Decatur Square Will Soon Get Athletic Field Treatment
Decatur Metro | July 27, 2011If you’ve been on or near Decatur Square lately, you’ve probably noticed its sorry state. Huge patches of dirt interspersed with sporadic remnants of something that was probably grass.
It ain’t pretty.
We’ve been hearing rumblings of changes and improvements coming to Decatur Square over the last few months. In fact, improvements to the parched Square are part of Decatur’s 2010 Strategic Plan [PDF]. However, the just released July/August Decatur Focus [PDF] provides the most detail we heard on the coming overhaul of our most public space.
In the 32 years since the station was completed, the lawn area above [the MARTA station] has deteriorated. The drain lines under the lawn have failed, the catch basins have become clogged, the irrigation system has broken and the soil has become compacted to the consistency of concrete.
Until recently, the lawn would bounce back after a nice rest during the winter months and be ready for the start of festival season each spring. Not this year.
….After 32 years, it is time to replenish the lawn and create an environment that will once again allow turf to flourish. We also need to plant additional trees in the area to make sure we have large-growth trees and shady areas for future generations to enjoy.
We’ve had a landscape firm assess the south lawn and develop a plan to improve the area. The plan includes a combination of mulched tree groves and lawn areas similar to what exists today. The lawn areas will be treated similar to the way we construct athletic fields. The soil will be removed, new drain lines installed and a layer of gravel added to help with drainage. A new soil mixture designed to resist compaction will be added and new turf planted that can stand up to sun and use. Just as we do with our athletic fieds, the area will be placed on a regular maintenance program to help the grass stay in good shape.
The project includes an assessment of existing trees. We already know that the remaining elm trees on the south lawn are not in good shape. In fact, one of them was recently removed at the recommendation of the city arborist. We plan to plant additional trees and expand the mulched shade areas as part of this project.
Latest from Decaturish
What about artificial turf? The stuff they make now a days looks just like real grass. No chemicals need to be applied, no watering, and no mowing. It would also stand up to whatever festival stress you put on it: people, structures, etc. Pay a little more upfront to save a lot in the future?
And if it works and looks good, I want it for my front yard. I can’t get anything to grow in the shade from that awful tree canopy.
Hostas, Solomon’s Seal, heuchera, ferns, coleus! Who needs plain boring grass?
Only the children, who apparently can’t play in hostas and ferns. Those ingrates!
No fake grass. Please!
+1
It was good enough for the Brady Bunch.
Charlie, I bet you have a flocked Christmas tree every year.
To really improve the square, the city should seriously consider removing the 2 turn around/round about parking lots and turn them into green space.
The businesses would strongly resist any closures of the loops.
Steve – Do you have any evidence to support this? The amount of parking that these loops provide is insignificant in relation to the number of businesses. The aesthetic improvement that this would bring might be welcomed. It would be great to hear from business owners and Decatur residents about this before we start making assumptions. I’m a Decatur resident and I’m in favor of creating more green space in the square by eliminating the loops.
Quotes from business owners from the 2009 Parking Study…
“Our business is on the Square. Parking is a major issue, and the lack of it is a huge detriment to our business.”
“Parking meter rates are too high, signage and publicity about lots is till inadequate; Perception is there is no parking and we lose business because of that.”
“No one knows where it is or it is too far to walk!”
This concern for parking was also reiterated by business owners during the whole 315 West Ponce debate. The Parking Study isn’t online on the city’s website anymore – at least I can’t find it – but here’s my most apt post on the subject…
http://www.decaturmetro.com/2010/01/17/parking-destroyer-of-worlds-or-savior/
Well, I am not a business owner on the square, but I do not agree with those statements which sound like someone just transcribe what someone said (with no facts) to support their opinion. In fact, these are the same statements made by the downtown “business interest” when the first town center plan was under discussion. i strongly favor more green space.
In downtown settings with little off-street parking, retail analysts put the yearly value of each out-front parking space (on-street or in something like the loop) in the six figures as it relates to gross retail sales. The National Main Street Program says that each on-street parking space lost results in a loss of $10,000 in yearly income for the adjacent business.
A compelling draw (such as downtown Decatur has become), multiple modes of access, and ongoing turnover of proximate parking are what make downtowns work.
Remove one or more of the three and somebody starts hurtin’. The good news is that it’s possible to serve multiple interests (residents, business, government, activists, etc.) through balanced and inclusive policy, which is what Decatur continues to do well, IMO.
There goes Scott again…bringing research and data into discussions where they don’t belong.
If my count is correct, there are a total of 51 spaces between those two lots. For the small businesses on the square, that’s a lot of parking spaces to lose. While I would love to see that area as green space, I have to stand on the side of Decatur business here. When one is fruitlessly searching for a space in one of the lots, it always seems like there are too few of them. But there are a lot more than I had thought, and the economic hit would be too much.
Ok, now I have to know how you counted them. In your head? You happened to be walking by as you read the post? There’s an aerial view that allows a count?
Rainman. Yeah, 51 spaces. Definitely 51. Time for Wopner.
Google Maps, satellite view. Zoomed WAY in.
Got same count. Scarey, that kind of detail. Found safety pin I lost the other day.
Don’t forget that some of those spots are handicapped parking. So count of usable spots is probably 47.
There’s a lot of concrete on the current front and back greens. Would reducing the amount of concrete make the greens seem greener? Reduce some of the landscaping challenges? Paths are needed so that folks won’t trample the grass but maybe narrower paths would work just as well?
Token – I don’t think that we’ve heard anything from the businesses, so you can’t say that you side with them. The National Main Street Program study that Scott referred to is simply a generic study and we shouldn’t assume that it is applicable to Decatur.
One question we might ask is would turning those loops in to green space and offering some of that space for outdoor restaurant seating result in the ability to serve more customers (and I know that not every business on the square is a restaurant)?
Also, because these parking spaces are the most visible in downtown and that they are nearly always full helps to generate the perception that Decatur has no parking. Therefore, if these loops were eliminated and adequate signage was places around town indicating where visitors could find parking, that misguided perception could be mitigated.
Interesting premise that a full parking lot creates an impression of no parking more than the absence of a parking lot would. The premise Is plausible but has it been demonstrated to be true?
“I don’t think that we’ve heard anything from the businesses, so you can’t say that you side with them.”
I can say anything I want! So there!
Valid point. I was using Steve’s assertion that the businesses don’t want to lose the parking, not Scott’s comments. He’s very much in tune with the local scene, so I took his comment at face value.
You got me there. You can say anything you want!
I’m sorry that the Parking Study is no longer online, but it very clearly spelled out Decatur businesses’ extreme reluctance to decrease the number of parking spaces or increase the price of parking. I’ve asked the city for a copy, so you won’t have to take me at my word.
Maybe that is why it isn’t online?
What is why?
The analysis provided suggest no financial benefit from increased exterior seating, increased foot traffic and the general hipness from increased green space.
Further any costs (as well as benefits) should be distributed across all of the business on the square. Many currently have no parking directly in front of them. (246, Leons, Square, Mac McG, etc.) At 40 spaces (keep handicap and loading zones) we’re only taking about a couple or so per biz.
So given the growing number of business to amortize the cost across and the unaccounted for benefits it seems like a no brainer. Let’s get with it and get rid of the car parade areas and let the green space grow.
I like to parade, thank you.
I wasn’t arguing the position was correct or incorrect. I was attempting to give Steve’s assertion about business owner’s position credence since Emerson doubted it.
Not only are those the same statements but the first consultants knocked many of them out of the park in their analysis. Result: The Town Center Plan. I don’t see how losing the 12 or so spaces on East Court Square could be a big loss. If that was a serious possibility being debated (turn that into a green space), than it is a proposal that should be studied by residents and businesses owners. Since it is not going to happen, why debate it.
How many spaces are actually in the 2 lots???? (I didn’t read through the link yet so that may have already been answered.)
There’s not a parking problem, it seems to be a perception of not enough parking problem.
I have friends who hate to drive to the square but when I tell them where the parking is, and they get there, mostly all the places are empty, even on the weekend. They never knew it was there.
The absolute first place people go when they drive to the square who aren’t familiar with it, are those 2 tiny lots. There are no places available in them! What a shock!
And reading the comments on here from time to time, even the residents are unsure of the meter situation.
There’s plenty of parking with or without the 2 small lots.
I don’t know what the answer is, but there is no parking shortage, it’s just no one who drives seems to know that. And that’s a problem.
I’m sure there is signage, but maybe it could be improved? The fact that deck is empty on the weekend when it’s free, pretty much says people don’t know it’s there, free, and available.
I consider those spots to be bonus spots that I feel lucky to get, however, we still go around one of them each time we head out to eat. If there’s a spot, great. If not, one of us jumps out and goes and gets in line at our restaurant of choice. Get rid of the spots, eh, whatever, but keep the turnaround for dropping folks off and picking them up.
I do the opposite. The odds of finding a spot are lousy, and you are 100% guaranteed a spot in the county deck, so why bother looking at the surface lots? I just go directly to the county deck.
Rain. Heat. Passengers who are not as mobile as I.
same here. easy walk to just about EVERYTHING in Decatur. Problem is people don’t generally like to walk.
I do like Keith F and hope for a spot and my husband does like DEM and goes right to the deck. I think those reflexes indicate something about us but I don’t know what! Agree that it’s nice to have a loop to drop off the elderly or very young. My Mom really cannot go out to eat anymore unless a restaurant has parking or a drop-off.
I strongly agree. Anyway, all spaces are full most of the time. Would not (should not be) a big loss for the businesses.
And rightly so, I think. We cut off auto access to the Sycamore side of the square when MARTA was built and it took the retail there two decades to really recover — and even now it only really succeeds because of strong, destination operations.
I’m of the mind that we can meet resident expectations for a beautiful and lush square without having to give our business neighbors a swift kick to the groin. I can get nice nature in my yard, but I can’t get the Brick Store or Starbucks (though they are invited to relocate to my house, should the Zoning Task Force allow it).
Okay, okay. Not a big deal. But I do not agree that you need those spaces to get to Starbuck, etc. I do not. (I walk there from my house) And I certainly do not put the gospel truth in a consultant’s parking study. Your statements sound too much like those who said downtown Decatur will never make it without more parking. Other improvements are a big deal, like the horrible shape of the south side lawn and poor health of the existing (remaining) trees, which is being addressed. Hurray.
Your statements sound too much like someone who can walk to downtown. Lucky you.
Obviously we’re all on the side of a better square but I’d suggest efforts to remove the two parking loops are more akin to the we-need-more-parking-or-we’ll-die boosters of the 60s and 70s than what I’m suggesting because they’re the exact same approach but in reverse. Instead of saying parking is what will save the square, they say parking is what’s messing up the square. Either way, both approaches suggest a silver-bullet savior that never actually pans out.
To be clear, I don’t take a hardline position in either direction. Downtown efforts are only successful when they take a balanced approach that acknowledges the complexities of live/work/shop/play environments. Yes, green is good and I, like you, am glad the square is getting a facelift because it adds value — for both residents and businesses. But so do those loops, though admittedly in a less-evident-unless-you-own-a-business-on-the-square kind of way.
I don’t think that anyone is advocating that getting rid of the loops would be a silver-bullet (and Decatur doesn’t need a silver-bullet anyway). Also, I really don’t think this issue is a reverse 1960s planning argument. I’m not arguing for removing parking downtown. I’m suggesting that the parking that protrudes into the square be eliminated. Traditionally, town squares have been public spaces. Those two loops minimize the public space of the square (arguably).
True, most Decatur residents can drive their Reeboks over to their favorite shopping/dining/drinking establishment and Decatur businesses could not subsist without local business. However, we also cannot thrive on resident business alone. Some concession must be made to accommodate people with money who drive to Decatur. Green space is great and makes Decatur a desirable destination, but the local businesses are also a huge draw for other Atlantans. Somewhere between no parking and parking lots on each street corner seems to be ideal. Hey, wait a minute. Isn’t that what we’ve got? Another reason to love this city.
I was here before MARTA, and downtown Decatur was already dead. The MARTA construction was the last nail in that coffin, not the first. Someone on this blog recently mentioned prostitutes then. Ha. had a business downtown from 1973 to 1978, I never saw a prostitute, and I walked everywhere.
Somehow prostitutes in Decatur strikes me as funny. Call girls hopping into minivans. Or jumping on to the running board of a double jogging stroller. Walk and roll (in the hay). Farm to bed.
(I do remember an earlier downtown Decatur with more panhandling and loitering but the prostitutes did not stand out.)
More panhandling than there is now? They must have been lined up two deep, given the scrum I have to work through at the east side MARTA entrance every day.
So how about letting the downtown biz owners form a taxing district to pay for purchasing free parking lots on the edge of the CDB and to fund a circulator shuttle to get people to and from them? Sort of like Disneyland — “Now remember folks, you’re parked in Blue Goofy.” What would be good names for the lots?
Kidding aside, there are several cities that do this. Rochester, NY, which has a nice downtown despite its Rustbelt locale, and Annapolis, MD, are good examples. But you’d have to figure out how to keep it from becoming courthouse parking on weekdays.
Did you bring this up at the roundtables? There was a lot of discussion of shuttles and such and some things made it into the strategic plan.
I think this is a bit of a knee jerk reaction and not necessarily true. I believe there would be a way to close at least one or both of the circles and get the support of Square businesses.
Of course if you just proposed taking away the parking, businesses would be opposed. But parking is probably not the most important thing to businesses on the Square or they wouldn’t be located there. They would be located at Suburban Plaza – plenty of parking there, but no charm.
Lets just propose closing East Court Square for a minute. What if you could provide dozens of new outdoor seating for Starbucks, Sweet Melissa’s, Zucca and the Brick Store that they currently do not have? Seems like this would provide tons of new revenue to the businesses without paying any additional rent. Seems like a winner to me. Of course not all of the businesses are restaurants (Little Shop of Stores, Worthmore, etc), but the additional restaurant traffic could drive more business to their stores and you could compensate all of the businesses by validating parking a a nearby lot or garage. Or the proposed shuttle service proposed might actually have a chance to succeed if we make parking a little more scarce at the core. Of course, I think we should keep a few handicapped spaces and have a turnaround for dropoffs as well.
If this is what the community wants, why not figure out how to do it and try to get the support of the stakeholders instead of just categorically saying that the businesses would be opposed so forget it. Isn’t that the Decatur way.
Keep Brick Store off the Square.
Oh, EmersonJ, that would be so awesome! What a great idea!
Of course our biggest athletic field is artificial turf. Hope the lawn will not be fake.
Back to the subject at hand… Great news that the square is getting lawn treatment. I remember watching concerts on the square on actual grass.
And no I don’t have any data to support the fact that at one time there was grass.
If you go to an older version of Google maps and zoom way in, you’ll be able to count the blades of grass.
Extra points for removing the gazebo.
GREAT news that the lawn and trees are getting attention. Down the road (so to speak), I think it could work to renovate the East Court Square parking area to cut the number of parking spaces in half, preserve the drop-off zone, and both expand green space and outdoor dining space. BUT I would really like to see the all of the sidewalks in town put in decent shape before we embark on that kind of thing. I realize the money probably comes from different slices of the pie, but I also think our pals at City Hall are clever and experienced at figuring out how to do what we decide is important to do. And IMO making the Square even more splendid than it already is should come after making all of our sidewalks navigable.
I had the same thought as EmersonJ–that having those few parking spaces constantly occupied might reinforce the faulty perception that there is no parking downtown. But I still think we should consider getting rid of some of them (in the long run). In any case, add me to the chorus pleading for better signage to the parking we do have. The northeast corner of the courthouse parking deck is only about 500-600 feet from the front door of the the Brick Store. No able-bodied person should have a problem with that, especially after the south lawn gets freshened up.
OK, here’s the 2009 Parking Study. And here’s the summary from the downtown business owners section…
“As the chart below shows, half of the respondents (10 out of 20) believe there is not
enough parking available in downtown Decatur. An almost equal number (9 out of 20)
responded that there is “too much parking in some places, not enough in others.
Half of the respondents report that parking is a significant concern for their business.
On a scale of 1 – 5, 11 out of 22 people considered parking to be a “4” or “5” with 5
representing “the most pressing concern facing my business.”
Asked more specifically when parking is a problem, six (out of 11) respondents
considered parking to be “almost always difficult” or “somewhat difficult most of the
time” for their customers, compared to four people who felt parking is “usually easy –
except during peak hours.”
And remember that many business owners in Decatur have their own dedicated parking. In my experience it’s those who do not who are most concerned about public parking.
Wowzers, a masters paper! That will take some time to digest. Thanks DM!
I knew the author while she was in graduate school. In fact she worked at my company for a while. One of the most intelligent students I’ve ever met enrolled in Georgia Tech’s City & Regional Planning program, and I’ve met a bunch. I’d be careful before doubting her methodology or findings. She’s one sharp planner.
Hmm, I never said anything about “doubting her methodology or findings” and I sure hope that I didn’t give that impression.
Ok, so there’s less grass. That’s because of, one, the heavy use which is a good thing for business and community and, two, drought and heat. I don’t see a problem. My kids love playing in the dirt anyway. As for parking, what’s the problem again? I rarely have difficulty parking and if I gotta park and walk two blocks with a cooler every once in a while, that’s fine and hardly inconvenient. And it’s not like decatur is going to double in population any time soon. Change will come, so be it. But there are no problems here. Just opinions.
Look, I’m all for increased pedestrian-friendly greenspace in Decatur, but this is a horrible idea. We don’t live in New England, where it rains all the time. We live in a region that is periodically gripped by serious droughts, which will likely intensify with climate change. Why in the name of Reason would we want to divert that much water to irrigating and chemically juicing a landscape that is not suited to this area??
It would be so much better to plant drought-tolerant ground cover that kids can run on, without being so irresponsible with tax dollars and critical resources.
“It would be so much better to plant drought-tolerant ground cover that kids can run on, without being so irresponsible with tax dollars and critical resources.”
That’s an interesting idea. Did you have something in mind? I was trying to think of all the things that could be planted, low maintenance, and could be played on but am drawing a blank.
If it conserves all resources, and can live even in the heat with minimal water, it’s probably worth at least investigating.
I think we should let sleeping dogs lie. A true square would have four streets feeding into the square. That was destroyed that with the MARTA station. I wish the station could have built without destroying the square. I don’t know the reasons why Sycamore had to be eliminated but my only guess is it was cheaper than installing the station further underground. What’s done is done, though, and I don’t think we should further mess with the situation. There’s plenty of public space there without tearing up the parking. Plus, the parking areas also make room to park trucks and have space for more booths during festivals. Any grass planted there would get abused every time there was a festival downtown. We’ve already improved the area a great deal by renovating the MARTA station. I say improve the grass and let the parking be.
In fact the original plan was for the MARTA to be deeper, but they ran into unexpected geological problems. Don’t know if this would have saved Sycamore, but that was the plan.
I was just in downtown Charlottesville a couple of days ago and it was clear how much room for improvement there is for Decatur’s Square. C’ville is much bigger, but there’s much to learn.
it was clear that, despite some street parking, default parking is in well designated parking decks. Decatur is the opposite (people think street parking first and get frustrated … decks are poorly designated) and that’s fixable.
The pedestrian shopping/dining area was green and shady, with lots of dining out in the open, adding to the feel that people were out and about. From a previous DM post on allowing dining tables up by the fountain, it sounds like we’re moving the right direction.
Putting these two together, it seems to me that turning the two loop parking areas into green/dining space would be a no-brainer. More serving space for restaurants, more attractive to shoppers/diners. But it would require a concerted effort to promote deck parking — of which we have plenty.
C’vill also has some nice draws for kids, including some public installations — a little carousel and two big chalkboard/sculture things. Decatur is a big family town. How to capitalize on that to boost the Square on a daily basis?
Glad to see beginning to get the Square getting the attention it deserves.
Two questions: have you seen the Parking Lot movie? (based in C’ville)
Also do you have any pictures? I’m thinking another good regular post feature would be pics of elements of other cities that Decatur residents found desirable. Would be different enough from EOTS and get people thinking about a variety of ways to think outside the DEC bubble.
Great idea. Text descriptions often sound like advocacy but pictures may be truly convincing. One element that’s hard to do in 3D though is humidity. Everything out West as the advantage of low humidity. Easy to have an outdoor focus when mosquitoes and steam are not a feature of the ambience. Even the Northwest has low humidity in between its rainy or snowy periods.
You’re right that the C’ville downtown mall is successful and really enjoyable to be in, Judd, but I’d suggest caution in assuming its lessons are directly transferable to Decatur. Enough time has passed since the first wave of pedestrian malls were installed around the country. Many have failed or have gone through multiple efforts at life support before being restored to their previous function. But some have not and have even thrived so, with the wider statistical sample to study, people have been able to gauge the conditions under which success is more likely.
As it turns out, the two most important conditions for success are a) a significant, pedestrian-oriented population already in close proximity; and b) sizable existing tourist traffic occurring for reasons unrelated to the pedestrian mall. C’ville, as you know, has both of these in spades. UVA’s population, and students are about as pedestrian oriented as you can get, is around 25,000, with a continual influx of new kids that haven’t yet grown tired of the downtown experience. Add to that the tourist traffic generated by Monticello and related activities and you’re talking about not just a ton of people but a ton of people looking for a place to hang out.
So, again, context is the key. I thought the idea of adding dining to the Blount Plaza around the fountain was a great one that I hope comes to pass. There’s already a ton of public space up there that’s ripe for better activities and use, such as the family-focused stuff you mention. But I remain unconvinced about taking out the parking courts. If you can’t offer the retailers the prospect of large pedestrian and tourist populations to compensate, taking their convenience parking out is a nail in the coffin. At least that’s my perspective, for whatever *that’s* worth.