Decatur High Principal Addresses Earlier Start Time; AJC’s Downey Responds
Decatur Metro | April 12, 2011Decatur High School Principal Lauri McKain sent a note out to DHS parents this morning regarding the proposed earlier start time for the high school that will be voted on at tonight’s School Board meeting. If you were not one of the lucky few, you can read the note in full on her blog, but here’s a snippit…
Although it is a fairly significant shift earlier (50 minutes), all the other schools in the district had to be considered and staggered due to shared buses. There were a variety of options and topics discussed. Dr. Edwards listened intently as principals discussed feedback from teachers and parents about research around teenagers and optimal school performance. It was very clear in this research that the peak start time is around 10:00 a.m. However, this is not an option at this time. Therefore, when given the choice to be the first school to start or the last, the above reasons [editor's summary: after-school activities going late, time for after-school tutorial], weighed heavily in my preference for an earlier start time. I believe the students will successfully adjust. Some of our neighboring high schools start earlier—or within 15 minutes of that time. I am confident Decatur’s students will be able to do so as well.
And about 30 minutes ago, the AJC’s Maureen Downey posted the same paragraph of McKain’s note and then continued…
I remain surprised how few high schools in the state have responded to the growing body of evidence in favor of later starting times. I know that many of you will counter that kids need to get accustomed to real life and that may mean rising at dawn. And your advice would be to tell teens to buck up and set their alarm for two hours earlier.
But if schools are designed to maximize learning, shouldn’t we consider when and how kids learn best? I believe that schools undermine their own purpose when their design, schedule and structure fail to reflect what we know about optimum learning conditions.
She continues on with an editorial she wrote back “a few years ago” about student sleep deprivation. Certainly, yet another interesting development in this ongoing story.
But someone please riddle me this. If we were to, say, push everyone’s start time an hour later in the day, what do you lose time for later in the day? Anything? Does that force everyone to stay up an hour later? Where does that extra hour of sleep come from?
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This article is a good overview of the science behind kids and sleep:
http://nymag.com/news/features/38951/
It’s pretty persuasive, in my opinion.
That is some serious nonsense. A: The research clearly states that later start times are better for teens and education. B: Our [optional] athletic program needs the earlier start time. C: Oh well.
% of school days students walking in the dark (assuming a 20 minute walk to school)
7:45 start time: 46% of days
8:00 start time: 20% of days
Dunwoody HS start time 8:05
Druid Hills HS start time 8:10
Lakeside HS start time: 8:05
Even moving the schedule as written back 15 minutes helps students without hurting the athletics. Aside: What is the justification for starting the Middle Schools at 7:45?
% of CSD parents complaining
3
School reorganization is driving education decisions, not the other way around.
“If we were to, say, push everyone’s start time an hour later in the day, what do you lose time for later in the day?”
Homework
Music lessons
Hanging out with friends unsupervised with illegal substances.
Athletics
“Hanging out with friends unsupervised with illegal substances.”
If this is the goal, the school day should probably end at 4:21.
“Hanging out with friends unsupervised with illegal substances.”
Or, you know, hanging out with friends helping the less fortunate or being creative or finding the cure for cancer or just being kids.
CSD
Changing Smart Decisions.
Clearly Sleep Deprived.
Please outsmart me on this clever DM readers.
It seems like every 12-18 months, there an upheaval reversing a strategy.
Why?
Were expectations of the new stategy too high?
Was new strategy not clearly thought out or not well executed, quickly enough?
I am disappointed in our system, which struggles hard to meet its full potential. It is better than neighboring school systems but to me that’s not good enough.
If Athletics has anything to do with this decision then Decatur Schools are heading in the wrong direction. How about starting High School and Middle School at 9:30 and letting the sports teams practice before school?
On a similar note, a number of us dads were talking the other day and we’ve decided to boycott DHS sports until they start charging a reasonable price for admission – maybe $4 for adults, $2 for students, kids under 5 for free – I want to support the School but the current prices are just too high – taking a family of 5 to a game can cost $50 bucks with a few concession purchases.
Why do athletics always come up in this conversation? If athletics participation is mostly for the minority of students, why not put practices and even games BEFORE school? Who says you can’t play baseball at 7:00 AM?
Who will the DHS baseball team play at 7:00am?
Couple of things – (1) close to half of DHS students participate in athletics, so it may be a minority but it is a large minority; (2) athletics have been flexible for years with practice times because of the shortage of facilities. Boys basketball practiced at 6:00 am at the Rec Center for years. The athletic program will adjust to whatever the admin/board decides (but you will never see games at 7:00 am).
Where’s karass? Is is sick or injured? KARAASSSSS-there is a CSD thread and no KARRRASSSS!
Jeesh. Can’t anything in CSD happen without my assistance!
Short version: It’s about buses.
Long version: Whatever decision is made will be framed with a reasonable justification. But it’s about buses. I like many of the creative or flexible solutions suggested in this and other threads plus stuff folks are sharing on listservs and emails. DHS SLT discussed officially and members preferred keeping same start time or going no earlier than 8 AM. I’m glad this didn’t end up pitting the little kid parents vs big kid parents. High school kids don’t seem to be into protests or bomb threats anymore–too many issues, too many wars, too little time, I guess. In the end, it’s about buses.
Flex time for high school students and staff – could be a perfect solution. After all, we are a charter system! A 1 high school system like Decatur is just the place to beta test. Students w/o after-school commitments can choose to start class “3rd period” around 9:30-10:00 and finish later. I foresee how motivating it could be to have input class start times. Transition what we loved in college down to the high school level.
Teachers can work an “extended day” schedule if needed and approved by the local districts (already permitted by state). And there are great teachers who want a part time day. Facility costs will be minimal given that the buildings are already used for optional programs like tutoring and practices.
“But someone please riddle me this. If we were to, say, push everyone’s start time an hour later in the day, what do you lose time for later in the day? Anything? Does that force everyone to stay up an hour later? Where does that extra hour of sleep come from?”
The issue isn’t about lengthening the day or magically finding an extra hour for kids to sleep… The idea is that we have kids in school at a time that is optimal for academic growth… Which for middle schoolers is NOT 7:45 in the morn.
Well that doesn’t sound like what I’m asking “isn’t an issue”, just that you would sacrifice that extra evening hour for extra sleep.
If this is such an epidemic, why don’t we just eliminate the summer break and shorten the school day? Other studies show that this is when the disadvantaged kids fall behind. Kill two birds with one stone.
As logical as all-year school and shorter days sound, I wouldn’t go there. The serial Moms will get you for that.
Awesome. I love “don’t go there” topics. Especially when they’re potential solutions to problems.
Definitely go there, (but only after everyone has sat out a round from this battle).
I got your back, DM.
Serial Moms? Pshaw!
Actually, I’m glad you’re going there. Given the world of two career families, kids struggling academically, limited school resources, the discussion should be had. But it’s been had before here in Decatur and the scars from the knife wounds are proof. Serial moms do NOT like to have their summer vacations messed with.
I’m not saying it isn’t ever an issue. I’m saying the science and rationale around later starting times isn’t solely based on the fact that kids are tired at school because they aren’t getting enough sleep etc.
We could send kids to school all year long everyday and the fact would remain that the students optimal learning time would be later rather than earlier.
Look at it this way, regardless if Johnny Q goes to bed by 9,10, or 11 he’ll always be a more productive student later the following morning… Unless I’m misunderstanding some of the research floating around this issue.
As for the sacrifice part… I guess I’m sort of saying that, only I would look at it as sacrificing an extra evening HOUR for an extra morning HOUR… People may or may not choose to sleep on either end.
I am all for this new proposal. I really like the fact that we can get an earlier start to our day. I consider myself a morning person. But when i get home each day after school, either from finishing a day of practice, or going to a internship, i feel like my day is gone. With this extra hour or so i have to do work, i am not getting home in the late hours of the night, and then staying up all night. I think that this would be a great system to test, and in all reality, i know most students oppose it, but the benefits of the extra hour will probably be shortly approved.
Go Bulldogs
Happy to report that the board tabled the vote. They approved the transportation plan with an amendment to remove the bell schedule. They’re going to talk about it further and possibly hold a special session later this month.
I was pleased to see not only parents commenting, but also two Decatur teachers and one DHS student. Dr. E and the board members also commented that they got lots of emails about this, including some from current students.
There was a lot of discussion about getting some creative ideas on the table to sort this problem out, and the general consensus after all was said and done was that there was a lot more thinking to do, and that no one really wanted any of the schools starting before 8 a.m.
Thanks CSD M for the update. Who knows if the final outcome will be satisfactory to a lot of the commenters on here, but anyone has to admit, the Board (and the Super) does seem to listen and be responsive. This is twice now that they have postponed a decision to evaluate options, if I am not mistaken.
It seemed to me that there was a bit too much dart throwing at the administration on this issue and folks forgot how adaptive and flexible that they were with the recent K-3 reconfig.
Disclaimer: Personally in favor of earlier start times, generally.
Thank you school board. I have kids in middle, high and elementary next year so I don’t have a dog in this fight b/c I and one or more of my kids will have to get up well before dawn regardless.
I am proud to see that our school board is willing to mull this over rather than rubber stamp it.
Not sure what the best solution is. I do know that my 8th grader definitely has a different sleep schedule than my 5th grader, and it is clearly a biological thing that began with puberty. She will go to bed whenever we tell her to.. but she really can’t fall asleep early unless she is exhausted. She can sleep up to 12 hours easily while my younger two naturally wake up after 8 or 9 hours.
I know the kids will cope with whatever is thrown out there, and this isn’t a huge deal in the end. However, I do hope that student academic success trumps athletics (I will have a high school athlete next year) and bus schedules. Very few of our kids have futures as professional athletes. Most will need “regular” careers and will need a top notch education to succeed.
That’s great news. Thanks school board
Great that parents, teachers, and students felt free to speak up by email, blog, and at the meeting and great that School Board and CSD are listening. It’s a win for all. Meanwhile, since there’s time….couldn’t someone put together one of those cheap, easy polls so we could get a more general read of family and teacher sentiment? I’m truly interested in how people are affected by different options since there’s pluses and minuses to any bell schedule choice. I may have a strong personal preference but then modify it if I realize it has great negative impact on someone else. But while I normally jump in and volunteer for about anything our schools need, techno-volunteering is not something I can contribute.
One board member suggested they put together some options in the same way they did the 13-thousand reconfiguration options and 9-thousand reconfiguration maps. Then the community could see the pluses and minuses of each option and would see how doing it one way impacts one group and another way impacts another group. It sounded like they would be doing something like that.
The student who spoke also suggested surveying current high school and even middle school students. Since they all have email addresses and computer access while at school, this would be even easier than surveying parents and community members.
The school admin has the email for many parents. I get at least one email a week just because I am a parent.
Interesting tidbits for those of you (which is just about everyone) who were not there:
Our participation rate in athletics at the HS is 55%. Much higher than I expected.
One parent commenter pointed out the fact that some of our less-advantaged kids actually shoulder some parenting responsibility due to single parents who may be working late or night shifts–and they would be unable to get their younger siblings off to school with an earlier high school start time.
A CSD teacher pointed out that she would not be able to get her younger kids to school because she would have to report to work well before the elementary schools started.
Dr. E seemed hesitant to combine schools on the buses because of parent protest in the past, but this would actually save us a lot of money. As for me, I might not relish the idea of an 8th grader riding the bus with a 4th grader, or a high schooler riding the bus with a 6th grader, but we are just not talking about long bus rides and I think combining routes would benefit everyone. It is simply ridiculous to run buses for the high school students when most of them don’t ride anyway. Dr. E and the board talked at length about adding buses so we could keep palatable start times, but I remain convinced that with a little creativity, we could reduce our reliance on buses and still save money and not add more buses.
If we do combine buses, is it possible to require the older kids to sit near the bus driver – mandate that they sit in the first 5 rows. From my experiences on buses as a kid, the back of the bus is where the problems happen
The public comment speakers were impressive and articulate with the exception of the sleep deprived cognitively impaired scattered comments which I made. It was inspiring to see teachers, an administrator, high school student, parent athlete, and other parents all sending the same message from differently reasoned and reasonable perspectives. The high school student, whose name escaped me, was extremely well composed and articulate.
I would also echo the comments that it is great that our Board and Superintendent are willing to slow down and give these issues more consideration. Dr. Edwards did a good job describing the many factors which have to be balanced, and asked the Board to set parameters to guide further consideration.
It was really great to hear the board members thinking out loud and deliberating. I’m sure a lot of careful thought and consideration goes into all of their decisions. But it was particularly nice to see it in action.
John Ahmann wanted to know what the costs are to keep the current schedule. Theresa Link provided that each bus costs $40K. Julie Rhame, if I recall correctly, indicated a desire that no school start before 8AM and that we start by looking at what works best for High School start times and work the times backward from there. I read into that an ideal desire for DHS times to be last, RMS next, and so on. But I may simply be inferring my own preference.
Marc Wisniewski pointed out that it isn’t simply athletics versus education. Athletics is part of a well rounded education and that the old stereo-types of geeks and jocks no longer applies. I believe it was Bernadette Seals who provided the number that 55% of our students are student athletes.
–And that unfortunately was the point where I had to step out to relieve the babysitters…
Having been involved in school track, cross-country, tennis, and football during my high school years, and other sports outside school… I have to agree with the importance of athletics. Though I have a hard time accepting regressing to earlier start times which would compromise the educational well-being of all students for extra-curricular activities. Especially when other school districts have face and solved all of the problems that have been brought to light.
Speaking of which, a great paper was brought to my attention which describes how schools which have implemented late start times have worked around and balanced these issues: http://edr.sagepub.com/content/40/2/56.abstract
The 55% athletics involvement number is extremely impressive. Almost to the point of making me wanting to fact check it to make sure students aren’t being counted twice
-I do hope we can do some out of the box thinking which will allow the school day to accommodate athletics while minimizing the impact on academics.
I hope the process process going forward will allow alternative viable options drawn from the community. I hope there is out of the box thinking and questioning of the assumptions built into our constraints. And I hope each option is shown in the best possible light, without being unnecessarily undermined by an easily correctable tweak related to the combination of the constraining factors.
So looking forward, I hope we can see a re-think of the current proposal, the costs to stay with the current start times, a conservative thinking RMS+DHS late start proposal, and one or two reasonable outside the box options.
I hope that middle and high school students are polled. I’m particularly curious how many:
1) bus riders would be willing to give up the bus in exchange for later start times
2) bus riders would be comfortable using Marta buses
3) students act as care givers for younger siblings
4) working students would be negatively affected by later start times
5) students who participate in extracurricular activities would be unwilling to participate in activities before school or after a later end time
*) Frankly it’d be nice to ask many of the same questions to parents and teachers
I assume we have some parents or community members with experience in communications who would be willing to lend their services to help create an unbiased survey. I think our involved and engaged community is one of our greatest assets. I hope our school system as a whole will continue to develop expand and improve opportunities to be involved.
Eliza Stone-Cribb was the high school student. Eloquent and heartfelt.
The Oakhurst, Winnona and Clairemont SLT’s sent a Transition Questionnaire to all K-3 families. They are using Zoomerang Surveys. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
I was not one of the “lucky few” to get the note from Ms. McKain, but I was simply shocked that the principal of the high school would prefer/choose/support/lobby for ….a 7:45 start time. Reading her post (thanks for the handy link), was illuminating, and not in a good way. The 1st paragraph makes it clear that athletics drove the decision, despite all the protestations to the contrary at the board meeting.
Her priority, at least in the post, is accomodating athletics ["We believe that moving up practices and game departures by just 15 minutes will reduce stress on coaches, athletes and their families."]. Later she notes that a 7:45 start would be a “fairly significant shift,” but goes on to say that they can’t start school at the optimal time of 10:00 am, as though the only two choices were 10:00 or 7:45 am.
I must be stupid because I cannot figure out how it would be one bit harder to share practice space later in the afternoon. Same space, right? What changes 45 minutes later in the day? ["When we moved to ending the day at 3:30, it pushed back practice times to 4pm, and it became more difficult to share our space."]
And as long as I’m being stupid, could someone explain to me why kids who live on the same street or in the same house (you know, siblings), are incapable of being picked up by the same bus????
I’m reminded of the Dilbert strip “Anything I don’t understand is easy to do…” (http://search.dilbert.com/comic/Understand%20Easy)
Just fielding your last question on issues related to mixing primary, middle, and/or high school students on the bus… Puberty and isolating kids before, during, and after is the usual argument. It also happens to reflect the fact that we do the same thing by having elementary, middle, and high schools.
I know at least one middle school bus driver who segregates her bus by grade with youngest at the front working to oldest at the back. -Which is the typical self-segregating experience I recall growing up…
Adding a question of my own… Would it be possible to revisit the number and spacing of bus stops? Back when we all walked 5 miles uphill both ways rain, sleet, or snow… I recall elementary school students walking up to 1/4 mile to get to their bus stop. A google maps fact check on my memory confirms it. I don’t know, but I’d be curious to learn what are the maximum preferred and allowed distances between stops for elementary, middle, and high school students?
Dig… Dig… Dig…
Georgia Code provides a maximum: “The standard walking distance to trunk bus routes shall not be more than one-half mile. In addition to the standard walking distance, walk route conditions, road conditions and satisfactory turnaround places shall be considered in planning spur routes.” (http://www.gadoe.org/_documents/doe/legalservices/160-5-3-.10.pdf)
Preferred distances are found in an Minnesota school district example in a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) publication dated July 1, 2010: Selecting School Bus Stop Locations: A Guide for School Transportation Professional (http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nti/buses/pdf/SelectingSchoolBusStopLocations.pdf):
“Transportation Department guidelines for walking to a bus stop are .1 mile for kindergarten, .2 mile elementary, and .3 mile for secondary students. However, if it is more economical when developing bus routes to increase the distance from the home to the bus stop, these guidelines will not apply and students may walk longer distances to bus stops.”
I wonder where we fall with regards to these guidelines for elementary, middle, and high school students?
I have an open-source PostgreSQL database capable and optimized for doing geo-spatial queries with genetic query optimization for these kinds of Traveling Salesman problems. I’m not particularly experience in this area, but I could follow the paths others have documented to try to capture the possibilities and constraints weighting relative factors and producing comparisons of current and proposed solutions. Or better yet, I imagine there are probably already several folks in our community who have considerable experience in this area and would be willing to help out. In which case, I’d be happy to work with the school district to help them get the data into a format with which our community experts are comfortable working.
OMG – Garrett, you lost me in the last paragraph, but sure… go ahead and do that geo-spatial SQL thingy. Garrett for school board!
+ 1
I already have a slogan: Garrett cares, Garrett shares (data).
I wonder about the 55% athletics participation rate too. It seems high, especially at the high school level and especially because ninth grade and middle school teams have been cut. On the other hand, athletics do seem to include a higher proportion of students than they used to, with lots of girls’ teams and a wider range of sports beyond football and basketball, e.g. swimming, cross-country, lacrosse, soccer, etc. I’d like to know:
1. Is all of that 55% made up of school teams or are other kinds of participation being included, e.g. PE courses, Decatur Rec, conditioning leading up to tryouts.
2. Is that a true percentage (# of students participating in a school sport/#students or did someone just add up the number of players on all the teams and divide by the student body count. The latter yields an inaccurately high percentage because it double counts students who participate on more than one team.
3. What is the proportion by grade? I suspect that it is higher in middle school and lower with each increasing grade because of the competitiveness of the teams.
4. Just for fun, what is the proportion by sex? I’m sure the disparity between girls and boys is decreasing…hence our awesome girls teams!