Restaurant Saturation?
Decatur Metro | July 31, 2008 | 1:09 pmThere’s a great little interview over on the AJC with Decatur Mellow Mushroom owner, Dave Kieffer today. The Q&A covers a lot of ground, from “Why Decatur?” to an explanation of why this particular Mellow Mushroom location has so many horror movie posters on its walls and tables. It’s a great read, especially for those that enjoy the “spring water dough” as much as I do.
However, there was one question in particular that caught my attention.
Immediately after asking Kieffer his first question, “Why Decatur?”, the AJC’s Jon Waterhouse asked him “Do you think downtown Decatur is reaching its peak of restaurant saturation?”
An interesting question for a rather established restaurant owner don’t you think? It would make more contextual sense if Kieffer was brand-spanking new to the area. But he’s not. So to me, it says more about the interviewer than the interviewee. It seems to expose the opinion among Atlanta foodies that Decatur has gotten a little TOO restaurant happy.
What do you think? Does choosing a place for dinner in town give you the hives due to the multitude of options? Is it a bad thing that the city has so many restaurant options and so few utilitarian stores (grocery, hardware…)? If so, then what can be done about it? Or is it just a result of the makeup of the Atlanta metro area? (…meaning big box stores have closed down all the local, more utilitarian shops…so independents are limited to food and drink, clothing and niche products)
I open the virtual floor to your thoughts.
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There are three grocery stores each within 3 miles or so of the heart of downtown Decatur, plus YDFM and Sawicki’s, which is more of a butcher shop than restaurant. That’s an abundance, not a shortage. (I realize that many people don’t like those stores for one reason or another, but that’s a separate issue.) I suppose you could argue hardware stores, but ACE is right there on Scott, within a short bike ride of the heart of downtown. After all, how many hardware stores do we need?
As for restaurants, how can anyone judge that other than by waiting to see whether there’s enough demand to keep them open? I suspect there is, and that, by and large, restaurant closings will result more from failed concepts than oversaturation. From a consumer perspective, the more choices, the better.
Too saturated? I don’t know about the logistics, but the incredible array of food choices is part of what drove me to Decatur to begin with. The competition probably serves to keep everyone’s quality up, and the lesser restaurants will naturally fall by the wayside.
DEM…I’m talking about the make up of restaurants/stores in Downtown Decatur, not within a 5 mile radius. If you’re cool with a lot more restaurants than basic stores downtown and all the “basics” on the fringe, that’s fine…but I think you confused the question.
I agree that for most consumers more choice is a good thing…perhaps “saturation” is a better question for the restaurant owners…which is what Waterhouse did.
The other thing I can’t get around with regard to the restaurant question is in regard to parking. Will Decatur’s restaurant dominated landscape change if we continue to make it harder and harder for people to find free parking downtown? I can’t believe that its just walking/biking residents that are keeping all these great places afloat. So is it one or the other?
I guess I missed the distinction there, sorry. But in asking whether it’s a bad thing for downtown to have relatively few grocers, I think you have to consider what is in the immediate area. In other words, yes, it might be bad to have zero grocers downtown if the closest was 10 miles away. But it’s not a bad thing if there are several on the outskirts of town, and of course one of the Krogers is downtown. Would it be cool to have a small grocer downtown? Sure, but that’s a tough business that does require ample parking, and it’s in short supply in our relatively small downtown.
I kind of agree on free parking, but consider the alternatives. You can go to Decatur and have a reasonable chance to park for free, or at worst, 3-5 bucks. Or you can go to Midtown/Buckhead and have zero chance to find free parking and pay more like $10. Va-Hi is also a pretty tough place to park. We have a ways to go before the parking situation here is comparable to other spots around town, and so I think we will continue to draw folks who live outside Decatur to our restaurants. Of course, avoiding it all by living in town and biking to the square is the best option.
Well there’s one thing I’ll guarantee. Almost none of those folks are arriving by Marta. Ask restaurant owners how many of their patrons come by public trans. I’ll bet it’s just a hand full if that.
I think the city should open up the parking deck for free or give 1 1/2 hour free parking to folks who drive to restaurants. You aren’t going to get people out of their cars until things are a lot worse than they are now.
I also feel that the density required to support a thriving downtown area from just local population will be so high that it will change Decatur beyond recognition. If that’s what they’re aiming for, have at it, I’ll move somewhere that suits me better.
I still wonder what happened. We had a thriving downtown before with just the density we had in the early part of the century. You can see the remains all around you downtown. Whats different now? Why do we have to create a bunch of rat warrens in order to survive? Where did all the money go?
I just wonder.
David – What happened? What didn’t happen? First everyone bought cars and moved to the suburbs thanks to federally funded highways. Then cities destroyed their downtowns with federal urban renewal money. Then Atlanta’s population exploded, resulting in higher property values.
Decatur decided that instead of continuing to promote building huge office buildings with huge parking decks, they would bring the city back to the pedestrian level. The city got more popular…both because Atlanta became more popular and people liked Decatur’s idea. Developers saw the interest and decided to invest their money here. “We” don’t create anything, the city doesn’t create anything…we just do our best to manage the process.
DEM – good points. Parking’s one of those issues where I don’t know which side I come down on.
i don’t think parking is an issue at all….yet. you just have to be creative, but also park legally, and know where and when you can park. as far as restaurants go, how quickly we forget 10 years ago when there were just a few options. i like our choices, but think the variety needs to continue vs. opening several more of the same types of places. grocery stores and hardware stores we have enough of. nail salons and spas….way too many! i am a huge fan of stores that actually cater to the hometown crowd as well as the tourists. without those, our vital community might go downhill. the running shops, whit’s end, decatur cd, and sawicki’s are just a few places in decatur that need the local economy in downtown decatur.
David, good question, and one that has a perfectly reasonable answer that explains why the city’s present course of downtown residential development is important.
In the early parts of the 20th century, Decatur was largely distinct geographically and the models of retail location had yet to be influenced by the car’s impact on personal mobility. That means the whole of Decatur’s population did almost all their shopping downtown all the time. The only common deviation was taking the streetcar to downtown Atlanta. But for the day to day, Decatur was it.
Today, Decatur residents routinely shop outside of town. There’s just way more competition for local dollars. And as long as mobility is easy and relatively affordable, people will continue present habits of traveling for better prices or better quality or whatever. After all, once you’re in the car, what’s the difference between 1 and 5 miles? Almost none.
That’s the point of our increasing residential development downtown. Because that creates a larger pool of people who — even with the option of driving elsewhere — may still find downtown shopping to be the best choice. It’s footsteps away, it’s easy, it’s more personal, etc.
Without such a proximity, downtown retailers are dealing almost exclusively with people in cars, many of whom are making choices based on price. Our retailers offer many benefits but “everyday low prices” isn’t typically their strong suit.
Like it or not, if we want economic viability, we need to deal with the world as it is, rather than as we wish it was. I was here when downtown was downtrodden and dead; when you routinely had to walk past vast parking lots wrapped in chain-link security fencing just to get from one shop to another. With that potential alternate reality in mind, downtown today is *exponentially* better in almost every regard. If opening it up to residents plays a part in what we’ve achieved, I say bring ’em on.
I think a two year experiment on opening the parking deck would be a boon to the marketing of Decatur as a cool spot to go. The restaurants and shops would would love it!
I cannot lie…I grew up in Atlanta intown, (played HS baseball at McKoy Park!) and until I moved to Oakjurst never really know ANYTHING about Decatur.
Create the demand, value rises, help the independents, shut down the experiment.
Boom!
I gotta say, I’m all about food. The variety and number of restaurants is one of the big reasons we moved here from Druid Hills. The fact the we can get into most of them without a 45 minute wait and a $10 parking bill is another. The restaurants bring people in, results in them getting up close and personal with the community and then, they return. Sometimes they move!
The seemingly continual turnover is typical of the industry; those inside will tell you that updates need to be made every few years or staleness sets in. Another factor, IMHO, is that many restaurant concepts are launched from emotion rather than a solid business plan and even more importantly– near-flawless execution.
Someone affiliated with the Dntn Business Association can confirm or deny this– but I’m pretty sure there’s free parking in at least one of the city garages in the evening. Maybe the between Church and Clairmont behind the space f/k/a Micks? If I’m right, they really need to make this more apparent to a visitor.
Nobody at Decatur First Bank minds if folks park in its lot after business hours. They don’t boot when the Bank is open like at the CVS lot, but you might get a lovely orange sticker on your window if you park while the bank is open and you go off to do business elsewhere. Great place to park for Ted’s, Cakes & Ale, Cafe Lily, The Chocolate Bar, Tastings, etc.
I’m not sure what people are referring to by “city garages,” but I’m only aware of one owned by the City (at the Decatur Conference Center). It is not free at any time and I doubt that people would go out of their way to park there at night even if it were.
The County garage (corner of W Trinity Pl & Commerce Dr) *is* free in the evenings. During the daytime, it’s only $2.
The parking deck I’m referring to is the one behind the old Micks.
Isn’t all of the meter parking free in the evenings? The county deck (behind DeKalb County Courthouse) costs about $2 for the entire day. Those two options work pretty well for me.
The Town Center deck is owned by Pope & Land. It seemed to have more options for free parking many years ago (on Sundays, for example) but I think they discovered that people were willing to pay for parking all of the time.
Even in the evenings, I frequently see people putting money into the street meters. People are often accustomed to doing so in areas of Atlanta where enforcement is 24/7 and many just don’t seem to mind paying for convenience.
Two dollars for parking is a bargain! Try to find that in downtown Atlanta. Or most anywhere else, for that matter. As Carl mentioned, the DeKalb County deck is free after 5pm and on weekends. Just have to get those “car minded folks” to walk that whole block to the square. Lots of folks from OTP are conditioned to go to strip malls where they can park right in front of their destination. It is our duty to get them out of their cars to take a short walk. Good for their health!
I know Crescent Moon validates parking at the garage behind it – the one with the entrance at the Marta bus turnaround, is that the dead end of Swannton Way? – and possibly other places do as well. But if you do not get validation, beware – it is something like $6 to get out.
What is the difference between driving 1 and 5 miles? In Atlanta, about 10 stoplights. They’re everywhere. Honestly, it’s so bad that I’ve all but given up driving except when it’s absolutely necessary.
(OT) I thought that one of Sonny’s big initiatives was to provide $$ for traffic light synchronization. Does anyone know where this has actually been done in the Metro area? On the contrary, there is hardly a time I drive down Ponce or North Ave (my main ways to get to midtown) that I don’t get stopped by a light where there is NO traffic coming from the side street and/or the light stays red way long after all opposing/entering traffic has passed.
I think folks need to go into the stores/shops and see what is available. Often there are sales and discounts. The Decatur Shops Green Shopping idea automatically gives you 10% off. I find Sawicki’s sandwiches comparable, Decatur CD prices the same as at the mall. Same with Fleet Feet, and Whit’s End. Now if you are Wal-Mart shopper, then you will get the quality you pay for. I went into some of the stores in the Highlands, and others nearby, and for the convenience, personal service and ease, many of the stores in Decatur work best for me. Recently, I went into the men’s stores in the Highlands, and Whit’s End is far better in what Decaturites wear, and prices. I am a true fan of that store, and hope more of Decatur shops there to keep it around. Oh, and Heliotrope has great gifts at fair prices. Plus a vital downtown community with restaurants AND shops will keep our property values on the rise….oh, and the good school system too!
I think the city should open up the parking deck for free or give 1 1/2 hour free parking to folks who drive to restaurants.
It is unbelievable how much ignorance is driving this density vs. non density debate. There is plentiful (almost too much) parking in downtown Decatur – paid parking and free parking.
Yes, during weekdays when there are thousands of office workers downtown, people visiting the county courhouse, and doing business at the county government offices, most lots charge a nominal fee to park ($2 for all day at the county deck right behind Crescent Moon).
But after 6PM (when most restaurants are doing their business) the county deck is free to park (which is no more than 2 blocks from most downtown Decatur restaurnats), the county also has a free evening surface lot right behind Nathalies Fish House, other people have mentioned that metered street parking is free during evenings, and that most businesses who are closed like Decatur 1st don’t care if you park there during non business hours. There is plenty of free parking on weekends and weeknights to visit our restaurants.
I believe that the anti-density crowd is using parking as a red herring. But I don’t think it is going to work because all you have to do is produce the number of spaces in a 2 block radius of anywhere.
Yes, we could require our restaurants and retail to have their own parking lots on site, like our suburban counterparts. But what we would get is strip mall development with huge parking lots on site.
That, more than anything else we could do, would change the character and walkability of Decatur.
It continues to amaze me to see the number of people every day who drive around and around the N McDonough loop by City Hall looking for parking when the [cheaper] County deck is a half a block away and there are even [same price] spots available along the street on the other side of Trinity. No wonder Georgia’s obesity numbers are so high.
There is parking in Decatur but the lack of signage for the parking makes it seem much worse than it is. Five to eight well placed large signs on the main entry points of Decatur would really help. What about a parking guide/map for the downtown area? Small changes would bring big results in this situation.
You’re right, cousin SteveR. The new wayfinding signs do have “Parking” on them, but dedicated, noticable signage would help more. BTW, the “Mallternative” maps do have parking well noted.
I’m not sure what density has to do with this argument, ignorant or otherwise. Some restaurants already do this as has been mentioned. To me it’s just a way of helping the merchants that are already here stay here. If you don’t do what you can to encourage patronage they won’t be here by the time you get your precious mixed use development off the ground.
I stand by my statement that for restaurant traffic for the foreseeable future Marta is a non-issue. No matter what the high density folks say.
BTW I have to say I walk downtwn most of the time and when I can’t I park at the library. You can’t beat a free read.
David, need I remind you that you started the “density” aspect of this when you said in this thread:
I also feel that the density required to support a thriving downtown area from just local population will be so high that it will change Decatur beyond recognition. If that’s what they’re aiming for, have at it, I’ll move somewhere that suits me better.
I still wonder what happened. We had a thriving downtown before with just the density we had in the early part of the century. You can see the remains all around you downtown. Whats different now? Why do we have to create a bunch of rat warrens in order to survive? Where did all the money go?
I just wonder.
So don’t call me out when I respond to your ridiculous argument.
Actually I asked the original question regarding density Bill. I asked if Decatur’s commercial landscape would change if we really limited parking and instead of relying on people driving in to support our shops/restaurants.
But we’ve kind of gotten off topic with people trying to tie things back to 315 W. Ponce and other general parking concerns…now I’m just confused and tired.
Bills got mighty big toes. Easy to step on. I’d say. Ta, Ta.
Guys, keep it civil or take it elsewhere. Don’t wear out your welcome on my site.
You both are well aware of how it works.
I’ve kept it civil. David is the one who has said he’d leave town if he doesn’t get his way.
Actually I think we don’t have enough restaurants in Decatur. I’d particularly like to see more outdoor areas. I think the Bricks new spot will have some but not right away. They’re opening in November I think.
One thing I’ve always thought would be great in Decatur would be roof top bars or restaurants. In some areas of Decatur you’d have a great view of downtown. Kind of like 6 feet unders great rooftop.
I’ve casually mentioned this to the powers that be at the Brick over a Bernie or 2 but now I’m sure they’ve got their hands full with the new space.
That said I don’t think franchises work very well in Decatur. Indies seem to do much better. I’ve never been sure how Ruby Tuesday stays in business.
Deep corporate pockets, rent breaks or tax breaks. Must be something.
No doubt about chains in Decatur. But I think any of these mini-chains would be very welcome: Alon’s bakery. La Fonda Latina. Goldfish/Prime. Seasons 52. Trader Joes (I know it’s not a restaurant, but I like the samples bar).
And then, I wouldn’t mind having these old friends close by: Costco [as long as it’s over by that QT]. Sheetz with MTO [ditto].
Wouldn’t that unoccupied bank building directly across Ponce from the old courthouse make an amazing restaurant space? Why isn’t anyone doing anything with this unique and highly visible location and space?
I’ll second Alons. A little know fact is that indie coffee shop near little azio carries Alons pastries.
I always thought that the space above By Hand South that now has Junor gallery in it would be awesome restaurant space. You know “Windows on the Square”. I looked into myself for my business at one time but they wanted too much per square foot.
David….
$/sqft is the main reason most retailers can’t make it here. I also agree with previous poster who stated that many new “shops” don’t seem to have executed a good business plan….if you are not financially able to suck it up for 12 – 18 months before hitting the black, you aren’t being realistic. Have also heard in casual discussions that our history of multiple festivals throughout the year actually INHIBITS folks spending in Decatur and kills business durng those times, although I have no first hand knowledge that is actually true. Theory is folks are spending on food and trinkets from vendors and booths rather than shopping in the stores that pay rent…
Somewhat off topic, but if we EVER can get a convention space/performing arts center to bring in crowds, it would be a great boon to tese hard working retailers…and eventually our tax base. I have often dreamed of a performing arts center smack dab where that run down county building ( and horrible asphalt inpervious heat island) is between Decatur Stadium and courthouse. How great would THAT location be, tied to our high school and our downtown?
…oops…hit send too soon.
Even Carrollton has a beautifulf PAC downtown…and that is CARROLLTON!
This should be a whole other thread of course….
Interesting debate. As someone who doesn’t live in Decatur (yet), but visits frequently, I have to say that parking is almost never an issue for me. But then again I don’t insist on parking twenty feet from my destination. One of the great things about Decatur is its walkability. I typically patronize several businesses when I visit, but my car stays in one spot, and it is always a free spot.
I don’t understand the comments about restaurant saturation. In the age of online shopping and Wal-Mart, restaurants and other service- oriented businesses are the most viable options for local, independent owners.
What I do think Decatur needs more of are in the category of “things to do.” More music venues, playhouses, etc. I would love it if Decatur had something like the Strand in Marietta, i.e a venue that offers both live performance and movies. Of course it would have to be built from scratch, unlike the Strand.