Political Infighting
Decatur Metro | November 4, 2008Over at InDecatur, David makes a “rare” editorial comment about Obama’s inexperience and “vague promises”, predicting he’ll be a “stuttering, stammeringly, inexperienced President”, and portends that we’ll all have buyer’s remorse in a few years. He admits he’s making a public statement now, so over the next four years he can repeatedly say to us “I told you so”.
Also, he insinuates we’ll be attacked again…and is either implying its because Obama is elected or he just won’t be able to handle it. I’m going to assume its the latter, because I don’t want to say things I can’t take back.
Wow…so many insults…so little time.
First off, no one is allowed to claim the “smaller government” idea in this election except Bob Barr. This ain’t 1980…the GOP spends just like the Dems of old. So the “old Dems will raise your taxes” claim is baseless. Both parties have and will probably do it again in different areas. How are you going to pay my social security in 35 years without it?
In regards to his “inexperience”, its a semi-valid point, but its easily taken too far. He doesn’t have the congressional experience of John McCain, but how do you measure the value of that? Ted Stevens has more “congressional experience” than almost everyone. Should he run the country? I find it funny that such an incompetent candidate has somehow run the best controlled campaign in recent history. Or are you referencing “executive experience”? George W. Bush and Sarah Palin are both governors. Point taken?
At the same time, I’d say it would be hard to argue that Obama wouldn’t be one of the most intelligent and savvy presidents we’ve ever had. Does that count for nothing?
OK…maybe I should just lay off. I should recognize that when your back is up against the wall, and your worst nightmare is coming true, the only real retort you have left is “You’ll be sorry!”
More sorry than to elect a sold-out maverick that put the country at risk by selecting the most unqualified and least knowledgeable VP candidate in recent memory?
We’ll just see about that.
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DM, I enjoy your blog, obviously!
However I think that you are a little off base with the comparisons here. I’m not going to go into why, but they seem a little reactive and petty. Just sayin’!!!
And the “best run campaign” thing by the guy with least amount of experience? How could he not? Every major media outlet is in the bag, so to speak. Discarding every criticism with an attack on the messenger. Truly “journalism” has devolved into “advocacy journalism”, and we are all the worse off for it.
Side note here from today’s election. My wife went to Renfroe to vote at 6:40AM. Came home, walked into the kitchen, put her head on the table, and started tearing up. I go, “What’s wrong?”
She says, “I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t vote for Obama.”
“Why?” I asked.
“I have so many friends that have small businesses. They won’t survive an Obama presidency. I think that his promises of taxing only those making $200K is a lie. I think it will be closer to $100K. Probably even less. And I think, he has time to run again. He’s just not ready. And I really don’t know what he believes. I think that it would be great for our standing in the world, but then I think, ‘Who are we trying to impress, and why?’ You an I have both spent time in Europe, why do we listen to them so much when we both know that Europe is one of the most racist places in the world?”
An independent thinker….boy do I love her.
Made me rethink my vote.
Whenever someone brings up the “experience” angle, I like to point out that the most experienced, qualified individual on the planet for the office of President is Dick Cheney.
Experience and qualification are not always a good thing.
Now, in the interest of being a uniter and not a divider, let’s all just agree that we’re voting for an upgrade at President, no matter who we voted for.
Left Wing, which comparisons do you dub “reactive and petty”? I’m certainly not above being petty, but I really can’t digest your judgments without knowing.
And why is an Obama lie any more likely than a McCain lie?
Obama may be taxing small business owners more, but in a McCain presidency, I won’t be open long enough to survive and pay any taxes the way the economy is, and will most likely continue to be if he gets elected.
Voting and reasoned deliberation are second-best options in this or any election year. The best method to influence policy is a combination of frequent political donations and targeted lobbying. Neither Obama nor McCain has shown any strong inclination to dismantle that system.
(joking… well, partially…)
i don’t understand people who say they don’t know what senator obama believes. he’s told us, it’s spelled out. you either believe him, or you don’t. and if you don’t, then fine.
but that’s not independent thinking, that’s skepticism.
Agreed birah…the first time I read that part of the comment I thought…This man has written 2 books about what he believes. And not even through a ghost-writer…he wrote it himself. Is that not enough?
You may have already seen this, but I think it’s relevant:
Barack Obama:
Columbia University – B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in
International Relations.
Harvard – Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude
Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware – B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law – Juris Doctor (J.D.)
vs.
John McCain:
United States Naval Academy – Class rank: 894 of 899
Sarah Palin:
Hawaii Pacific University – 1 semester
North Idaho College – 2 semesters – general study
University of Idaho – 2 semesters – journalism
Matanuska-Susitna College – 1 semester
University of Idaho – 3 semesters – B.A. in Journalism
Education isn’t everything, but this is about the two highest offices in
the land as well as our standing in the world. You make the call.
“Every major media outlet is in the bag”….
Left Wing, have you ever watched Fox News? It’s like a running infomercial for John McCain, especially in the last month where it’s been almost embarrasing to watch because of the non-stop 24 hr, 7 day a week, sun up to sun down attacks on Obama. Although, their slogan is laughingly “Fair & Balanced” I don’t think even the most deluded viewer could actually consider FNC to be anything but a propaganda outlet for the Republican Party.
seven more hours and we’ll begin to know how this thing is going to shake out.
6 hours 51 minutes now….
wish there was a paper trail for these electronic machines…Is there?
Ha Ha Ha! This is getting interesting, very late in the game. I’ve challenged a commenter (who has the guts only to indentify himself as ‘J’ at inDECATUR to a “videotaped” recording of a direct encounter in Decatur, but i”m speculating he’ll wimp out, while hoping he won’t (as it would be great for readership).
Assuming Obama wins, we conservatives expecting to have fun observing the disillusion those who voted for Obama are going to experience over the next four years.
Dammit David! I almost made it through the entire general election without posting a political diatribe!
Oh well, there’s always 2012…
Dave, I’m seriously considering your challenge. (Although I’m not J.) I agree with Krugman. Conservatives should spend more time soul searching and asking why they lost touch with so many voters instead of wishing for Obama’s failure. The sad truth is that the far right wing of the Republican party will retain it’s seats in congress. The moderate Republicans are the ones on the way out. So, I’ll guess we Democrats will sit back and watch the Republicans become even more extreme. (Remember the Schiavo case?)
Left Wing, a lot of the criticism of the McCain/Palin campaign has come from the right, or what you would call “advocacy journalists” – National Review Online, Michael Smirconish, Joe Klein, etc. Journalists being booted from the “Straight Talk Express” and Sarah Palin insisting being challenged on her assertions impinges upon her First Amendment Rights only illustrate how a McCain administration would continue the Bush policy of bullying the press into receiving the coverage they want.
Writerchad, name the time and place inside incorporated Decattur, between 5 and 7 PM, over the next 24 hours. Full vdieo (OK, You Tiube) coverage.I welcome it! It will be great for inDECATUR traffic. If you don’t respond, readers can draw their own conclusions.
Ugh. Just read the inDecatur blogger’s challenge to meet up with a critical commenter “mano a mano”, “if you’re a real man”, called him a wimp, etc. He also brought up some award his blog has won.
Kudos to DecaturMetro for the high quality of this blog.
I don’t understand the draw.
If its to make your accusations to the person’s face, than meeting with a self-described “Switzerland” doesn’t really peak my interest.
Now if you arrange a one-on-one debate with Decaturguy…oh man…everyone would link to that. First and foremost, Peach Pundit!
Left Wing,
Really? Tears for business owners who *net* $200, 150, or even 100K per year (that is, after payroll and all expenses)? And that is for an increased *marginal* tax rate for them, so the rate is only higher on the amount that exceeds this cut-off? I can understand someone opposing the policy on economic grounds, but literal tears of sympathy for people trying to scrape by with incomes in the upper 5% of one of the richest countries in the world?
In regards to E’s comment about an award…here’s David’s comment to “J” that I missed the first time around…
“You’ll be missing what Atlanta Magazine has awarded as one of the most informative logal news blogs in the ATL area.”
Luckily for “J” there’s another Decatur blog that will also win that same award and attracts twice as many readers on a daily basis…he was just trying to keep it a secret.
Re: Left Wing’s comment
I am a small business owner. I do pretty well, but I will cry tears of joy the day I move into a higher marginal tax bracket under Obama’s plan. Taking home $250,000 would be a really, really, really good year. And I would be more than happy to pay my part to make sure we have good infrastructure, help for the needy, state of the art equipment for the armed forces, excellent scientific institutions, etc.
As for inDecatur, I stopped reading his blog a while back after one too many remarks that seemed racially insensitive and made me very uncomfortable.
I’m not offering myself up for a name-calling, mud-slinging meltdown with Dave. I will debate the issues with him and hopefully he’ll have justification for his dire predictions concerning an Obama presidency over on inDecatur.
I have some really bad news for you. No one will pay your social security in 35 years. We have over $50 trillion in unfunded SS and medicare liability. What is Obama’s plan to deal with that? Pretty much nothing — a donut hole payroll tax plan won’t make a dent in that massive deficit. And of course he’s proposing massive spending increases of all sorts, so there is no fiscal responsibility in his plans. I don’t mean to suggest McCain is any better, but let’s not prentend that Obama has a plan to get this country on anything resembling sound financial footing.
Can we also dispense with the flawed notion that raising taxes will raise more revenue? It generally does not, and it is especially follish to think it will in a major recession. People complain about the Bush tax cuts — as if taking the top marginal rate from a confiscatory 40% to a “mere” 35% was a big deal — but federal revenues exploded under Bush. The problem is that he spent all that and more. Obama isn’t proposing spending cuts to offset that. On the contrary.
The huge problem underlying all of this — another bipartisan problem that neither party wants to talk about openly — is that we are rapidly reaching the point where 51% of Americans vote for a massive government that they don’t pay for. The bottom 50% of income earners pay almost nothing in federal income tax. The top 5% pays well in excess of their share of the economic pie. Obama wants to make this even worse by offering “tax credits” to those who pay no taxes — in other words, welfare. This appeals to those who instinctively want to “spread the wealth” — I should say spread others’ weath — but it’s no way to run a country.
Paula, if you are more than happy to pay more, then be my guest. No one is preventing anyone else from paying all the taxes they’d like to pay. I, on the other hand, think I am already paying well in excess of my fair share. My single biggest expense is taxes, by a long margin.
No, that’s not skepticism; it’s flat out denial.
I think people all around will be somewhat disappointed if they’re expecting vast sweeping changes no matter who is elected.
dem: I’m about to go out, so I can’t debate all day, but I am curious: do you or your loved ones never use or reap the advantages of publicly-funded institutions and services, such as roads, libraries, schools, the military, fire fighters, police, state universities, scientific & medical research, art, supportive services for the elderly, etc?
And as for paying more taxes, when I become one of the wealthiest 5% of Americans, it will be absolutely no skin off my nose to pay more. Even John McCain recognized this before he went bananas:
DEM – I may be working with the flawed notion of raising taxes means more revenue, but my statement about social security didn’t say specifically that Obama would be any better than McCain. But as long as Obama doesn’t sign off on any billion dollar, knee-jerk invasions on his watch, we’ll already see a “surplus” of sorts.
I guess anyone’s judgment on the “huge problem” underlying this whole thing is based on each of our individual assessments of what is a “fair share”.
Paula, you are really curious as to whether I use public roads? Well, I try to avoid it, but . . .
The bulk of the federal budget is not taken up by roads, libraries, and other basic services. If we only had to pay for that kind of basic stuff, taxes would be a heck of a lot lower. We’re paying through the nose for medicare and medicaid, really. Those two programs plus social security are over half the federal budget, and they’re still massively underfunded when compared to the promises we’ve made.
DM, the war is expensive but it is a drop in the bucket compared to entitlements. We could cut the entire defense budget to zero, and we’d still be in a huge financial mess.
As for fair share, I guess you’re right. My point is that it’s a very bad thing to tell half the population that their fair share is zero and make the other half pay for our multi-trillion dollar government by forking over 40% or more of what they earn.
“DEM – I may be working with the flawed notion of raising taxes means more revenue”
You are. It punishes the producers.
DEM…thank you for the reasoned post. For some reason, $10 BN in Iraq trumps all other spending.
DEM – Yes, I was talking about taxes generally, not just the federal budget. As for medicare/medicaid/SS, there is likely some waste in these programs and very certainly provider fraud. So I am sure we can agree that there is room for improvement. However, I for one don’t wish to return to the pre-FDR days without a basic social safety net.
As for “fair share” arguments, 1) I disagree that your statement about half the population paying zero and half paying 40% is factual, 2) you seem to neglect to take “wealth effects” into account in this discussion.
From Sowell….
Official data show that the output of the economy in the most recent quarter is down– by less than one-half of one percent– but at last the media have one of those two quarters required to qualify as a recession.
Whether they will get the other quarter that they need, in order to start using the word “recession” legitimately, is another story. In fact, the data-gathering process is by no means so precise that we can expect the one-half of one percent decline to hold up, since such statistics often get revised later.
It is not just a question of being able to put scare headlines on newspapers or alarmist rhetoric on television. Such things are just the prelude to massive political “change” in fundamentally sound institutions that have for more than two centuries made the American economy the envy of most of the world.
If the left succeeds, it will be like amputating your arm because of a stomach ache.
To add to the painful irony, many of those who are most eager to have a massive government intrusion into the market are among those whose previous intrusions into the market are largely responsible for the current financial crisis.
It was the left– the “liberals” or “progressives”– who led the charge to force lending institutions to lend to people whose credit history made them eligible only for “subprime” loans that were risky for both borrowers and lenders.
It started way back in the Carter administration, with the Community Reinvestment Act, and gained momentum over the years with legal threats from Attorney General Janet Reno and thuggery from ACORN, all to force lenders to lend where third parties wanted them to lend. Now we have a bad stomach ache– and now the left wants to start amputating the market.
Lord…I should have known better than to bring up Iraq and fall into the “all Democrats tie all problems back to Iraq”. It apparently gives Left Wing a way out of answering all the other questions posed to him…including my own. My only point was that its not just purely these long-existing problems that eat up revenue (though they are a majority)…poor decision-making by the commander-in-chief also contributes.
How about this then LW…cut government spending! But only for programs that I’m opposed to.
Funny….I haven’t heard much from Iraq lately…
Why?
Because its now a bastion of democracy?
Sowell, the CRA only applied to depository institutions. The lending banks that recently went under didn’t have to comply with CRA, nor did Behr Stearns, or Lehman Bros (to name a few). Also, CRA and ACORN (ACORN, seriously?) didn’t force bank to offer no-money-down mortgages or ignore sound underwriting guidelines. I don’t think CRA and ACORN forced Behr Stearns to leverage $395 billion in debt with their $11.1 billion in equity.
Looking forward to what other nuggets from Hannity you have to relay to the board.
Paula,
“As for “fair share” arguments, 1) I disagree that your statement about half the population paying zero and half paying 40% is factual”
The bottom 50% does not currently pay zero in the aggregate. But it’s close and getting closer. Here’s the facts from the Tax Policy Center. For 2005, the bottom 50% earned 12.83% of all adjusted gross income. They paid just 3.07% of all federal income taxes. The top 5% earned 35.75% of AGI and paid 59.67% of all income taxes.
I am pretty sure that data for 2006 was released not too long ago, and was even more progressive. But I don’t have that handy.
So here’s the “fair share” situation. Even if the top 5% paid taxes in proportion to their share of AGI, they’d pay vastly more in actual dollars than the bottom 50%. But they pay even more than that — their slice of the tax revenue pie is larger than their slice of the AGI pie. The bottom 50%, on the other hand, contribue nowhere near their share of the income pie.
And for some raw numbers: the total number of returns in the top 5% is a shade over 6.6 million. The total number of returns in the bottom 50%: over 66 million. Thus, those 66 million individuals/familes paid but a fraction of the taxes paid by a mere 6.6 million individuals/families. It really is incredible.
Oh and by the way, wonder what AGI one needed to propel himself into the top 5% in 2005? $145,283. Not bad, but hardly rich.
Sorry, Bear Stearns. Must’ve been thinking about paint.
Left Wing,
The voting day anecdote is just hilarious an quite hokey. It summarizes the entire Republican Party in one quick insightful, [edited] story. FEAR. You should send it to McCain. He could always use another Joe the Unlicensed Plumber. The repubulicans won’t talk about the issues but they’ll call their opponent every name in their tired old playbook….Obama’s the socialist (most of them couldn’t even begin to describe socialism accurately) Obama’s a Muslim. He’s not, but does it matter? Separtation of Church and State anyone? Obama’s a terrorist sympathizer. That’s just nuts. Obama’s a tax and spender. Well Bush spent it all and borrowed the rest from the Chinese. There is no way he can waste as much money as a republican. Wealth spreader? I actually admit to being middle class. I’m no billionare, but if I were I’d still vote Obama to help the economy and the middle class. It’s fair that Oprah should pay an extra 16 million in taxes under Obama and she ‘s voting for the country not her own wallet. Under McCain Oprah would pay 9 million less in taxes than she currently is. That’s not wealth spreading that is just fair to the middle class.
(edited: personal attack] Just because Obama wants to go back to a more successful tax structure , one similar to Reagan’s and Clinton’s tax structure does not make him a “wealth spreader or a socialist.” It makes him smart and a realist. We can’t keep borrowing money from the Chinese so that the millionares of this country don’t have to pay taxes. We need to have some money coming into the system and it should come from the wealthiest 2-5%. Where else shall it come from?
Obama is a breath of fresh air. He talks to us like people. He has explained his positions in depth. (more than any politician I can remember) If you don’t know what he believes, you are just not paying attention or probably don’t want to know.
Finally, we pay attention to Europe because they know what the hell they are doing. We are their crazy step children trying to work our way through our awkward teenage years. They are moderate. We are extreme and they would like for us to get back in the fold. France and Germany are like older siblings who tell us the truth even if it stings a little. I don’t think Europeans are racist. [edited: name calling/personal attacks]
I’d never heard of the inDecatur blog before this little brouhaha.
I can see now I wasn’t missing much.
This is a really sad thread.
I’m so glad all of you know how to run the country. Maybe you should all run for president as a team.
Stephen…that was some….something.
I will let other posters on this thread more eloquent and knowledgeable than myself respond. Your broad generalizations are one of the many reasons why all Dems get painted with the too large stroke of liberalism, and that isn’t fair. Your statement that Europe Knows what they are doing would be laughable if it weren’t so incredibly inaccurate. As I have an older “sibling” whom I have had to pull out of the fire over the years, such is Europe beholden to America. Giving examples of that is just too obvious for even your edification. Oh…and the quesitoning the sincerity of another posters’ spouse is a nice touch as well.
Come on Stephen…keep the insults and exasperation in check.
Poor poor republicans. They’ve ruined our reputation, our economy, our hope, our American Brand, our jobs, our servicemens lives, our sanity, our banks, our financial systems, our moral highground, the office of VP, science, human rights…..and list keeps going. The time has come for the worst president in the history of the United States to step down. Republican lies have ruined this country and it’s time to take it back from the whack job right wing Rush Limbaugh listening, FOX watching, my Jesus is better than your Jesus, only rednecks are real Americans Party.
You republicans have lost your minds. You are not industrialists. You don’t sell tanks and bombers. Chances are you work in a field that caters to the middle class. Most of you are lower or upper middle class. No matter how much you think trickle down economics works it doesn’t. The republican party is not a country club. If you vote for the rich they won’t let you into their club. They are laughing at you. You are voting for the interests of a billionare and you make 75,000 a year. The joke is on you and your ignorance of history.
They’ve ruined our reputation, our economy, our hope, our American Brand, our jobs, our servicemens lives, our sanity, our banks, our financial systems, our moral highground, the office of VP, science, human rights…..and list keeps going.
————–
Wow, who knew that they were so powerful? They’ve ruined science? I did not think that was even possible.
Someone made the comment “I like to point out that the most experienced, qualified individual on the planet for the office of President is Dick Cheney.”
Really?
A government contractor as President?
So the USA would be on the same par as those lovely places such as Indonesia and Nigeria.
1 hour 38 minutes!
They ruined stem cell research. That’s science. They want to ban evolution in our schools. That science. They want to not allow a woman to have an abortion. That’s science. Yes, they are trying to anti-intellectualize science. That is called ruining it. Yes, DEM, to answer your question, I knew they were powerful enough to do these things by hoodwinking the American public into fighting a war against an unfightable opponent….ideology.
And to Marlys, Donald Trump called for Bush’s impeachment the other day. Maybe he is just a whacko liberal hippie guy who is painting with a broad brush as well. The truth about these last eight years will unfold in the history books. People of my point of view are the most common, hardly on the fringe of society. Three countries support McCain…Israel because they want our muscle, the Republic of Georgia because they want our muscle, and finally the Phillipines because they want our money for our naval bases. The ENTIRE REST of the world agrees with me and my extremely radical fringe assesment of our situation. And to DecaturMetro…you got me started. Thanks for the thread. I still don’t believe the story about the dude’s wife crying about voting for Obama. It just seems too forced.
inDecatur is abominably biased, and can’t even pretend to be fair in its assessments of present-day social issues, politics, and political candidates. I gave up reading it too, because of its absurd whining and striking out ad hominem at anyone with different opinions.
Oh!! The Humanity!!
I think I would be running for office myself if, to quote Stephen, “The ENTIRE REST of the world agrees with me…”
amazing
They paid just 3.07% of all federal income taxes. The top 5% earned 35.75% of AGI and paid 59.67% of all income taxes.
The key there is income taxes. Of course the poor and middle class pay a far more disprortionate amount of their income in payroll taxes (i.e., Social Security, Medicare, etc.), but we never hear about that, do we?
We never hear about the fact that the incomes of the poor and middle class are 100% subject to these payroll taxes, whereas the rich only have to pay these taxes on like the first $100,000 of their income and are free from paying it after that.
Stephen,
It was the story of my wife NOT voting for Obama.
I did vote for him. But I think that she may be right.
The voters have the ultimate say:
Fool me once, shame on…. you
Fool me twice, shame…. on….won’t get fooled again….
Decaturguy, that’s because social security was designed not to be a welfare program but essentially a pension system. You pay in to get it back out later. Since no one will ever get anything resembling a return on 6% of their income over and above a hundred grand, it makes perfect sense to cap it. If you want to turn it into yet another income redistribution scheme, then that’s another matter.
The notion that no one ever talks about this is silly; the “donut hole” has been a major Obama campaign issue.
And as for medicare, you think the middle class can survive that awesome 1.45% levy on their wages? Go ahead and throw those in the mix. The bottom 50% is still paying peanuts while the top 10% is funding the government.
Facts don’t matter to DecaturGuy.
Oh, so I’m really going to get back what I’ve put into Social Security when I’m 67? Please. It’s going to pay for the benefits of current retirees and people who are in their 50’s and 60’s right now, nothing more nothing less. My generation has come to terms with that and just see it as another tax.
Let’s tax the poor and middle class at the same rate as the upper 5%, why don’t we? Is that what you support? Please explain how you can justify your tax increases on the poor and middle class? Won’t your income redistribution away from the poor and middle class alone cause spending to tank, causing even more hardship in the economy? Tax the poor and middle class – that’s your prescription?
I first wrote a long post in response to this thread. Then I realized I was soap-boxing too much in a comment format. Anyhow, my simple comment is that we should respect all participants in this election not for their party, politics, or their personalities but simply for their willingness to serve.
In the case of our neighbors who are contributing greatly to our community by blogging, I say blessings on them both.
If you want to be subject to my soap-boxing, I posted a link below instead of dithering in Metro’s comment feature.
http://www.communityradar.com/story.php?id=4647