Decatur Proactive Policing Continues
Decatur Metro | May 10, 2011You may recall my car’s brush with the law almost two years ago. (Geez, has it really been that long?)
Well Nellie’s got a new story to report.
A friend of mine on Forkner found a blue sticker on her car steering wheel left by the police warning her the doors to the car were unlocked. The car was parked in her driveway at the time. Do you know anything about this program? It seemed rather bizarre the police could enter her car on her property without her permission or a warrant! I figure you might have gotten some sort of notice or release about this if it’s legit…
It happened to me two years ago, so yes, this is a legit program run by the Decatur PD. However, my car was parked in the street when I received my warning from DPD and they left the ticket on my windshield, not inside my car. (They even came back a week or so later and noted that my car doors were now locked)
I’ll check with the police and ask about standard protocols for this program.
They would need a warrant (or probable cause) to search the car, but I doubt they need that to simply leave a “warning” on your steering wheel. That said, it is indeed odd that they’d enter private property to leave such a note. I think it is something they really shouldn’t be doing, warrant or no warrant.
I find it hard to believe they would enter a car without a warrant or permission (not that I’m doubting the account). Police or not, they are committing a crime.
Did they lock the car afterward? It would be strange to leave an obvious indicator (even on the windshield) that screams… “Hey! This car is unlocked!! C’mon in!” to any savvy thief out there…
I would rather have the police enter my car “without permission” than to have a thief enter my car and steal the contents, or even the whole car. Think you’re upset with the police? How about being upset when you are burglarized? I’ll bet that, if that happened, you would complain about the lack of police protection.
So if the front door to your house was unlocked, it’d be ok for them to walk in and leave a note on your fridge?
You know, I wouldn’t have a problem with that, for similar reasons.
Wow. Just wow.
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”- Ben Franklin
That must be the single, saddest thing I’ve heard in quite awhile.
In our house, between the old photos, old sports schedules, school reminders, birthday invitations, cheap souvenir magnets, and what not, we’d never notice a warning on our refrigerator!
As long as they don’t look under the beds at the dust and junk, in my kids’s closets, or through my embarrassing inbox pile, they are welcome to come on in our house and warn us of a threat. Mind you, I’m not in any way approving an abrogation of our nation’s inalienable rights be abrogated or a breaching of legal protections against improper search and arrest of citizens. I’m just saying that I give the Decatur PD specifically permission to come on into our particular home and property and let us know that we are doing something risky. Ringing the doorbell first would be nice. But if the TV volume is on too loud and the kids left the door unlocked, come on in Decatur PD if you see an imminent threat. Maybe there’s a sticker for that, like the one that says there’s a pet inside in case of fire?
Not dismissing the point of your question, but it just made me laugh. I once lived in a small town where a friend of mine was a police officer. Sometimes during his 12-hour shift he’d stop by our house- my roommate and I were really bad about leaving the doors unlocked when we weren’t home – make himself a sandwhich, drink our milk, eat our chips, etc. – and then leave a note on the refrigerator door saying we needed to lock our doors. He also lectured us about it repeatedly. But in four years, he was the only intruder we were aware of. I think a police officer stationed pretty much in our house was a big deterent to criminals!
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I don’t see the harm in letting people know how the program works and what it’s limitations are. It’s obvious that it freaks some people out, so why not get the info out there?
Getting the info out would also entail asking permission; otherwise it’s illegal.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
- U.S. Constitution Amendment 4
Anything they find in the cars (drugs, weapons, paraphernalia) is inadmissible in court, as the entering of a privately owned vehicle without a warrant or permission is illegal. Decatur could have a federal lawsuit against them if they keep this crap up.
Thread highjack but sorta police related…
What was the cause of all the sirens about 11:45 last night heading down North Decatur Road towards Emory? Police cars, ambulances, fire trucks- the whole shebang. But nothing in the news today.
Don’t know if you’re still reading, AMB. It was a car accident on North Decatur. Guy in a Jeep Cherokee speeding eastbound down the hill away from the intersection at Clairmont, hit a telephone pole just before the light at Superior, flipped the vehicle and was ejected.
Our house is about two doors down from where the jeep ended up. Driver was alive and conscious when he was put in the ambulance, according to my husband.
We’ve been trying to find out whether he made it through, but haven’t seen any more information.
There’s was an extremely pro-active officer on Sycamore a couple of months back. He was looking in people’s back yards and checking people’s cars etc. When confronted he said he was looking for easy targets for theft. The problem is he kept coming back to the same neighbor’s house over and over for some reason. It seemed like he was being targeted. I’m pretty sure some of the neighbors complained because he stopped coming out as much.
I’m pretty sure my dog scared the crap out of him the first time he tried that at my house…
I’m really not sure how I feel about police randomly walking through people’s yards…
Without the proper warrants or reasonable suspicion/probable cause to believe a crime has been/is being committed, police may not enter your vehicle or your home without your permission (at least, under prevailing 4th Amendment standards– the current US Supreme Court is steadily eroding those standards, though, so that could change). Whether an unlocked vehicle in a private driveway, without anything more, is sufficient to provide that reasonable suspicion/probable cause is an interesting question, and one that I’d be inclined to answer “no”– even if it’s ostensibly to prevent a crime. Even though I might understand, in theory, why the police would enter my car to place waht amounts to a “be careful” sticker on my steering wheel, I would definitely not be comfortable with it (and I have absolutely nothing to hide). But more than that, I don’t understand why people leave their car doors unlocked nowadays, because even very safe neighborhoods aren’t immune from petty crime.
With a moniker like “cubalibre” , I have to assume that either you or your family left the clutches of a communist state where the people have no liberties. I am a first generation American and the daughter of Cuban immigrants. It’s people like us who have a duty to remind our fellow Americans that it is not ok for the police to just enter your car when its parked in your driveway to put stickers on it. I don’t care if its for my own safety. I know better than the govt nine times out of town on how to protect my own property and liberty. I don’t need their reminders.
Then presumably you won’t be receiving any stickers.
You’re right about one-half my parentage (my dad was Cuban, and escaped a year or so after Castro came to power)– but I have to confess that my moniker isn’t derived from something so honorable as a desire to see a Free Cuba (even though I sincerely do). It’s a play on my ethnic heritage & one of my favorite drinks…*sigh* Sorry! (But I do agree with everything you said…)
Ha ha. I guess I should change mine to “Mojito”. I think a drink is a perfectly good reason to choose a moniker.
Whether an unlocked vehicle in a private driveway, without anything more, is sufficient to provide that reasonable suspicion/probable cause is an interesting question
__________________
Interesting in what sense? This strikes me as a complete slam-dunk. Parking a car in your driveway and not locking the door is not probable cause, period. How could it be otherwise?
Interesting in that if the police argued that an unlocked door in a car at night could reasonably lead to a potential crime, would a court agree? I already said my answer would be no– but you might be surprised at the intrusions courts have allowed in this vein (see my allusion to the erosion of 4th Amendment protections vis-a-vis the police & “public safety”). You’d think it would be a “slam dunk”, but I’ve seen too many stupid decisions by Superior Court judges to believe otherwise.
Gotcha. I don’t doubt for a second that both state and federal courts have been way too accomodating to the police on stuff like this.
A warrant is not necessary to put something in your car, just as a warrant is not necessary to enter your car if the police stop you. If your car is in your garage, that’s another matter; you can be arrested without a warrant if the officer stays in your doorway, but if s/he enters your house, an arrest warrant is needed.
A lot of times, police are acting on tips or suspicions that are not obvious to us and should NOT be made obvious to us, for various reasons. But if a cop is doing something that creeps anyone out–it’s right to report it. I’ve found that people call the police way less than they should. Unless you’re a nutjob who calls them three times a day about the raccoons raiding your garbage cans, you are not bothering them by calling them about suspicious people, drunks peeing in an alley, people fighting, or an officer who seems to be doing something he shouldn’t–you’re helping them.
“just as a warrant is not necessary to enter your car if the police stop you”
Oh HELLS NO! I really don’t mean to pick on you specifically, Al, but it amazes me how many people don’t know what rights they have during police encounters. If a cop stops you in your car, he may not need a warrant, but if he doesn’t have one he has absolutely no right to “enter” or “search” it unless he has probable cause to arrest you or sees illegal activity or contraband in plain view.
If the cop just has a hunch that there’s something illegal in the car and wants to search it, the only way he can do that is by getting your consent. Of course, they’ll never say “Hey man, I’ve got a hunch that you’ve got some drugs or guns in your car so I’d like for you to allow me to search it even though you have a rock solid constitutional right to tell me to go to hell.” Instead, they’ll say “You don’t mind if I just take a look in here, do you?” The correct answer is “Hell yes I do mind”
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Thanks for the corroboration of my first statement, J_T– I thought you were a criminal (defense), but couldn’t be sure, so didn’t give you the shout-out I’d started to when I first posted…
Keith: You’re Welcome (x3)
Cuba: I’d say you are welcome as well, but I’m still debating the propriety of you parenthesization
um, “your parenthesization”. Anyways, wouldn’t “Propriety of Parenthesization” make for a great band name? Or at least a Jonathan Franzen novel…
Hmmm…the latter, maybe, but not the former. It’d be too hard to say whilst copping a buzz…
D’OH! I meant to type “lawyer” after that parentheses…sheesh. Can’t type as fast as I think…sorry!
It’s all good. I knew what you meant. Just figured it was a problem of your Cuban accent…or the rums and coke!
I always lock one of my cars although I never leave anything in it to steal. However I never lock the rag top because what’s the point?
If somebody wants to steal from your car, they will probably break a window which might be more expensive than anything stolen.
It’s a conundrum.
From time to time, our neighborhood (Westchester) experiences a rash of auto and, to a far lesser degree, home break-ins. Some folks left their cars unlocked to avoid smashed windows, which occurred even when no valuables were present.
2 years ago they came up our hilly driveway to our car parked up beside our house far off the street – and left us that “sticker” about the doors not being locked…
What sort of amazes me is the unquestioning belief in police benevolence. Anyone else hear about the story involving the gps company and speed traps?
This is a completely unacceptable trespass on private property. The police have NO right to do this, even in the guise of a neighborhood watch.
I don’t care if you wear a police uniform and carry a gun. Stay off my property unless you are either invited or you witness a crime in progress. Unlocked doors do not constitute anything resembling a crime.
I respect our police force and the men and women who serve on it, but this is WAY over the line.
Absostayawayfrommycarlutely.
Oh, and the worst part is, if this happened to me, to whom would I complain? The police? I don’t think so. I can just imagine the conversation:
Token: Mr. Police Chief, one of your officers trespassed on my property to enter my car and warn me about unlocked doors.
Mr. Police Chief: We’re doing this as an awareness program to reduce crime.
Token: You’re trespassing, and I would ask that you not do this anymore.
Mr. PC: OK, I understand. We will no longer do it.
Three months later:
Mr. PC: Token’s house is being robbed. Let’s teach him a lesson about crime prevention and delay our response.
Would this happen? Probably not. But then again, police are just as human as the rest of us, so you never know. Yeah, I’m paranoid and distrustful. And I’m perfectly comfortable with it, since being that way has saved my a$$ more than once.
Having said that, I’m now worried someone will connect my nom de guerre with my true identity, and make me regret saying all this.
So you will say what you want as long as you can hide behind a screen name?
Yes, indeed. When it comes to government, I keep a low profile, including hiding behind a screen name. Told you I didn’t trust anyone, and I have no problem with what you probably consider cowardice.
“I fought the law, and the law won.”
Agreed. The only way a cop can tell if car doors are locked or unlocked is if they are going around grabbing door handles. That’s just absurd.
I have a similar question related to the pool cleaning service truck that a neighbor told me is always parked in my driveway while I am at work. We don’t even have a pool! This is an outrage!
I with Decatur Repub. on this. I recall Con Law (vaguely) from law school, and it seems to me that they need probable cause to enter even an unlocked vehicle or home. However, I also recall that the only consequence of their unconstitutional entry is that any evidence gathered as a result is inadmissible.
Lawyer types with a better memory than me … please correct me as necessary.
I think that’s right — evidence obtained in an illegal search is not admissible. So if they open your car for no reason and then happen to see your drug stash, you can’t be convicted on that basis. As a matter of basic property rights, though, they may well be trespassing by opening your car without probable cause. But aside from a civil suit or complaining to HQ, you probably have no real remedy.
On the topic of police…..
Does anyone know why there have been several DeKalb police cars at the intersection of Ponce and South Ponce, near the Frazier Center, the last few mornings? They seem to be stopping cars from turning left onto South Ponce. I thought it might be to keep cars from using South Ponce as a cut through to Clifton, but that seems like a lot of resources used for residents of one street…
Isn’t that a No Left Turn from westbound Ponce?
Perhaps, I haven’t noticed one but I’ll look closer tomorrow.
A friend of mine on Adair had her car broken into twice – that’s two repair bills and two inconveniences too many. Often, my car is unlocked with no valuables in it.
I do have another odd police story: a couple of years ago, around 3am an officer rang the bell which scared the hell out of me. I live in a bungalow which offers no privacy at the front door. Dogs barking, I approached cautiously and never opened the door. We talked through a closed door, using antique mail slot … He had found a check I had written earlier in the day (day before) for a kid selling cookie dough. Evidently, the kid dropped my check only to have the officer find it in the street hours later. He asked if everything was ok, and I said yes. He slid my check back to me. Still, I was confused and scared though pleased to think the po-po was looking out for me.
That’s nice of the officer to return your check, but I can’t think of any reason why he would need to come to your door at 3 am.
Can’t think of a reason? I can. He works the overnight shift and that’s when he found the check and had time to do it. Was it a great idea to do it then, maybe not. But someone else who found her check could have bleached the amount, written in a larger amount, and cashed it.
Still seems pretty stupid to me.
He could always take it to the police station and have them call you at a respectable hour.
Yes, and the fact the he did not is a comment on the strength of his decision making. I want better decisions from my police, personally.
What kind of sticker did the police leave on the steering wheels of those cars parked on the sidewalk?
I never lock my car. There is absolutely nothing in it except jumper cables, and I don’t want to deal with smashed windows should a thief come a’callin’. This whole thing sounds outrageous to me.
I used to do this as well. For the longest I drove a car that having the window replaced if smashed would have cost more than the car was worth. (I only paid $500 for it) Let the thief look in and see there’s nothing of value and move along. It didn’t even have a backseat or a radio in it. Miss that little car, but not the carbon monoxide issue that kept me from ever having the windows completely rolled up.
whine, whine, whine…..the police are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. You want protection, yet, you complain about them being proactive in trying to prevent a crime. The side of the police car says “partners for a safer community.” Do you want a safe community, or a reason to invite the thugs out there to trash not only your car, but anything else you have. You say you “never see the police” but they are trying to protect your property. So which way do you want it? Let the thugs have their way with the residents of the city, or give you a gentle reminder that you are inviting these same thugs the ability to commit the crime? Save me from all of this other crap. Maybe you ought to do one of the citizen programs and ride with the police to see what actually goes on. It’s truly an eye opener. Can I have some cheese with that whine?
+1
Nothing to do here but shake my head and sigh.
-1
Why should my liberties be infringed because other people commit crimes? That is absurd.
Dude, you have liberties!? Where’d you get them? Locally sourced or imported? and, are they gender specific or heteronormative?
I think they are on sale at the Wal Marts
You and Steve are more than welcome to encourage the police to enter your property uninvited and open your car doors (or house doors, as Steve says above). Leave me out of your desire to have your rights trampled by an over-reaching governmental “authority.”
Does that make me a whiner? If you want; I’ve been called worse. But I’m a whiner who understands the difference between protecting a community and overstepping boundaries. And I draw a very clear line between the two.
P.S. I have done a ride-along with a Palm Beach County Sheriff’s officer, in a MUCH worse place than Decatur. And I still don’t see ANY need for this type of action.
P.P.S. I hate cheese, so I don’t want any with my whine.
DTR, we are on the same side here. I can’t believe anyone is okay with having a police officer enter their property without proper authority.
There is a world of difference between allowing police to fiddle with your door handles and “letting thugs have their way.”
What everybody else said. Expecting to have effective policing and not having one’s constitutional rights infringed upon aren’t mutually exclusive, you know. The day you allow the police liberties that they’re not entitled to is the day you open the door to the abuse of those liberties– for you and everybody else. No thanks!
“The day you allow the police liberties that they’re not entitled to is the day you open the door to the abuse of those liberties”
_________________________________________________________
And if you doubt that, ask Kathryn Johnston’s family…..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting
D@mn skippy! Ask Abner Louima that as well (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/the-abner-louima-case-10-years-later/), or Amadou Diallo (http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/d/amadou_diallo/index.html). I’m no anti-police bleeding heart, but I’m not going to further entrust the authorities to always exercise good judgment or discretion with the enormous power they already have.
This coming from an attorney.
Hmmm.. this person must be a cop.
++1
Wow. I’ve always had good experiences with Decatur PD (pretty much the exact opposite of my dealings with Dekalb/Atlanta/New Orleans/most other police departments I’ve dealt with), but I’d be livid if an officer came onto my property and opened my car.
If he did find “something” in my car, and arrested me, after lots of time, aggravation, and attorney fees, I’d get the case thrown out on for the illegal search, but I shouldn’t ever be put in that situation.
Also, having owned convertibles for many years, I rarely lock my car. It just takes paying for one $1000 top that some idiot cuts with a knife to get into your car to learn that lesson.
Decatur PD. I appreciate your eagerness to do the right thing and make our community better – this just isn’t it. Not by a long shot.
People seem very willing these days to give up their rights, because the government tells them it’s for their own good. Not only in this particular situation, but overall, if you give the government an inch, they’ll take a mile.
If you don’t care that government is trampling on your guaranteed rights, that’s your business, but some of us still do.
amen.
WORD.
No way Jose.
Seems to me the whiners are the ones who expect to live in an urban environment and never experience crime, so they are fine with police breaking the law in the name of safety. Some people are taking the Mayberry comparison way too literally.
So an officer sees your dome light on in the early morning hours and checks to see if you have been a victim of a crime. The car doors are unlocked. Maybe they wake you up at 3AM or they lock your doors and do you a favor. So you can get up and go to work in your car that was not stolen. So, what crime did the officer commit? Maybe it would help everyone here to look into what constitutes a search and what elements and or facts are needed to turn a good deed into a crime…..Sounds like a good deed is being over looked to justify a noneventful matter.
I’m curious- DM would you follow up with the Police Chief and get an official stance on this program?
More importantly, can you follow up with the Chief to make sure he doesn’t know the true identities of Cuba, DTR, Rebeccab, Josh, Jeff, nellie, Keith F and myself? I think we are really going to start worrying about Big Brother if any of us gets one of those stickers tonight!
Just kidding…sorta…
Did you miss the later post with Deputy Chief Lee’s response?
The following is a synopsis of the incident which led to the current discussion:
On Tuesday morning at approximately 4:30 am, a Decatur Police Officer was driving on Forkner Drive when he saw a vehicle parked in a driveway with the interior light on. The officer did not observe anyone inside the vehicle, so he stopped to investigate. Upon approaching the car he found the door unlocked, but did not see any evidence of damage. The officer opened the door, turned the light off and locked the car. He placed one of the safety check notices in the car, so that the owner would know he had been there.
At no time did the officer search the car or seize anything. It is my determination the officer acted in a responsible and correct manner
Okay, so the officer observed something odd, investigated, corrected the situation and left a courtesy notice? That’s the facts of the matter? Perhaps this comment thread suffers from a case of “be outraged first, find out what’s going on second.”
Count me in your corner, DC Lee. Apparently, news of Decatur’s jackbooted thugs has been greatly exaggerated. I appreciate the attention to detail, and the apparent lack of threat to my civil liberties.
Deputy Chief Lee, thank you for providing the recap. And big thanks to all of the officers who patrol our streets.
So much for Mayberry. This is the very same Police Dept. that most of us appreciate and brag about to everybody we know! How is it that so many folks jumped to judge the situation so harshly? When has our Police Dept. ever failed to give an explanation when asked? Sure hope folks are doing a whole lot of conscience searching tonight.
Thanks for providing the details and explanation. We appreciate all the hard work from you and your department!
“Sure hope folks are doing a whole lot of conscience searching tonight.”
For what? Reacting to an account that turned out to be incomplete, or reacting to those who apparently have no problem with police checking for locked doors and entering vehicles? I think the latter was what stirred up many of the people to comment. The stated willingness of some to allow the police more power than the law allows is what I will be worrying over, if anything.
Amen, Brian. I am inquiring with other party about the light being left on.
I am still not sure how a light on in a car parked in a private constitutes the right of the police to walk up her driveway, open the door and enter the vehicle. Why didn’t the officer leave a note about his courteousness so the resident would not be alarmed? She was really upset this morning and she has every right to be.
Like my own situation, the officer could have rung the bell — just sayin’ — not that I think that is the best solution either. Imagine being awakened out of a sleep to find an officer at your door in the middle of the night to tell you the interior light of your car is lit…
Grateful for patrolling police but some things just don’t seem kosher.
Sad part of it all is that both of these cops thought they were helping but so many of us in the last four decades have been scarred by bad cops and bad courts and bad laws.
Definitely a fine line. As for my experience, my preference is to be a lil’ unnerved as opposed to what if I REALLY needed assistance
For what? From DM’s post: “I’ll check with the police and ask about standard protocols for this program.” But nooooo. Why should folks wait for a response?
Brianc- As far as you worrying over folks being willing to give the police more power– maybe it’s simply a matter of some folks having more faith in the City of Decatur Police Dept than you do. They may know and respect many of our hardworking officers. Steve gave his take– which I absolutely agree with– and folks felt compelled to share their liberties views and judge this officer guilty of violating them. I’m surprised that sits well with you.
Nelliebelle- While you’re inquiring, please ask your friend why she didn’t just call the Police Dept and ask what the dang deal was. Then she’d have had peace of mind right off instead of learning the explanation by way of all this ridiculousness. (It’d still be nice of her to call and thank the officer for sparing her from a dead car battery.)
“please ask your friend why she didn’t just call the Police Dept and ask what the dang deal was”
Good question.
Boy, ya’ll STILL don’t get it. An interior light on an unoccupied car at 4:30 in the morning is considered a suspicious matter that provokes a police response. Deputy Chief Lee explained EXACTLY what happened, and you STILL don’t get it. This is called pro-active policing. Would you rather they be at the Waffle House drinking coffee instead of protecting your neighborhoods from the likes of the thugs that live in Kirkwood and East Atlanta? I think not, however, it appears that all you are worried about are your rights being violated. What if, by that same officer , checking that light, finds one of these thugs on your front door step trying to enter your house? I believe that your damn tune would change then. It’s all perception. If you don’t like it, then move out to South DeKalb County, or to Atlanta, or anywhere else and see if you get that kind of attention. You will be lucky to even see a police officer in 6 months if you call then for anything. By that time, everything you own will be in a pawn shop. Forget the cheeze, just get me a 6 pack of Budweiser so I can drown these comments, because they belong in the South River with all the other crap…..
+T
+1 again
“Would you rather they be at the Waffle House drinking coffee instead of protecting your neighborhoods from the likes of the thugs that live in Kirkwood and East Atlanta? ” This is straight up rude.
I would use a stronger word then rude.
“it appears that all you are worried about are your rights being violated.”
When the government is groping your genitals and groping and removing small children’s clothing, and you’re not worried about your Constitutional rights in the least, something is terribly wrong.
“I believe that your damn tune would change…If you don’t like it, then move”
Does that tude normally work for you?
“I believe that your damn tune would change…If you don’t like it, then move”
Inevitably the go-to response of the philistine.
Rebeccab….this isn’t the TSA, this is the REAL police trying to protect you…..BIG difference. And yes, that DOES work for me. I would love to see your response if the scenario I described above happened to you. You probably would not even speak up because of the embarressment it would cause.
Tell you what….let’s let DeKalb come in here and police the area for a while. You will see a whole different side of policing than you see from our fine officers.
Forget the Budweiser, bring on the Jack Daniels……jeeezzz……
“You probably would not even speak up because of the embarressment it would cause.”
Oooohhhh, you really told me, huh? Not even half way, not even a nice try fellow. How would it cause me personal embarrassment that someone would be burgled? It would evoke sympathy, though it sounds as though the mere thought of it makes you giddy and gleeful. How sad.
I respect the police and what they do. That doesn’t lessen the respect I have for the guaranteed rights of individuals in this country. Rights of all types didn’t get eroded by people taking them in a massive grab all at once. It happens one small piece at a time, in hopes that no one will notice. It doesn’t like that was the attempt in this individual case.
But anytime we’re headed down that path with our rights (yes, they are yours too), it needs to be scrutinized, not welcomed with open arms just because someone says “hey buddy, it’s for your own good, trust me on this one”
In reference to your article below, everyone who knows how to use a firearm and feels comfortable with one in their home, should have one. The saying is true. When seconds count, police are only minutes away. (Except of course in your world, where they’re standing on your porch waiting for the “gotcha” moment.)
Here you go…..
Homeowner shoots burglar in Gwinnett
For the AJC
Gwinnett County police investigators are en route to a house near Duluth, where a homeowner reportedly shot a burglar.
.Police were dispatched to the 2800 block of E. Mount Tabor Circle after a report of a burglary in progress and discovered that the homeowner had shot a burglar, Cpl. Edwin Ritter said. Further details were not immediately available.
Return to ajc.com for updates.
Now……put that same situation in Decatur……
Put that same situation in Decatur? Sure, it might go like this. It’s 1 a.m. and I’m trying to sleep when I’m awakened by my dog growling at the window. I look out and see my interior car lights on and someone just inside thew driver’s side door. So I grab my gun, run out and pistol whip the thieving scumbag. As I’m about to hit him again, I realize it’s one of Decatur’s finest. NOW, who’s going to jail????
Good point. And you probably would not have to go that far: draw your gun on an officer and you are probably going to jail or at least being detained.
So, you wouldn’t notice the big white police car out front?
And, pointing a firearm at an officer is bad karma anyway, because the first thing they’ll do is tell you to drop it. If you do, the next thing you’ll be told is to assume a face down prone position. If you don’t, you’ll be fired on.
Keep in mind that the officer doesn’t know who you are. For all they know, you’re the perp who was just now going through the car and has now entered the house.
“it’s simply a matter of some folks having more faith in the City of Decatur Police Dept than you do.”
No, it’s not, and that is a naive viewpoint. It’s a matter of law: entering vehicles, even ones with the lights left on (and how readily YOU are to accept that is what actually happened because of course the police never lie), is illegal.
Brianc- You left off the “maybe.” It’s there because I can only account for me. Yes, I take Deputy Chief Lee, and (by extension) the officer at their word on what happened in this specific case. I also said “They may know and respect some of our hardworking officers.” For me, based on my interactions with our officers and Deputy Chief Lee, I’m convinced that they’re sincerely interested in helping us to proactively prevent crime.
Should the Police Dept. reassess & tweak the safety check program? Probably so. A public awareness campaign would be a good thing. It’d also be good for folks to appreciate the Dept’s stellar reputation for honest policing and let them provide a statement before going off on them next time. Pretty demoralizing for them to work so hard on our behalf, then read all this.
Decatur Heights (where this happened) has had several car enterings- and two car thefts- in recent months. Having officers patrolling our neighborhood to help thwart problems and taking action when they see something’s amiss is very welcome by me.
“Having officers patrolling our neighborhood to help thwart problems and taking action when they see something’s amiss is very welcome by me.”
I’m all for patrols, would like to see more in fact. But the program being discussed—checking car doors to see if they are locked—makes no sense, is questionable from a legal standpoint, and is a waste of time that could be spent patrolling.
I think a public awareness campaign is a great idea. The DPD can host a big meeting and talk about their program, give people tips on preventing crimes, and at the end they’ll have a sign up list for consent to search homes and cars that belong to Decatur residents. Folks like Steve and Whiner can just hand over their liberties on a plate in exchange for a false sense of safety. And the police don’t have to worry about a lawsuit since they have their consent. Everyone will be happy.
Depending on the details of the situation, I may or may not be borthered by a cop coming onto my property if my interior car light was on in the middle of the night. However, some people commenting here were/are all for cops checking their doors as a matter of course BEFORE that detail was known. Some even went to far as to make the suggestion that unlocked doors = thugs taking over. I don’t need to check my conscience to know how patently absurd both of those things are.
I only know that when I wake up to a dead battery my normal reaction is a prayer of thanks that my constitutional rights are safe.
“I only know that when I wake up to a dead battery my normal reaction is a prayer of thanks that my constitutional rights are safe.”
My normal reaction is to grab my jumper cables or call AAA, not wonder why the police were not there to save me from a dead battery.
Maybe I see the car, maybe I don’t. The point is Im the one in trouble for drawing a gun because someone is on my property.. for no good reason.
Sounds to me like we’re at an impasse. Some of us are comfortable with the police doing what they did, and some of as aren’t. Getting snippy with each other will not change those opinions, and I hate to see this conversation devolve into something one would see in an ajc.com blog.
I believe all of us appreciate Deputy Chief Lee’s post, and are also very satisfied with the high quality of our police force. They have a sometimes thankless job, and I am grateful for their dedication and service.
So let’s leave it here and move on. I have some Democrats to offend in other posts.
Sigh, I don’t like it when I let others take me to that place. I’ll never be perfect, what can I say?
About your last line…
It’s time Americans woke up and realized that both parties are screwing them. It’s just a matter of trying to figure out who is screwing you less.
Sorry, Rebecca. I’ve learned that some arguments go way longer than necessary, and intractability rules the day. I believe wholeheartedly in what I have said on this post, and would not take it back. Those who disagree with me feel the same way. So we weren’t getting anywhere. But if you want to continue the discussion, I can’t stop you.
And I couldn’t agree with you more about both parties screwing us. Most times, I can’t tell the difference between the corrupt idiots and morons who think they represent us, regardless of party.
And I’m thinking of changing my name. Remaining a member of the Republican party is becoming more unpalatable every day. Sorry, Nellie, I can’t join your side either.
You’re right on all points. But what shall you change your name to? “Poster formerly known as Decatur’s Token Republican” could work, but a bit long.
Hating on politicians is so easy. Sure, if we all had our way, without compromise the world would be a better place. SURE. As Madison said,
“If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.
This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public. We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to divide and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the other — that the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public rights. These inventions of prudence cannot be less requisite in the distribution of the supreme powers of the State.”
Feeling like you’re “getting screwed” is actually just a byproduct of how the system works. And up until now, it’s been a pretty successful system. Whether it can “endure short-term pain for long-term gain” with this debt/environmental program remains to be seen, but that’s not all that’s contributing to this current feeling. I’m pretty sure Americans have felt like they’ve been “getting screwed” since 1787.
Word, Word, and Word, Token. I stand by everything I said, even though Chief Lee’s explanation does put things into more perspective. We civil libertarians weren’t overreacting, it’s just that too many people can’t appreciate that proactive policing needn’t tread into unconstitutionality (so those who feel they have the moral high ground to scold us should save their breath– we know where you stand, you know where we stand, and we just don’t agree). In this particular situation, the police were able to offer a reasonable explanation for what happened. That doesn’t equate into a blanket justification for this kind of patrolling. Standing up for what we believe isn’t being unsupportive of the DPD and the overall job they do, but that doesn’t mean that we should automatically give them a pass on things that raise questions. That’s the duty of the citizenry, and I’m surprised that so many posters on this thread, who’re ordinarily quick to defend civil liberties, are taking the opposite stance.
But hey, Token– come on over to the Post-Modern Independents. The water’s fine!
Just to be clear: I am 100% on the side of civil liberties first.
But I want a sticker for my house (and my house only) that gives the Decatur Police (and them only) permission to come on our property and warn us of imminent danger. I prefer that they ring the doorbell but if the family is stupid enough to leave the door open and our unlocked car’s battery is going dead and a wheel is going flat and there’s a swastika spray painted on the trunk, come on in politely and warn us. If our trust is ever violated, off comes the sticker.
So when they knock on your door at 4:30 AM, we don’t want to hear about it.
Agree. Wonder if THAT would get the kids up for school in time….:)
Something like this?: http://www.signaramaskokie.com/category/5248
Just be DTR, like BTR or AC/DC
I mean BTO
I think a lot of us miss college and grad school
I suggest to each of you that you sign up for the next citizens police academy and actually LEARN what goes on in the Decatur Police Department. I did, and it is an eye opening experience. I did not realize what these men and women go through every day to PROTECT the citizens of Decatur.
BTW, the new Decatur precinct will be at the Waffle House on E. College. If you have a problem and need a police officer, they will be waiting for your arrival.
What a bunch of crap. You complain about this, you complain about the traffic officers when you get stopped going mach 2 on Scott Blvd, you complain when you don’ t think the police are doing their job. So which is it????? Inquiring minds want to know.
And don’t try to change the subject to politics, start another thread for that.
+1
and I thought the new precinct was the QT on Lawrenceville Highway.
Surprised at you Steve. I thought you were at devout believer in the “no personal attacks” rule.
Sorry, DM. Sometimes sarcasm grabs me and won’t let go.
I wasn’t attempting to change the discussion to politics; I was just pointing out that this discussion is no longer going anywhere. But you seem hell bent on continuing your tiresome tirade.
Please respond to this post with more of your vitriol. That way you can have the last word. I’m moving on to more important discussions, like that awesome AMC Pacer picture.
Getting a bit hysterical, aren’t you? (With a moniker like “whiners”, you wanna watch that…) Really– are you serious here? People aren’t complaining that the police aren’t doing their job, nor is anyone here unsupportive of the police. We just believe there’s a line that shouldn’t be crossed, however good the intent, because of where it can lead. It’s OK if you can’t understand that, but your self-righteous harangue is almost certain to turn most people (except Steve, apparently) off to any grain of truth in your message. I also suspect that the politics of the posters who are arguing on the side of civil liberties tend to run the gamut, so I’m not sure why you’re insisting that no one try to turn the discussion to politics– whether we do is irrelevant, since even posters who are usually political opposites are agreeing on this particular subject. DM hasn’t said anything to you in this vein, but I think it needs to be said: You don’t have to like it, and you’re free to express your dislike, but you don’t have to be nasty about it, and you sure the hell don’t get to tell us what to do. Got it?
P.S. I don’t need to sign up for a ride-along to know what police go through to do their jobs– just about all the males on my mother’s side of the family were (or are) either police, firefighters, or military, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what they go through. Your overwrought diatribe doesn’t persuade anyone that you know what you’re talking about, it just makes you sound, well, overwrought.
Honestly, I originally thought he was a cop, and so I allowed the rants and insults because I thought it was a good perspective to hear. Now that I know he’s not, I ask him to read the comment policy before posting again.
Plus I really don’t understand the argument. Asserting that DPD is so fragile that it can’t stand an occasional criticism seems like a bit of an insult to me.
I have a feeling that when other law students in school knew they would be debating Cuba, they probably wet their pants a little. The girl knows what she speaks of, no doubt about it.
After reading his last post below, I’m absolutely convinced this isn’t an intellectually fair fight. That was just so so sad man.
DM, Please let me know what I said that might be offensive that has not been done in any other blog or posting on here. I am merely stating to people that they need to look at all sides of this before posting what they did in the previous posts. They DO NOT understand the situations at all, and are posting merely what they know from watching CSI. I have not attached anyone.
I think the critism is unwarranted, that is why I am so passionate about it. Maybe YOU ought to shut this site down if we cannot have some constructive crtitism around here, or did I hit a nerve?
whiners- Your willingness to passionately defend the Decatur Police Dept is very admirable, but you seem to have lost your ability to hear what anyone else is saying. Folks are NOT WRONG to want to protect their civil liberties. Some of us just disagree that it happened in this particular situation. Decatur Metro is the rockin’ blog it is because we get so many points of view to consider– you’re really missing out if you don’t open yourself up to it, but that’s an individual decision. However, when you’ve reached the point that your comments are being interpreted as insults, then it’s time to walk away or at least chill out.
Here are two…
“I believe that your damn tune would change then. It’s all perception. If you don’t like it, then move out to South DeKalb County, or to Atlanta, or anywhere else and see if you get that kind of attention. You will be lucky to even see a police officer in 6 months if you call then for anything. By that time, everything you own will be in a pawn shop. Forget the cheeze, just get me a 6 pack of Budweiser so I can drown these comments, because they belong in the South River with all the other crap”
“You probably would not even speak up because of the embarressment it would cause.”
It’s quite simple really. This site actually thrives on constructive criticism. But I’ve found that disrespect and insults in online forums – like the ones made above – not only destroy CONSTRUCTIVE conversations, but are completely unnecessary to making a point or voicing a criticism.
All of your points to-date could be made without calling the opposing side’s position “crap”, calling people “whiners”, or telling people to move out of the city. THAT’S the nerve you hit.
“They DO NOT understand”
Yes, you are the only educated person here, we should all bow down to your enlightenment…
I’m not speaking on behalf of DM or anyone else here, but if you take issue with the way the website is run, why stay? There are websites and forums I specifically avoid, (the AJC forums for example) because they are filled with intellectually bankrupt individuals. Why stay on a website and continue to give the operator money through your clicks, if you don’t like it? I wouldn’t.
I’m certain you haven’t hit a nerve, but your arrogant and juvenile attitude, combined with your lack of basic reasoning skills, are pretty irritating for sure. If your arguments were coming from a teenager, it would be amusing, but coming from an adult, it’s just so incredibly sad. If the only thing you have managed to grasp from this entire forum is that people watch to much CSI, then you’re the one that clearly just doesn’t get it, and no matter what anyone says, never will.
fine…..I won’t post here again.
Yeah, I tried to leave in a huff once, a long time ago.
But to quote Michael Corleone in The Godfather: Part III, “Just when I thought I was out… they pull me back in.”
So I came back as another identity (I’m sure DM knows my current name) to start anew.
Don’t leave. As Deanne points out above, this blog thrives on discourse that often conflicts, but we do it (relatively) politely. So stick around and join some other discussions. It’s a great community to be a part of.
I have followed this thread for the past couple of days and I think maybe there is a misconception about the law which has led to folks feeling as though this officer did something illegal, which of course would cause an uproar. However, It is not illegal, in and of itself, for anyone (including the police) to walk onto your property/driveway.
GA 16-7-21 – Criminal Trespass:
(a) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she intentionally damages any property of another without consent of that other person and the damage thereto is $500.00 or less or knowingly and maliciously interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without consent of that person.
(b) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she knowingly and without authority:
(1) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person for an unlawful purpose;
(2) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving, prior to such entry, notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant that such entry is forbidden; or
(3) Remains upon the land or premises of another person or within the vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant to depart.
GA 16-8-18 – Entering Auto:
If any person shall enter any automobile or other motor vehicle with the intent to commit a theft or a felony, he shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, or, in the discretion of the trial judge, as for a misdemeanor.
Read it carefully. There has to be elements such as “damage”, “notice”, “unlawful purpose” and “intent to commit”.
Food for thought.
My understanding of the way the law is applied in Georgia is that intent to commit a crime is assumed when someone is caught entering an auto without permission, the same way someone who is caught entering a house without permission is automatically charged with burglary. In other words, the state does not have to prove intent.
I don’t think it is automatic. The circumstances must be articulated in order to meet the requirements. The state has to prove intent with the circumstances. Where are my DM attorneys? Can you chime in and give us some more insight?
I was also a little surprised we never got clarity on the legal/illegal point.
Well, I guess I’m the guy sleeping on the job! Sorry, it’s been a long week. Here’s the short answer: Sheep Dog laid out a red herring. It’s not a question of whether the officer(s) committed the offenses of criminal trespass or entering an auto. They did not, as the intent element is crucial. Sorry Brianc, but the State absolutely must prove every element of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, including intent, to convict. Circumstantial evidence may be enough, but they must still prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. This standard is often confused with the standard police need to arrest somebody, which is merely probable cause.
On the other hand, an officer entering an auto (or home, or any other private property) without a warrant, probable cause to arrest or reasonable articulable suspicion that some crime has been, or is being committed, is most certainly committing an illegal act. It is ILLEGAL because it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
It’s late and I’ve got court in the morning but I’ll be more than happy to answer any questions about this later on. Unless of course the questions are from Whiners, in which case I gladly cede the floor to Cubalibre…
must be a defense attorney……
By the way, even though the Decatur Police are welcome to join us for dinner, Scrabble, TV, whatever anytime, preferably with a knock first but not necessary if we are stupid enough to leave our doors open to let in the mosquitos and let out the air conditioning, I cannot agree with calling folks on this blog “Whiners”. The correct name, if you read all the threads over time, is “Diners”.
I’m sure you mean this pejoratively, but even so, please be accurate. It’s CRIMINAL defense attorney, sir. Calling me a plain old defense attorney could lead to confusion and may even be considered slanderous if folks take it to mean INSURANCE defense attorney. A more accurate description would be TRIAL LAWYER, which those insurance companies and Republican tort deformers have done such a good job demonizing that I’m sure you will read this, chuckle to yourself and be even more reaffirmed in your sense of superiority.