
I don’t know what the actual event was, but the word “concert” has me picturing hundreds of people, at least. Was there an out-of-the-ordinary event in Oakhurst that night, or just the usual type of bar music? If the latter, that certainly would not warrant extra police presence.
Jazz Nights at The Solarium end around 9:00 pm. Steinbeck’s has live music on Thursday nights that finished a minute or 2 after 11:00. Other than that the village [most likely - I was on my porch listening] was business as usual.