Learn More (and Spout Off!) On the Clifton Corridor Transit Line
Decatur Metro | September 13, 2011
WIth a cool $700 million allocated to the Clifton Corridor line from LaVista to N. Decatur/Clairmont (or Avondale Station) in the proposed Transportation tax project list, the future is brighter than ever for this transit line! (admittedly it wasn’t all that bright to begin with…)
Now, that big price-tag and/or the prospect rail to Emory may have gotten your attention, but you may be thinking, “You know, I care about “transit” and I want people to know what I think because, gosh darn it, people like me! But dinner’s not going to cook itself/I can’t just skip out of work!/ I can’t leave my kids at home alone! What do I do?”
Well, here’s the answer for you overworked, stressed out, likable folks.
The Clifton Corridor Transit Initiative has posted a narrated presentation on its website that brings you up to speed faster than a high-speed rail project can burn through a billion dollars. (Sorry, “faster than high-speed rail!” sounded too corny, even for me.) What are the differences between “heavy rail”, “light rail” and “bus rapid transit”? It’s all in there!
This is the second of two presentations that CCTI has produced for the interwebs, however its the first time they’ve also included an online survey at the end of the presentation! So now you can be informed AND let the world (or at least the three project managers listed at the end of the presentation) know what you think about this whole transit from Lindbergh to Emory/Decatur thingy.
Go and survey responsibly!
Latest from Decaturish
Do any of the proposed alternative routes include a stop at Scott Blvd and Clairemont?
No, the initiative threw out all Clairemont alternatives about a year ago due to general opposition and concerns about the historic district. All options now go down N. Decatur to DeKalb Industrial and then down to the Avondale MARTA station.
Looks like some of the alternatives go down Clairmont (past the Y) to Scott Blvd as well but do not continue into Decatur.
CSX will not relinquish their right of way. It’s too expensive to build under or around them. Stalemate?
Sorry, you’re right. My mind is mush this morning. The historic district only stretches up to Scott.
Does anyone else think that it is a missed opportunity to have HRT go down Clairmont (underground) to Decatur?
It may be, but it’s been missed intentionally. Residents along that stretch (at least the organized ones) don’t want it and Marta has basically abandoned any plans there.
That is unfortunate. I think in the long run an underground line below Clairmont would be to the great benefit of Decatur. If the Save Old Sycamore (SOS) opposition to the downtown MARTA alignment had their way, there would probably be no downtown MARTA station and no Decatur revitalization. I guess that lesion was not learned. Instead the planners take the easy way out.
Anyone else remember those great trolleys hitting cars videos with a Ride of the Valkyries soundtrack that someone posted on an opposition website?
Underground not really very practical on several fronts.
Explain.
1) Underground routes are VERY expensive to construct, especially in an area like Clairemont where the buried infrastructure (utilities, etc.) are old and probably poorly documented.
2) Underground construction would significantly impact surface traffic on Clairemont during the construction period. Think of the disruption to the Square that was caused by the current line – it has taken us 30 years to recover.
3) Construction time would be at least 3 years.
4) Heavy rail stops are typically at least a mile apart, so there likely would be no stops along Clairemont.
5) Some sort of “Y” connection would have to be made to the existing MARTA line right under the Square.
6) Not sure the ridership figures would support heavy rail
It just doesn’t make much sense, especially if MARTA is going with heavy rail from Lindbergh to Clifton. People coming from the East side have to make 2 transfers to get to Emory (probably add 20-30 minutes). That is a real reduction in usability.
If they are building heavy rail, it is just a matter of time until they connect it to the E/W line. It just does not make sense for them to stop there and not continue on.
As someone who lives in Decatur and works in Dunwoody, I would probably use this a lot.
Why would lt rail not come to downtown Decatur and circle around to Avondale instead? I cannot imagine people would fight it on Clairemont….but maybe they would. What a missed opportunity. I guess we’ll see Avandale explode with development! Wonder how this will change the North Decatur and Clairmont interchange…might see some density there someday due to all the transit.
Not would, but did. Organized neighbors along that stretch opposed light rail (and likely any variation, though that’s just my read on it) down Clairemont for years. That was Marta’s preferred route initially. It just wasn’t viable, from a political standpoint.
Even behind the houses along the RR ROW coming from East Lake to Clairmont/North Decatur? Another missed opportunity. Pity.
I can’t say for certain on that, and I’ve often wondered why that alternative wasn’t pursued, as it seems like an ideal compromise between competing interests. Not to mention less expensive so long as the ROW can be easily secured from the railroad.
“so long as the ROW can be easily secured from the railroad.”
Not going to happen.
You can follow that ROW all the way from the East Lake station to the MARTA Northeast rail line near Lindbergh!!
If you look at the original MARTA concept maps from 40 years ago, there was such a line projected and, if you look closely, you can see where the line would have left the East Lake line shortly before the station and tunneled under Howard Ave. I think it was fashioned to take a turn and go to Tucker, though, not follow around to Emory and Lindbergh.
I assume the light rail would go to the Avondale station, which is actually in Decatur. I think light rail down Dekalb Industrial could be great. That street is so wide with so many lanes, they could create an island down the middle and make it more of a very high speed avenue. But taking light rail down North Decatur seems like a hot mess. I know theoretically mass transit reduces traffic as people move from cars to trains, but I predict we’ll have the same amount of cars and just add trains to the commute as well.
But is the light rail really happening? Or is the priority the heavy rail from Lindburgh to Emory?
Here’s a link to MARTA’s maps of this project: http://www.itsmarta.com/clifton-corr-maps.aspx
The light rail route actually doesn’t go through the intersection of N Decatur and Clairmont. It goes slightly to the west of that intersection. It actually hardly goes on N Decatur at all, which is a good idea. It stays on Scott and Dekalb Industrial, which is a roundabout way to Decatur, but it takes advantage of those big streets.
What are the dollar figures here? The tax would supply $700,000 out of a projected $1.1 million? How would it be phased? How would the shortfall be made up, and if it’s not what doesn’t get done? I’m not even clear on why Emory wants to be on a rail line to Buckhead at all. All this may be covered on the narrated web presentation, but I could only get it to play the intro four times in a row before I gave up on it.
None of that is covered in the presentation.
What I’ve heard in summation is that Emory might put in and that federal money is a strong possibility due to the CDC presence. That seems like some pretty viable options compared to those of other area transit lines.
I’m not even clear on why Emory wants to be on a rail line to Buckhead at all.
Seems pretty clear that most of the commuter traffic coming into Emory is coming from Buckhead and points northward. Having a direct connection from Lindburgh makes it much easier to get to rather than having to take MARTA all the way downtown and change trains to another line, connect at Decatur or Avondale via bus, etc.
A direct rail connection from Lindburgh would probably save people 30-45 minutes and increase transit use dramatically for students, employees, visitors, hospital patients, relieving much of the congestion on campus (and need for parking).
An excellent summary of why this rail project needs to be constructed ASAP. The benefits far outweigh the costs.
“I’m not even clear on why Emory wants to be on a rail line to Buckhead at all”
Have you ever been on or near Clifton Road at 8 or 5?
Although technically connecting to Decatur it does not appear that a single transit stop is being added inside the city limits. Being that one of the three ‘purpose and need’ statements is to improve mobility to Decatur, Emory and Lindberg, it appears that one leg of the stool is missing.
See the maps in the link I posted above. The light rail will end at the Avondale station and you’ll be able to walk between stations. I think the station is within city limits, but if it’s not, it’s close enough. Not only can a lot of residents of Decatur walk to the Avondale station, but others can hop on MARTA downtown or at East Lake to get there.
Avondale station is within Decatur City limits, as are Decatur and East Lake stations.
As several people have noted, the citizens of Decatur spoke loudly when MARTA floated the idea of light rail down Clairmont several years ago. For better or for worse, it will be a long time before MARTA proposes any new stations in Decatur. I remember one of our commissioners (may have been the mayor) being quoted as saying Decatur had already “done its part” with the three current stations within the city. As short sighted as this seems to me, I doubt there is any going back.
I remember years ago light rail was proposed that would go down Clairemont and on S. Candler Street as well, with alternate route proposed on Columbia. The south side roads roads would have had to have been widened to accommodate light rail. I lived on one of those roads at the time and to widen the roads was unacceptable to those who lived on them (not sure if Clairemont would have to be widened, as it has more lanes). It is bad enough to live on a street that cars and Marta busses travel 55 miles per hour on, but to bring that road even closer to your house along with light rail– few would want that. So please do not too harshly judge the neighbors who live on Clairemont.
This is stupid. There’s still a tunnel exit near the East Lake Station, designed for a “Tucker Line” on MARTA running parallel (or above) the railroad right of way. I know it’s there because MARTA was at the KNO meeting the other night claiming this could be used to run a tunnel under East Lake Blvd, Second Ave. and Oakview to a station by the Publix on Glenwood, then on to the WalMart near I-20 and thence out to Stonecrest Mall.
You could fly a MARTA train above the train to the Emory dorms along Clairmont on that right of way, and while you’re at it add a stop where the old railroad runs over Clifton.
Even at the whatever cost-per-mile, it would still cost less than $700 million. You’re talking about going through all sorts of trips just to avoid the City of Decatur. WTF?
The generally accepted cost of Heavy Rail, including ROW, utilities, etc., is $200 to $250 million per mile.
So are you saying that this project is going to cost many times more than what is projected?
The TIA project proposal from MARTA for a dual platform, inter-lined HRT/LRT line along the CSX alignment running from Lindbergh to just shy of Clairmont Rd (the Emory Wye), including a half-mile tunnel and 4 cut-rate stations, put the total capital cost of the project, as specified, at $685 million.
The project name was “Clifton Corridor Transit Initiative – Rail Corridor Phase 1A” (TIA-M-026).
Yes, it will cost way more than projected. These projects always do. Which is why proceeding with this with less than 1/2 of the project funded is insanity.
Same time as the Clairmont discussion, MARTA had another option they proposed – a line on the RR line that runs from near E. Lake Station to Emory. The Druid Hills Civic Assoc pitched a fit on that one. On what grounds? Roving bands of criminals leaping from moving trains into the back yards of unsuspecting Druid Hillians, of course. Remember the race/transit discussion from last week? It’s not just Cobb and Gwinnett.
Are you referring to 1999?
That’s odd. I don’t remember that objection being raised at all, at the time.
It wasn’t MARTA, it was commuter rail to Athens, not a MARTA project, but the objections were there from NIMBYs who thought that trains would be running 80 mph thru their back yards.
My opinion, based on 40 years of observing in-town politics, if the proposed development touches the Druid Hills area, you can count of the Druid Hills set being invariable and adamantly opposed, even if the development might benefit the greater Atlanta area and folks who live “outside” of the historic country club neighborhood.
It just seems like such a circuitous route to connect Decatur with Emory. And given that Clifton corridor is such a major employer in the area, a direct connection with Decatur would obviously increase desirability to live here.
I work on Clifton and if I could take the train there, it would be a no-brainer. Takes me 20-25 minutes to go 2 miles. Biking is not an option for me.
It seems in this forum and in many private conversations I’ve had with others that there is a lot of support for underground rail from Decatur station north to Emory and beyond.
During the public forums organized by MARTA and the Clifton Corridor group these voices were drowned out by the noisy, organized but obviously vested NIMFY neighbors on Clairmont. [I personally felt brow beaten and intimidated by a few when I tried speaking up.] I worry that city council folks were similarly lobbied by the few and majority went unheard.
How can a community and its public officials gauge support for an effort like this without being subject to the tyranny of the noisy?
I really feel like Decatur was railroaded (sorry) out of our community’s best interest.
A new underground rail connection from Decatur Station to anywhere is not going to happen. The technical/financial hurdles are insurmountable.
There is no time like the present to get organized (okay, maybe yesterday or the day before or the day before that).
It’s great that you participated in their outreach. That said, while the outreach process may be better than nothing (or not!), it isn’t very concerned with your input or my input.
Again, organize, organize, organize.
I don’t recall that underground rail was ever brought up; it’s not very practical for the reasons I stated. What was discussed was light rail / streetcars on Clairemont and the folks in those neighborhoods thought they had derailed (sorry) those plans over 10 years ago. The forums are an opportunity for anyone to speak and make recorded comments. In addition to verbal discussion, there is always an opportunity for written comments. If you felt strongly that you were being “railroaded”, you job was to marshal your forces and provide appropriate input.
sure, streetcars I can see as being a problem. But heavy rail should not be opposed except for cost.
Maybe that is what MARTA is planning: set up heavy rail to N Decatur, then bus to Avondale station. Once people realize that the 2 lines should be connected, then will raise $ for HRT to Decatur.
It’s not too late to take the survey and make yourself heard. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/cliftoncorridor
Btw, I don’t believe streetcars travel at 55 mph. They are far more sedate!