Ponce @ Nelson Ferry Roundabout Possible But Needs Support and Land
Decatur Metro | July 7, 2011
Decatur’s City Planner Amanda Thompson recently provide me with this official response regarding the construction of a roundabout at the five-way intersection of West Ponce de Leon Ave, Nelson Ferry Road, Northern Ave and the Credit Union parking lot. Al provided me with this Google Map view of the North Decatur @ Lullwater roundabout super-imposed over the intersection a while back.
I contacted one of our local traffic engineers, Sean Johnston with Kimley Horn, to give me a quick opinion on the feasibility of a roundabout at Northern/West Ponce/Nelson’s Ferry.
He stated, “I think a modern single-lane roundabout, similar in scale but a little larger than the one on North Decatur Road at Lullwater near Emory, might work here. There are some challenges – you’d probably need some right-of-way from the church playground and the post office, the grade on Northern is steep, and roundabouts work better with relatively even traffic volume distribution among intersecting streets.”
For those of you who are not familiar with transportation terms “right of way” means land. So based on the engineer’s initial assessment there is not enough existing pavement between all the curbs to build a roundabout.
This project is not identified in the Community Transportation Plan or the 2010 Strategic Plan. So it would need significant community support to become part of our transportation program and for the City to pursue funding. Occasionally, the Georgia Department of Transportation will help fund roundabouts if the City prepares a concept study showing whether or not the roundabout will work.
The good news is that the City will kick off the re-design of the Commerce/Clairemont Avenue and Commerce/Church Street intersections within the next couple of weeks. Roundabouts are one of the options that will be considered. Check the Decatur Focus and www.decaturga.com for information on the dates for public input.
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I am loving the roundabout near Emory. Just wish people would use their signals when they are exiting the circle.
Agreed 100%.
That new turnabout at Emory has created a huge improvement in traffic flow at the interesection. The same thing at the Ponce/Nelson Ferry/Northern intersection would be great.
I just hope they don’t mess with the beloved “toy park.” There are quite a few nice playgrounds in the general area, but there’s something special about that park/playground.
Since the unofficial name for this park among some tots is the “round and round park”, a roundabout would fit nicely next to it! As they pedaled round and round the park, the tots could watch the cars go round!
Yes, please please keep the “Land of the Misfit Toys” park. (That’s what we call it.) We LOVE it and go several times a week.
Otherwise, I like the idea of a roundabout. That light is a bummer.
So, Soon… when can we start referring to you as “The Poster Formerly Known As STBN”???
Yep, I’m now an official City of Decatur resident now.
We closed on our house a few months ago.
“roundabouts work better with relatively even traffic volume distribution among intersecting streets”
Lullwater/North Decatur doesn’t strike me as having the same volumes to/from Lullwater as North Decatur, but I’ll admit that I haven’t seen traffic counts. Volumes on Ponce at the proposed location would certainly exceed the intersecting streets, but IMO the concept should be explored.
Some accommodation would need to be made for the fairly large volume of pedestrian traffic at that location, though, as roundabouts don’t lend themselves to pedestrians.
Good news on the upcoming work on the Commerce intersection, though. Those are just about the most pedestrian-unfriendly places I can think of.
My husband and I have found the new roundabout in Emory Village to be much more pedestrian friendly than what was there before. The actual width of street to cross on foot is less, it’s easier to see what the traffic is doing, the cars are moving much slower, and the drivers act less entitled to speed through the intersection. Maybe this will change when school is back in session, but so far, so good.
This is a GREAT idea. The roundabout near Emory seems to work well with a similar traffic pattern.
I would like to see just how much land for right of way is really needed.
How do we get this idea moving to a pro forma stage where we all can see just what resources, dollars and right of way access it would need?
Sign me up.
The good news, in light of Steve’s comments above, is that the single greatest contributor to roundabouts being pedestrian unfriendly is over-engineering. The more modest you make them, with lane widths and other “geometries” that restrict speed, the easier they are for those of foot to take advantage of them.
Which is good because, the more modest they are, the less land (right of way) they consume. And the less they cost to build.
Paragraph two pretty much sums up the reasons a roundabout is not likely at this intersection.
As Officer Tricycle Willie told me after ticketing me for riding my bike onto Ponce from Northern, you should consider another route.
Why were you ticketed?
I chose to stop on Northern then ride through the red light onto Ponce, cutting across Nelson’s Ferry. At the time I justified my actions by the fact that the signal sensors at the yoga studio don’t (didn’t) pick up bikes. And stopping a bike on that hill is a problem. I was impatient and got popped.
Maybe the Decatur police can get even more proactive and ticket cyclists for speeding, as the NYPD did in Central Park. Until we stop cyclists from proceeding through empty intersections and doing 27 in 25 zones, no one will be safe from the danger of 20 lb bikes zooming around on roads built for 3,000 lb cars.
That particular traffic signal does not conform to lawful requirements as the detection sensor is improperly set. I have proven this with my bicycle during hours with no motor vehicle traffic and it is well known and discussed in the community.
The fact that Decatur “public safety” officials do nothing to correct this known hazard yet use it to issue tickets is quite irritating.
The last part of section D is relevant here.
40-6-20. Obedience to traffic-control devices required; presumptions; enforcement by traffic-control signal monitoring devices
(d) Any official traffic-control device placed pursuant to this chapter and purporting to conform to the lawful requirements pertaining to such devices shall be presumed to comply with the requirements of this chapter, unless the contrary shall be established by competent evidence.
Not a facile argument in the officer’s view.
Once again we’re dealing with the fact that traffic signals in Decatur are maintained by DeKalb County traffic engineering who, IMO, cannot even install a stop sign correctly, much less maintain complex signals.
No one is asking a Decatur police officer to adjust the traffic signal.
I do expect them to investigate or pass along reports of defective traffic signals and ensure the public is protected from the hazard.
The pattern over the years indicates that this does not happen.
My point is that, even when things get reported, they don’t get fixed, so we don’t know whether they were reported or not.
While we’re at it, why not a roundabout at McDonough/Howard/College?
Right on top of the tracks?
Gosh. it would be fun to watch the trains go around it !
I’ll be the roundabout
The words will make you out and out
I’ll spend the day your way
Call it morning driving through the sound
And in and out the valley
I have no idea what these lyrics even mean. Damn that rock and roll nonsense.
“I have no idea what these lyrics even mean. Damn that rock and roll nonsense.”
Damn, you just broke character.
What else should I be?
All apologies.
What else could I say?
Everyone is [self-edit]
What else could I write?
I don’t have the right.
What else should I be?
All Apologies.
Dig deeper into 70’s/80’s british prog rock, Lyrics Only Guy!
I’m losing on the swings, I’m losing on the roundabout,
I’m losing on the swings, I’m losing on the roundabout,
Too much, too soon, too far to go, too late to play,
The game is over.
Script for a Jester’s Tear,
Marillion
A roundabout would be a vast improvement there. I’ve spent many hours waiting for that light on Nelson Ferry.
I would love a roundabout. Maybe some more of that traffic on w ponce would cut through Nelson Ferry instead!
Don’t think folks on Nelson Ferry, Clarion, Woodlawn or Coventry would like traffic diverted their way! But the narrowness, curviness, and speed bumps on those streets would probably prevent them from becoming major alternatives to West Ponce. I think a roundabout would slow all traffic, change driving habits, and benefit all. (Except those who are late for work but I have proven to myself many, many times that driving like a maniac won’t get you to work more than 0-5 minutes quicker so you might as well admit defeat if you already left late for work. Rush and run over the family at home, not others on the road.)
I was being a bit sarcastic to those on nelson ferry etc that wish a traffic circle for their personal benefit. Be careful what you wish for….the unintended consequence may be a more popular cut-through on your quiet neighborhood street. Ask those on Adair how much the speed bumps stop cut through traffic. Maybe it slows it down a bit, but if it beats another route, cars will take it.