Mayor Asks City Staff To Assess Putting Up Stop Signs at Ponce Mid-Block Crosswalks
Decatur Metro | September 20, 2011
At the conclusion of the Decatur City Commission meeting a couple weeks ago, Mayor Bill Floyd made a request of city staff. He asked that they assess putting stop signs at the mid-block crosswalks on Ponce de Leon Avenue.
Curious to know what spurred this request, I asked Mayor Floyd if he could provide a few more details. Here’s his thinking on the matter…
…my concern comes from watching the crosswalk at East Court Square but I suspect most are similar, especially the ones downtown. The most dangerous time is when there is less traffic (or when the school kids are standing on the corner) and people come through the light at Clairemont trying to make the light at Church or vice versa. They are generally traveling around the speed limit, which makes stopping quickly for a pedestrian almost impossible. It would seem to me that requiring people to stop at the crosswalk would be safer and slow traffic considerably, making drivers more aware of the surroundings. Those of us who like walking and like pedestrians having the right of way, want drivers to be respectful of people trying to cross the street. We like being able to walk freely around the downtown area and want to feel safe walking. It is one of the things that makes our downtown special.
Photo courtesy of Dennis at Next Stop
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Ban cars on Ponce from Church to Commerce please.
+1
Sure, and render much of downtown inaccessible to anybody who, for whatever reason, is unable to walk or cycle in.
I just don’t understand this. How much of downtown can’t you access from the dozen or so parking spots here? Remember you would be able to relocate the handicap spots onto Ponce at Clairemont.
If anyone close to you is physically impaired from walking farther than a few feet — or at all — then it’s obvious. If not, use your imagination.
“Either/or” solutions are easy to promote but I think often have unintended consequences. I’m more a fan of seeking a third way. And when it comes to improving traffic conditions and expanding transportation choices, it seems to me we’re better off looking for ways to adjust how we use various modes so they’re more compatible — or at least not so completely at odds with each other — than trying to divvy up the landscape. More cooperation and less competition.
If your objection is about removing the handicap parking from infront of starbucks, I’d simply suggest relocating it to the other side of the flower barrier. It would be just as close to starbucks and closer to some of the other stores. Otherwise, I really could use an explanation. Sorry I’m dense.
Okay, let’s say my elderly, barely-able-to-get-around parent wishes to visit the Little Shop of Stories and buy a present for a great-grand-nephew. If I can drop her off in front of the door, all is well. If the closest I can get with the car is the corner of Ponce and Clairemont (which would have to have some kind of turnaround arrangements, so I’m not sure how you plan to configure the relocated parking spaces), then the whole trip is off because she can’t walk from there to the shop, it’s too far. (And don’t even think you’re going to get somebody in their 80s who is desperately clinging to the little mobility they have left, to use a wheelchair.)
I have other examples.
+ 1000
One of the unfriendly things about an otherwise welcoming Decatur – getting a less able-bodied person to any restaurant or store any place on the square is so difficult already.
Do you have any real-life examples that shows this would do more good than harm?
Yes
OK, great. Guess that’s all I need then… :-/
Yours first.
I don’t have any. I was asking whether there were examples that supported the assertion made above. I’m always wary of suggestions of extremes. All cars or no cars. But real life examples make me feel better.
http://tinyurl.com/42vf55k
Here is one. I’m guessing this is the kind of real-life example you’re looking for.
I addressed Times Square the last time this was brought up. I don’t think we can equate Ponce to Times Square. For one thing, Decatur doesn’t have the grid to support diverted traffic like NYC. Secondly, Decatur’s economy is a bit more fragile than the financial capital of the world and shutting down one major street in Decatur would have more of an impact than shutting down one major street in a city of major streets, no?
1) Air quality does matter and proximity of cars clearly effects that. b) Nor does Decatur have the amount of traffic as NYC.
2) No. Where do you get ‘fragile’? I think our current approach is emphasizing a false belief that parking is scarce. Do you have any real world examples.
It is my view that closing the car parade (that is virtually all it is) on the north side of the square would only help business. Right now 8 out of 10 of the drivers that tour the loop looking for a spot are being confronted with a lack of parking. When in reality there are plenty of spaces just a stones throw away.
Were these drivers to know that there was no parking infront of the their favorite haunt, (but more cool outdoor seating) they’d know where to go to find parking on the first attempt. They wouldn’t have to start their visit with an obsessive drive by. It would only take a trip of two to learn where the new best parking was located and only one trip to know that these shops were better with a lawn than a lot.
But hey, I haven’t thought about this much. Although I looks like Scott knows of about 30 or so places where increased green space has improved businesses interests. Are business interest the you only barometer on this?
I’m with you on finding a middle ground. Perhaps that’s just removing most of the parking area, leaving handicapped parking and a loading zone to keep the beers from getting jostled in hand trucks for too long?
Pat, are you talking about getting rid of the stub of street and parking spaces that runs along the east side of the square? (in front of Brick Store) If so, that would explain part of the disconnect. The rest of us are talking about banning cars on Ponce between Church St and Commerce, as suggested by Big Fat Car Guy. At least, that’s what I’ve been talking about.
Quite the opposite, actually. Over the course of the past four decades, about 200 street closure/pedestrian malls have been installed. All but 30 or so have been ripped out.
Some do work, and work well, but when they do it’s for very specific reasons. Most notably, high levels of tourists in town for reasons other than just the mall and large populations of non-car users (such as universities) in walkable proximity. Decatur has neither.
Closing Main Street in a place like Decatur is an investment in failure.
But we do have universities and tourist. Especially if you count all our court house tourists. As for 15% success rate, certainly Decatur considers itself in the top of this class.
Can you give examples of tourist towns where this has worked?
I very much like Carnaby Street London but here in the US…
In 2009, there were at least 75 pedestrian malls in the U.S. [3] Besides the Kalamazoo Mall, some notable examples are the Church Street Marketplace in Burlington, Vermont; the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, Virginia; Ann Arbor, Michigan; the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica, California; the Fremont Street Experience in Las Vegas, Nevada; the Buffalo Place Main Street Pedestrian Mall in Buffalo, New York; Ithaca Commons in Ithaca, New York; the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder, Colorado; St. Charles, Missouri; Salem, Massachusetts; Ped Mall in Iowa City, Iowa; Lincoln Road in Miami Beach, Florida; the Fulton Mall in Fresno, California; the 16th Street Mall in Denver, Colorado; State Street in Madison, Wisconsin; Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis, Minnesota; The Grove in Los Angeles, California; Fort Street Mall in Honolulu, Hawaii; City Center in Oakland, California; Walnut Street in Des Moines, Iowa, Downtown Crossing and Faneuil Hall/Quincy Market in Boston; Washington Street Mall in Cape May, New Jersey; The Downtown Cumberland Mall in Cumberland, Maryland;and many others. Typically these downtown pedestrian malls were three or four linear blocks simply blocked off to private street traffic, with fountains, benches, sittable planters, bollards, playgrounds, interfaces to public transit and other amenities installed to attract shoppers.
(from Wikipedia)
Thank ya! Will have to look through these later.
No need to speak to a lot of these, as they’re tourist economies that thrive because of very heavy tourist and/or student traffic (or both) and/or (in some cases) have light rail running down the middle of them. However, of note, are some of the more “normal”/comparable-to-Decatur places listed. Here’s some more current updates I’ve seen on those:
Buffalo Place Main Street Pedestrian Mall in Buffalo: Being ripped out and two-way traffic restored.
Ithaca Commons in New York: Has underperformed consistently for years and is currently undergoing another renovation effort.
St. Charles, MO (assuming this means the N. 14th Street Mall): Died last year after years on life-support.
Walnut Street in Des Moines, Iowa: Removed and replaced with restored streets and transit hub.
The ones that have thrived are exceptions, not the rule. Too many average places have learned that lesson the hard way.
I’m not sure I’d call the Church Street mall in Burlington a tourism area. It’s not a destination like Stowe or Killington. However, I’ll grant you that it’s the only place with a population over 35,000 in Vermont, the only shopping between Montreal and Boston, and a college town. I think it’s the Vermont ethic—why drive when you can walk or cross-country ski in 20 degrees below zero weather and gale force Lake Champlain winds? And Burlington proper is small enough that you can walk to Church Street from about anywhere in town. Now, once you’re outside of Burlington….it’s another story–snow chains, ski mobiles, SUVs, and snow plows rule!
Oh, and the Kalamazoo Mall that kicks off the list restored auto traffic, in a reasonable and calmed way, in 2000.
Scott makes some good points. Implementation is the key. My problem with some of these pedestrian malls (even if I enjoy them) is they tend to emphasize a tourism kistch that seems inauthentic even when executed well.
Closing that section of Ponce is done several times a year for special events. I’ve had no trouble getting around or into the Square area during those times. It seems an easy and natural place to look for expanding the tight Square quarters.
That said, I think that the main problem with the Square is tight quarters and choppy sectioning by objects such as the obelisk and gazebo. Would it be sacrilege to propose reorganizing that space before permanently closing a street to cars?
At one time, one could actually drive around the old courthouse, the streets were all connected from the four cardinal directions. But alas, the MARTA Decatur station arrived, and a street plan that worked,(and still would) was cast aside. Hence the choppy street segments.
2 cents:(Why not make Ponce through d’town a tollway, that seems popular these days?)
Isn’t this discussion really about locals wanting to walk to these locations, and “out of towners” getting second billing? Really– how many folks from Marietta and Roswell, Duluth, Smyrna, read this blog any way–pipe up !! your driving privileges are in danger!!
I like Charlottesville’s downtown. There is handicap parking next to the “mall” but the assumption of drivers is that they park in easy to find and clearly marked decks and walk half a block to the mall. That is, the assumption is park and WALK, whereas we still mostly assume drive up the business. The C’ville mall has diverse businesses, lots of outdoor dining in the middle, low-key kids attractions, and LOTS OF SHADE. Many differences between Decatur and C’ville, but we could learn a lot there too.
Nearly all European towns/cities, tourist destinations or not, have pedestrian zones (trucks are normally allowed in for delivery).
+1
The best solution to limited resource problems is very rarely at one extreme or the other that completely favors one party at the complete expense of the other.
Slowing and ultimately discouraging traffic along Ponce should be more than sufficient. There is enough benefit of being able to drive (and park) between Commerce on Ponce to continue allowing cars on Ponce.
The Square is a victim of success. I like the idea of expanding that pedestrian mall area. We shouldn’t exclude Church or Trinity from such contemplation or even reconfiguring the old courthouse to support public uses on the square.
I can see the reasoning behind closing off Ponce but to also close off Trinity and Church would make it difficult for many Southside residents to get through Decatur — all traffic would have to use Commerce.
I didn’t mean to suggest closing off all of them. Just that we should consider other options besides closing Ponce.
A problematic side-effect to this proposal is the difficulty it might create for deliveries to restaurants and stores on the square — especially when it comes to heavier items like kegs. I think places like the Brick Store go through a couple of those a week.
Also, it’s probable that including stop signs along this route will greatly decrease the amount of through-traffic we get on Ponce anyway. Having those extra stops will make the route more of a pain, and hopefully more drivers will adapt by taking the Commerce route around town — isn’t this supposedly encouraged by the city (as far as through-traffic goes) anyway?
It certainly doesn’t eliminate all traffic in the area, but I think it would certainly help to cut down on it.
Compliance with a stop sign would have to be enforced, right? So why not just enforce the way it is now which, whenever peds are crossing, requires the same stop a Stop sign does?
This makes more sense to me. And while they’re at it, get serious about ticketing pedestrian scofflaws, too. They are more than an annoyance — they make everything more hazardous for everybody, just like their counterparts on two wheels and four wheels. If everybody would follow the rules we have, and focus energy on revising those rules that need it — instead of squabbling about which segment behaves the worst — then we would move toward a safer and more civilized transportation culture.
+1
But I think drivers have more of a pre-programmed (is this redundant?) response of stopping when they encounter one of the big, red, octagonal signs on the side of the road as opposed to the flimsy, plastic, not-quickly-recognized-by-most signs that are currently there.
There is documented evidence that mid-block stop signs actually encourage drivers to travel faster between them. Also, I’d be interested to know (although probably nobody knows) what proportion of drivers traversing that section of Ponce on a given day are regulars who are perfectly familiar with “the flimsy, plastic, not-quickly-recognized-by-most signs” and what they mean.
Fair point — actual stop signs might create different and/or more problems than the system we currently have.
But I feel pretty confident that actual stop signs would create fewer enforcement problems — either because drivers are more likely to know what they mean and respond in the desired manner or because there’s less “gray” area (i.e. “I didn’t *see* anybody waiting to cross the street”; “he/she wasn’t actually inside the crosswalk yet”; etc.)
Sadly, I don’t know of any hard evidence to support my suppositions, but it seems logical that the hard-and-fast rule of the stop sign would create fewer enforcement problems than the conditional command of the current signs.
(And again, I’m not saying the stop signs are a foolproof solution – they would still require some enforcement and may bring problems of their own.)
That reminds me…. I started to walk across Ridgeland in a crosswalk last night. A dark Volvo station wagon approached directly at me then went into the opposing lane on the other side of the “stop for pedestrian” sign, cut me off midcrossing, ran the stop sign to make a left onto Sycamore Dr. then went on their merry way.
It was very weird, like they were trying to break as many traffic laws in the shortest time frame as possible.
Very dangerous stunt that driver pulled. As a driver I once stopped on the crosswalk on S. Candler to let a pedestrian cross and the car behind me went around me, through the crosswalk. Luckily, the pedestrian was not hit. It shook me up quite a bit.
I’ve had drivers pull similar maneuvers when I was stopped at Oakview/East Lake and also at Oakview/Adams (both 4-way stop intersections).
I see that one all the time on 10th Street Midtown. Especially around the active school drop off there.
Maybe there should be a container of high visibility, safety orange bowling balls for pedestrians to carry when crossing the street- to help drivers focus on civility.
Is this so the motorcycle cop can have more stop signs at which to ticket cyclists?
Actually I agree that cars need to be signaled to stop here. The problem is there’s already so much distracting drivers in this area that more signs will probably be ignored. I like the pedestrian-activated signal on S. McDonough at the Agnes Scott parking deck, but it would be an eyesore at the above-mentioned area. Sure would like to see one of those at the tunnel-crosswalk on E. College (in front of Agnes Scott) though!
I like the idea of pedestrian signals at more crosswalks in Decatur. I agree the crosswalk in front of Agnes Scott needs something like that. Also, I think the crosswalk at Candler and Winnona/E Dougherty would be another good location especially with all the kids walking to from Renfroe and Winnona Park when the crossing guard isn’t on duty.
I agree.
When I read the subject line the first few times I kept looking for an explanation of why the Mayor thinks the City Staff are asses and what he was asking them to stop doing. Then I read more carefully.
Congratulations!
You won the internet today.
+1
Same. I had to read it 3 or 4 times to get DM’s intended meaning. As for the topic, I’m generally for pedestrian-friendly changes, especially inside Commerce.
Forgot to add a “to” in there!
Who is this stealing my name?
Hmmmm, which of us is the good JC and which is the baaaaad JC?
Jesus is just alright with me. JC too.
It’s a problem on Ponce between Church and Candler, too. What is the speed limit? How about lowering it? I’ve seen research documenting that installing stop signs is not an effective way to slow traffic, and is sometimes actually counterproductive. Stop signs are intended for –and effective at — controlling intersections. There are other measures that are better for calming speed.
Why don’t we just get some better crosswalks?
There was a mid-block crossing in Athens, GA that was especially dangerous because cars tended to approach it well above the speed limit, and it was a main crossing between a commuter parking lot and north campus buildings. They installed a push button and flashing light system that enabled a pedestrian to walk up and push a button, making lights all along the walkway flash. If the lights were flashing, cars had to stop. It completely eliminated the problem of cars not knowing if people were trying to cross or not, and you could see the lights from far enough away to have time to slow and stop.
There’s a crosswalk just like this next to Agnes Scott. It works decently well from what I’ve seen.
I’ve activated that signal many times and still had to wait for four or five cars to pass before one stopped. Just one person’s experience.
Didn’t they install some of those out on the Buford Hwy somewhere? Wonder how are they working out?
They also have them just past Memorial Dr on Candler. I have never seen them being used although I am sure they are on Sundays because they are in front of the AME Church.
Yes, they have those on Buford Hwy. I have not used them as a pedestrian. They seem like they take a while. Also the light turns red, then flashes red after which is confusing to drive through at first. Still, a huge improvement over what was there before which was nothing, with a turn lane in the middle (now there’s a median).
I like this better than the stop sign idea. But I also like the mayor’s idea to look at the issue. I am all for stopping cars! While most cars do stop for pedestrian’s there, some drivers act very annoyed. I guess that is because they may also miss the green light at Church. One driver actually gave me the 3 finger salute yesterday afternoon. I bet that person would not like me on my bike either!
There are crosswalks like this all over London– plus, they have yellow flashing lights on poles at either side of the street where the walks are placed. To top it all off, there are STEEP fines for vehicles that don’t stop when the lights are flashing. Doing both seems to work very well there, don’t see why it couldn’t work here (that might, in fact, be where Officer Lindsay could really come in handy, and might be too busy to be ticketing unwary cyclists
).
To quote Fred Boykin in response to my zigzag lines approaching crosswalks idea back in 2009…
“The Green Book is the design guidebook for traffic engineers – and nearly 100% of the time – “if it ain’t in the Green Book, it ain’t going to get built that way”. Last updated in 2005, the current revision is in the works and pedestrian/bicycle facility design engineers are trying really hard to get the new version to reflect more design options like the “zig-zag”. I know a number of folks involved in that effort and it’s a hard go – engineers are a conservative lot and there’s a good deal of “but we’ve always done it this way”
The MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices) covers every road sign & signal used in the USA. It also covers where to place them and what “warrants” their need. I think it was last updated in 2003. Again – “if it ain’t in the MUTCD, we’re not going to put it up” And again, I know a number of folks trying to get updated information in the current revision. Two good examples are the green bike boxes that Roswell recently installed and the “sharrows” that Athens has installed on some shared car/bike lanes. (A sharrow is an arrow with a bike symbol added to it painted along the edge of the street indicating to the cyclist where to ride and alerting drivers to share the road. Neither are “official” and I bet there is some question of liability, but both cities decided to use them. Decatur has sharrows listed in the Transportation Plan, but they aren’t “official” because they aren’t in the MUTCD.
If I haven’t put anyone to sleep yet – and you’ve made it this far – now you know why it is so hard to get the “okay” to try some of this stuff.”
Yep, I can dig it– but it’s just too bad no one will try to think outside the circles on this one.
I agree with your flashing light idea. Sometimes it’s hard to see if there are people looking to cross because of parked cars and I feel like I’m driving through some sort of video game…is someone going to pop out suddenly? And sometimes they do pop out, unaware that not everybody slows down or even stops for these crosswalks.
Also, I’m confused about other zebra crossings that don’t have the stop signs, like down by the post office on Ponce. Are we supposed to yield to pedestrians in that one or not?
I think we already have a pedestrian mall, and for places on Ponce, being visible to cars driving by helps bring new business in.
As the Mayor already comes to a complete stop at each crosswalk, adding stop signs would make it safer to drive behind him.
I think the way the cross walks are now are just fine. Almost without fail people stop at them on their own when they see someone crossing.
Stop signs would be ugly… and my jaded and suspicious self has to admit that I am concerned this is less about public safety and more about generating revenue through traffic tickets.
True dat. Stop signs would look like poopy.
Pedestrian malls actually increase business. People love to walk. The friendlier downtown gets to pedestrians the more people will come frequent the businesses.
My hometown (Richmond, IN) introduced a pedestrian mall after an explosion ripped out a block of downtown in 1968. They planned carefully and provided lots of parking and put the central bus transfer point in the middle. This moved the main thoroughfares to either side of the city center.
Most of the downtown businesses, including the largest movie theatre and a local department store, died or moved to the malls on the outside of town. Empty storefronts were the rule rather than the exception.
30 years later, they tore the Promenade up and replaced it with a narrowed Main Street with head-in parking. Businesses are slowly returning to downtown.
I know a single data point does not a study make, but we should be very careful about eliminating traffic in the city center.
I have no desire to turn downtown Decatur into a pedestrian mall. I wouldn’t mind the stop signs. I try to be a careful driver, especially in my own neighborhood. Many times I get the horn or the finger. Too bad. In fact I got a horn blast just recently because when the light turned green I had to depress the clutch and shift into first before proceeding. What did that take? One second?
What about the delivery trucks so that the bars/restaurants/stores can get deliveries and stay in business?
I see the Sysco trucks, beer trucks, etc. regularly blocking the west lane on Trinity trying to make deliveries to the places on North McDonough, stopped in the middle of East Ponce trying to make deliveries to East Court Square and blocking one or both lanes on Ponce de Leon Place. They don’t have any other places to deliver. If the city shuts streets down or bottle necks it anymore than they already have, I’m worried we will lose some of our businesses. I have spoken to two potential investors/owners in the past couple years who wanted to bring their restaurants to Decatur (a fabulous Cuban place and a deli) but they said they just couldn’t do it after looking at all the factors to include patron and delivery access. I love our downtown area but we have lost shops, etc. because they simply were not making enough money to survive, NOT making it hand over fist, survive. I think the honest truth here is that our small community cannot support our businesses alone and we have to have outsiders coming in and spending their money. If we make it harder, they won’t come. I already have friends and family that pipe up and discourage places around the square when I make the suggestion because they don’t like driving/parking in downtown Decatur. I don’t see the problem, but I live here and know Decatur like the back of my hand. But I can’t shop and eat out every day.
Good points.
Was the Cuban place CocoLoco? They closed several months ago and I’ve hoped against hope that they would relocate here.
Use to be Mambo’s in the Highlands, it’s in a hotel off Peachtree now.
That’s the thing. There’s not a shortage of parking, but people driving in not familiar with the area, don’t seem to know where to access it. That’s a problem.
Thinking about this, part of the issue is signage certainly. And we’ve discussed that at length here.
But another part is Trinity. If we are successful in turning Trinity from a secondary “B” street into a primary thoroughfare in the city, more people will become aware of the DeKalb County parking deck regardless of their destination. Does the parking deck stand in the way of improving that streetscape? Sure. But that’s the double-edge sword that is parking.
Trinity is already choked with traffic in the mornings & afternoons due to DHS & STM drop-offs/pickups. The loss of the through lane going west @ Commerce stacks up traffic. So does the ridiculous intersection @ Ponce (due to the bike lanes, loss of right turn lane & no turn on right restriction). BTW, I have yet to see one, not even one biker using the bike lanes & intersection “improvements” since they were implemented last year. All this has done is make dropping off and picking up my child @ STM much more of a hassle.
I have biked on this stretch Ponce twice a day for four years. I have seen an increase in pedestrian and bike use along this neighborhood street since the bike lane/narrowing project has been completed. This is, in my opinion, a vast improvement.
I use it 2x a day to midtown on my bike. Ponce is now bike friendly all the way to Moreland and then I cut through pretty neighborhoods.
You should see the parade of bikers, runners and walkers on the weekends on W Ponce. Makes the street much better. Only time backed up traffic is an issue is during STM dropoff/pickup. AND, it seems like those parents are the most vocal complainers about the change-how dare those decatur people inconvenience them (yes I know there are plenty of decatur taxpayers that use STM and may like or dislike the change, but I am a bit weary of the non residents complaining about this: W Ponce is not your exit ramp, it’s a residential street.)
Sorry, I meant for my comments on lack of bike lanes use to refer to Trinty; not Ponce. I have used the Ponce lanes; but still haven’t seen anyone using the Trinty lanes.
sorry if I came down on you Mic, I agree, not too much bike traffic on Trinity yet. Maybe it will pick up after the construction across from the PD is complete and folks can figure out which lane they are suppose to be in (lots of erasures in all those painted lines). Looks like a good route from Winnona Park/ Avondale to intown.
I do not believe that. I walk along Ponce and much other areas nearby, at least twice a day, and have for years. There are definitely more bikes and pedestrians. And for that I say “hurray”.
offtopic, but has anyone else been hearing what sounds like heavy fireworks / mortars (are the zombies here) for the past 10 minutes?
I’m in lenox place and they sound like they are coming from great lakes
Emory Homecoming
http://www.emorywheel.com/detail.php?n=30089
good to know. I figured when I heard 1, then 2,3,4,5 it was transformers and then it kept going. I was about to enter the Lenox Place Zombie Fortress.
My kids were thrilled but parents (us) were tired. Immediately my husband said “it’s the 4th of July fireworks that were rescheduled – we’re so lame that we forgot”. Remembered – end of concert series on Sat. Sept. 24th was the date for the Decatur fireworks. Knew DM wouldn’t let us down to remind us beforehand…please remind us beforehand???
Yep, I will! It’s on the list!
Closer to home, Toccoa, Ga and Raleigh, NC, closed their main streets to traffic when it was popular in the 70’s and 80’s. Both were disasters to businesses in the downtown. Both have recently reintroduced cars with other pedestrian improvements and both are thriving. Under the proper conditions, cars are an enhancement, especially to retail.
Spartanburg, SC and Memphis, TN also did — and later undid — pedestrian malls.
Have any pedestrians been hit, or is this out of an abundance of caution? I think it’s fine to call more attention to crosswalks, but actual stop signs don’t really seem necessary.
Little five points is an example of a place that was made more pedestrian friendly by eliminating roads. Worked pretty well, but with some pretty obvious unintended consequences.
Yep.
We need shopmobility (I think I’ve posted this link before)!
http://www.shopmobilityuk.org/UsingShopmobility.asp
Personally, I rarely encounter a problem with the cosswalk on Ponce near the square. However, the one on Church street close to Sapori (Not the light in front of the MARTA station), I have almost met my maker there many times—often having to stop in the middle while cars keep coming through and even HONKING at me.
I also think banning cars on Pomce is a little extreme. If the goal is to decrease speed between Commerce and Church, why not just install speed bumps? Since the Square is such a ped heavy area, I could see putting them down Church to Trinity as well.
Re stop signs: Like the Mayor, I tend to reflexly stop or at least slow way down at the various Ponce pedestrian crossings . (See other thread where I coincidently mentioned that.) So I’m fine with a stop sign or flashing warning. I agree that such accoutrements would not be elegant but the pro-safety, pro-pedestrian theme would probably be attractive to many. And then my kids could stop complaining about my slowing down.
Re speed bumps: I hate them but they work. After flying over them once and hearing the underside of my car meet the body of the car, I learn quickly.
Re pedestrian malls: I think they work better in certain locales than others. They work well in Santa Monica, California, and Burlington, Vermont. Not sure what they have in common–it’s not the weather, maybe the politics. It does seem like a dicey time economically so maybe not a good time to experiment with a new model of downtown.
I hate them as well, but I agree—they seem to be the most effective way to reduce speed. After years of watching cars AND the UPS driver ignore the speed limit signs and the “children at play” signs while taking turns on 2 wheels inside our condo community, we installed speed bumps. I have to say, it has totally eliminated that problem.
Why not incorporate speed bumps into the crosswalks by elevating the crosswaalks? I’ve seen this done in many places.
+1
The stretch of Ponce between Commerce has two easily identifiable traffic problems: pass through traffic that doesn’t intend to stop and cars cruising for a parking space. A new stop sign may encourage the cut through traffic to use Commerce, but a better option might be better timing of traffic lights on Commerce to separate the pass through and regional traffic from the distinctly local traffic.
To reduce cruising for parking, Decatur should take a lesson from San Francisco. Microchips are placed in each parking space and are are networked. The devices indicate whether the space is empty or has a car parked over it. A phone app or electronic sign tells drivers in real time where open spaces are located. Thereby reducing cruising. This parking technology also measures demand for parking, and pricing for parking can be varaible to match demand. Thus a parking space in front of Brick Store at 10 PM on Saturday might be priced at considerably higher then at 10 AM on Sunday morning. Eventually public and private spaces could be included in the same network and the price of parking could be more free market oriented.
Parking should never be free and the price should always be separated from the cost of housing, goods and services. Walkers, bikers, transit riders and carpoolers are paying for the convenience of parking – a convenience they should not subsidize. “Free parking” simply encourages and subsidizes cars. The cost of proving parking dramaticaly affects the cost of redevelopment and maintenance. These costs are passed along in the price of housing, goods and services. Parking requirements should be vastly overhauled and lowered.
One last idea. Merchants love free parking and will oppose all increases in parking fees. The most successful way to implement higher parking fees is to dedicate the revenue from parking meters to the upkeep of the sidewalks, streetscapes, parks and other public spaces in the parking district so that the merchants see a benefit for the parking fees.
Great ideas. Thank you
All great ideas, but I especially get the suggestion about better timing the lights on W Ponce and Commerce going downtown. Frequently I drive straight through downtown on Ponce, when I’d planned to use Commerce, because the light stays green on straight ahead traffic longer than the left turn onto Commerce.
Careful there–using a phone app will driving around to find a parking space?
If one has an accident from the distraction, I think it’s a $500 fine in Dekalb County.
Could be a great revenue generator in reverse.(No pun intended)