A “Bike Box” and Restriping Proposed for West Ponce
Decatur Metro | February 21, 2011 | 3:25 pm
Another item on tomorrow night’s Decatur City Commission meeting agenda: a $38,000 change-order to make changes to the West Ponce de Leon/Trinity car and bike lanes.
Here’s a rundown of the additions/alterations being proposed to the City Commission in a letter from Deputy City Manager Hugh Saxon (pg. 28 of the meeting materials)…
- “Bike Box” at West Ponce and West Trinity Place: $11,000
- Re-striping of West Ponce between Trinity & Pinetree: $5,100
- Changing material used to stripe bike lanes from paint to a “more durable thermoplastic”: $5,600
- Misc, signing sand cleanup: $3,800
- Additional paving materials needed for milled portion of West Ponce: $8,500
- Contingency: $4,000
According to Saxon’s letter, funds are available in the approved project budget to pay for these additional expenses.
Pic above: An example of a “bike box” in Seattle
¿Eleven Large? ¿Is the paint tinted with unicorn tears?
Why are you speaking in Spanish?
Old perro, new tricks. It’s a habit.
WAIT-HERE
Lord, please don’t make us like Seattle.
green paint was being applied yesterday
I’d never know where to wait without that sign.
very glad for the re-do of W. Ponce b/n Pinetree and Trinity– just waiting to see or experience an accident in the current configuration.
the color decatur is using isn’t so tinted-with-unicorn-tears-green…but it does grab your attention, which i believe is the whole point.
This is getting out of control.
I wonder how many days $38,000 could operate a circulator shuttle system?
Just wondering, so that when the City Commission says we can’t afford one, we can look back at expenses such as this.
Or what it could achieve in the way of traffic calming on Second Avenue, where some pedestrians (including at least one child, if I correctly remember the bystander chatter) weren’t flattened by an out-of-control SUV on Friday only because they happened to be walking on the other side of the street.
I do think they needed to re-stripe the intersection at Ponce and West Trinity, but that seems awfully elaborate and expensive, when there are so many other spots in town that also need attention.
Agreed.
Is this REALLY the best use of $38k? If any of us had $38,000 lying around is this the project that would be on the top of the list for the funds.
If we can spend $38,000 on bike lane paint, then one must figure that all the other issues in our little town have been resoplved. The Rec center has been re-done, the Webster complex is all new and shiny, we have our trolley line installed to Oakhurst and downtown Atlanta….
I can hear the rebuttal now. “Its Federal money – we had to spend it.”
No, we didn’t.
A waste is a waste no matter who is paying for it.
The people on 2nd Avenue have been complaining for years about getting some traffic calming going on on that street and were told that the city could not afford anything more than a new stop sign that everyone agreed was useless, so much so that they decided not to put it up.
2nd Avenue is much more walked/biked area that that stretch of Ponce de Leon between the City Limits and the Church. The recent accident over there, as mentioned, demonstrates how dangerous it is.
I can see how the City spending $38,000 on a change order for nothing more than paint for the Ponce project might upset a few people who feel like 2nd Avenue and the south side is once again getting short shrift.
Hopefully, the recent accident will motivate City Hall to do something about speeding on that street.
I would suggest having the neighborhood pull together and pickup a few of these-
http://www.stop-painting.com/ao-30-800.html
put them out and if anyone says anything, run outside and grab them before a complaint / citation can be made
There’s probably a big range, but we can pick a number for fun. Running 7 days a week? Let’s say 43 days.
I like it
I’ve been hit by unobservant drivers twice while riding my bike in Decatur; a friend of mine has been run off the road as well. We both observe all traffic rules when biking. I think this is a good idea.
The total amount for the project is now close to $440,000 (but still within the original budget). For those of us who questioned the wisdom of spending so much on a project that benefits so few (I’ve yet to see a biker using this improvement), there are two pieces of good news. 1. The proposal ends with this statement- “This should be the only change order for this project” and 2. Although not mentioned in the proposal, I was told that the city and Saint Thomas More Church and School worked out a solution concerning parking on Ponce.
Maybe it’s all part of a divine plan to bring more vehicles and bikers to parochial education and/or salvation. If so, it may be a good thing after all.
I think you don’t see many people using them because that section of West Ponce probably had very little bike traffic to begin with. It dead-ends at Ponce, which is probably the worst road in Atlanta on which to ride a bike, and therefore feeds very little bike traffic onto the W Ponce tributary. Plus, many people heading to Decatur from the west — say Candler Park — would most likely head away from W Ponce and jump on the Stone Mountain bike path.
I approach Decatur from the Druid Hills area on close to a daily basis, and it would be relatively easy for me to swing past Fernbank and then up W Ponce to get where I am going. But I don’t do it because even that would require a short stint on Ponce. Last week I passed two other bike commuters who took the same route. None of us went even a short distance out of our way to use the W Ponce bike lanes.
I’ve used the lane several times to get to the new bike lanes along ponce.
There are bike lanes on Ponce now? I need to get out more — I really had no idea.
Set your watch and come watch the fun as I breeze by on my two-wheel at 8:00 AM and 6:45 PM daily. It’s a regular commuter route between Decatur and downtown.
Wondering… How necessary is the dedicated left turn lane from eastbound Ponce onto Trinity?
‘scuse me, I mean westbound Ponce…
Put me down as one old codger happy to see this. How people could get so bent out of shape over something with essentially no impact on their lives is beyond me. What? You might have to pay attention when you drive now?
Listen, the DOT’s been tokin’ off the tailpipe for decades. No it’s time to balance things out. What’s the big deal?
Does anyone know if the design is changing significantly or just getting more colorful? Are the car turning lanes/ passing lanes returning? Is anything changing between Trinity and Adair? IMHO it seems like they’re trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Ponce de Leon project total ( yes, I realize paving was a large portion) +/-$437,000.00. Sorry to be negative, but I’m just not a fan. It used to be such a nice road.
Such a nice road? Two lanes of speeding traffic in both directions now qualifies as the good old days? Oh good Lord. I appreciate that our residents have opinions but I sure am glad they’re not in charge.
Ponce and Trinity are better now.
Can’t wait for N McDonough next.
My instinct tells me that this is one of those cases where building bike infrastructure on W. Ponce was a convenient excuse to install much needed traffic calming measures. That stretch was one terrible section of high speed traffic sewer. Bike boxes are useful as an official reminder to motorists that it is a legal and recommended practice for cyclists to move to the front of stopped cars at a controlled intersection.
The vast majority of the funds went to mill and repave the road. The rest of the project was mostly paint. The paint is already fading; hence Mr. Saxon’s request to use a more durable material for the lines. The residents of W. Ponce and that area of town have complained for years about the speeding traffic and lack of parking. The bike lane project has significantly calmed traffic and provided parking along that area of W. Ponce. From the comments I have gotten from the W. Ponce folks, it appears that the bike lanes have helped solve these problems.
There are some final tweaks – some of which showed up after the lanes were installed; most notably the taper on the westbound lane of W. Ponce where the lanes did not line up. This change order addresses that.
The funds came from a Transportation Enhancement grant – these are federal funds and they can only be spent on projects like this.
Agreed, Fred, but don’t expect that to prevent people from imposing their own personal fantasy on a larger, perfectly reasonable reality.
The people who actually live there are happy? The kinks are being worked out? Speeds have been reduced and now we can all share the road like we claim we care about (and has proven to work downtown)? And it came from grant money?
Sounds terrible.
Robert,
Of course it’s not terrible. I think you’re missing the point about the money spent on this project. Every dollar spent on a project like this, can’t be spent on something else. This is great for the residents of W. Ponce, but imagine how much happier the *entire* population of Decatur would be if that $440,000 was spent on beer instead. Our thinking is much too limited on issues like this.
Beer subsides? I can see the Onion article already. “It seemed like a good at the time. Of course I was drunk, but…”
And you mean to tell us that THIS was the best way to spend the money??!!
Unbeliveable.
Love it!! I agree, the main point of the thing was to slow traffic, didn’t they call it a road diet at one time? For the number of cars that use that street, there is no reason to have 4 lanes. It just makes people want to speed up. Now people are actually driving close to the speed limit on that stretch, which is 30mph not 60+ like everyone seemed to think it was. Hopefully the final version of stripes and signage between Pinetree and Trinity will clear up all those confused drivers in the left lane going straight.
And it is much more pleasant and safe walking/jogging on W Ponce now, and many people do that. Before this it felt unsafe to even walk your dog there, now it’s great. Too bad we can’t get a better bike/walk path from the city limits to Deepdene, that is one of the nicest spots to walk anywhere around and terribly underutilized because it is so dangerous to get to.
It is my understanding that one of the informal goals of Decatur Active Living is improvement of the bike/pedestrian connection between W. Ponce and Deepende Park.
My goodness. It’s a noble goal, but how is it even possible?
Bill Adams, Chair, has a comprehensive idea of how to accomplish this. Bike Decatur (google group) has also discussed this at length. It is amazing what a can of paint and tweaking of the rules of the road can accomplish.
I ride on Ponce/Scott sometimes. The worst problems are that the climbs are long and it’s not a very interesting street because of its current thru-street configuration. Traffic is bearable, actually.
Maybe it’s for those bicycling enthusiasts who always have their bikes parked on Adair Street across from the park?
Love it!
Meanwhile, Second Ave has a SUV jump a speed hump cross the road and plows through a sidewalk, mailbox and thankfully is stopped by an Oak tree (and a very young one). Just saying..
As a youth, I always heard that by 2000 we would all have flying cars.
Be careful what you wish for!
There you go, rubbing salt in an old wound…
What a colossal waste of tax payer money. Creating a solution (bike lanes) where their is no demand & screwing up STM school traffic. Government at its finest. Spending on something that didn’t need to be fixed & causing more problems. If you don’t think this caused problems, just experience “car pool” pick-up in the afternoons at St Thomas school. This re-lining project causes cars to idle much longer as we have to wait much longer for cars to exit STM’s parking lot due to the messed up light & stripping at the intersection fo Trinity & Ponce. Not to mention the lost time of all the parents & teachers waiting around. How do you enviros feel about having more cars polluting the air more due to needless idling?
Idling? You have one of those so-yesterday-mobiles?
Maybe you should get a bike with a trailer. Kids love to ride in them and now that part of town is safer with the new bike lanes. Just saying!
But that would require thinking outside the (steel) box.
Uhhh, Mic, you act like this was some arbitrary decision. For anyone paying attention, this just checks an item off the Transportation Plan, which has been adopted for OVER 3 YEARS and went through multiple public meetings when it was put together. Where was your outrage then, when it could have had some effect? Oh, yeah. Showing up is hard. Spouting off arm-chair quarterback style is easy.
What seems a little more clear from your and other’s comments is that STM considers the on-street parking and stacking space around their facility to be their personal dominion. Unfortunately, you really need to be the Vatican for that level of sovereignty.
Mic,
I know Glennwood encourages parents picking up children to park across the street and walk in to pick up their children so not to block so much traffic along E Ponce every afternoon. Maybe St Thomas More could consider using some of that parking along the other side of trinity to streamline their pickup after school. Even if only half the parents picking up did this, it would probably solve the congestion problem.
I do not consider the project a colossal waste of money, it makes this side of Decatur more pleasant and walkable for the residents that live in Lenox Point, Parkwood, Upland as well as those on W. Ponce. I will say I am a bit amazed at how many times the new paint has been painted and erased. it is really hard to see what the real lanes are, especially at night. Hope the final version is more clear to all.
Issues with car pool and the envrironment at STM belong to STM, not me or other Decatur residents. How about STM stepping up and doing something about it. Ever heard of school buses? Now that’s a concept.
Q: “How do you enviros feel about having more cars polluting the air more due to needless idling? ”
A: I make the personal choice to not idle my car whenever possible. Instead of idling, I could choose to find parking and pick up on foot.
Um, about that ‘stripping at the intersection fo Trinity & Ponce’. I’d figure folks would be more concerned about the stripping than the idling?
You are right, Gladys. All those strippers and idlers–in front of the church, no less! It’s a disgrace!
Or…… STM could fix their own problem? Possibly by redoing where the pickups are or change their layout of parking/driveways.
Dang it, this thing will encourage bikers to go in front of me at the light after I finally manage to pass them. That’s my personal pet peeve with bikers. Share the road people!
Oh wait, there’s a bike lane right there…never mind. I just couldn’t pass up an opportunity to make one of my favorite gripes!
Your personal pet peeve is sharing the road with cyclists yet you admonish them to share it with you. Please elaborate on this new theory of “sharing” you’ve developed.
Sure, share the road means wait your turn at the light. If you’re on a bicycle and you’re obeying the laws of the road you should wait your turn, just like the cars do.
Expecting others to obey a rule that only exists in your imagination must be very frustrating.
Perhaps if you aquainted yourself with the actual “rules of the road” you would be less angry towards vulnerable road users.
Here’s one you may like to start with. 40-6-294 (a)
It describes that cyclists should stay to the right side when passing stopped and slowed motor vehicles in the same lane.
Happy reading and happy motoring!
Not my interpretation, at all.
It states that “every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as far to the right side of the roadway as practicable except – when the lane is too narrow to share safely with a motor vehicle.”
294a gives bicyclists the right to take the lane, not pass stopped traffic.
yes it does
“… while exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction; “
I disagree. Nowhere in Georgia code does you say a vehicle may pass to the right of another vehicle in the same lane. My interpretation is that a pass involves moving to the left of a stopped or show-moving vehicle.
If otherwise authorized, the driver of a vehicle may
overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right
only under conditions permitting such movement in
More cut and paste for your enjoyment and education…
safety. Such movement shall not be made by driving
off the roadway [§40-6-43 (b)].
(A cyclist traveling in a bicycle lane, or in a lane
wide enough for motor vehicles and bicycles to
share (see roadway position above) may pass
motor vehicles on the right, but must still take
care to avoid turning vehicles. This is allowed
since in these cases there is either provision of a
lane or sufficient width for two lines of moving
traffic; one of which is bicycle traffic.)
Uncle. I will read updated provisions and enjoy splitting the lane.
That section of the law deals with exceptions to the rule that bicyclists must stay in the right hand portion of the lane; it doesn’t explicitly state that it’s legal for bicyclists to jump to the front of the line at traffic lights because they don’t feel like having to wait like everyone else.
Moreover, regardless of the letter of the law (which is open to interpretation), it’s not the smartest move in the world if you’re on a bicycle and the motorist finally manages to catch a break enough in traffic on a busy street to pass you, that you cut in front of the motorist at the light and force him to pass you all over again. This doesn’t tend to make motorists very tolerant of bicyclists, hence my admittedly flippant comment that I’d like to see bicyclists “share the road” a little more.
It’s not only legal. Many municipalities are constructing intersection bike boxes specifically to visually remind drivers that cyclist may pass them on the right and move to the front of the line where they are within the driver’s view and safer.
I’ see no problem with bike boxes on roads where there are bike lanes, if nothing else the bike box serves as a visual reminder to cyclists that they are required to stop at red lights, just like everyone else.
A bike box without bike lanes? Please provide references to back your claim.
I can find no post here where someone said there were bike boxes being constructed without bike lanes. Though, if there were, why would that be an issue?
It’s surprising how many people are nurturing an absurd misconception that cyclists are not permitted to pass traffic on the right unless they are in a marked bike lane. I’ve even seen drivers cut their front wheels and drive up onto the curb in an infantile attempt to prevent cyclists from passing them this way.
As long as the roadway is wide enough for a car and a bicycle to share the lane safely, then the cyclist is exercising their legal right (per Ga state code 40-6-43) to pass stopped or slowed traffic on the right-hand side of that traffic. Bonus: If an infantile driver deliberately closes the gap to the curb, the cyclist may then pass on that car’s left side per 40-6-294.
I don’t agree with your reading of the code. Do you speak on some authority?
` an absurd misconception that cyclists are not permitted to pass traffic on the right
Properly defined, I don’t see that position as absurd. You seem to be saying that cyclists may break from the orderly procession of vehicles at mediated stops by citing rules for passing. If that’s the rule we want, it’s a case worth clarification.
` If there were [bike boxes without bike lanes], why would that be an issue?
If such a thing were commonplace, it might bolster your claim that bike boxes are meant to “visually remind drivers that cyclist may pass them on the right” – which is something I’ve never heard [attributed to bike boxes] before. (Do you have a reference?)
` Bonus: If an infantile driver
Unfortunately we’re not talking about a strategy game. You’re not toying with only your own safety; please keep in mind that antagonism you evoke may cost another cyclist their life.
The traffic code carries the authority of the Georgia Legislature and is plain enough for any citizen to read and understand (which is a motorist’s legal duty)
If you need more, you could peruse page 14 of the Georgia Bicycle Law Enforcement Guide provided by the Governor’s Office of Highway Safety.
http://www.gahighwaysafety.org/docs/gabicyclelawenforcementguide.pdf
Lawfully excercising one’s right to use a public road is not a game of strategy. it’s citizens going about their business. Dangerous drivers should not play games with their vehicles in order to deprive other road users of their rights by intimidation and threats.
“Lawfully excercising one’s right to use a public road is not a game of strategy”
…should not have to be a game of strategy.
there, fixed it.
” I’ve even seen drivers cut their front wheels and drive up onto the curb in an infantile attempt to prevent cyclists from passing them this way.”
I love that maneuver! Keeps me from having to make another pass of the cyclist and only costs the cyclist a few seconds time and doesn’t expose them to the risks associated with getting passed by a car. It’s a win/win. Not a bad move at all. If the cyclist insists on cutting to the front of the line because they don’t like waiting their turn like everyone else then I guess they can pass on the left.
“As long as the roadway is wide enough for a car and a bicycle to share the lane safely, then the cyclist is exercising their legal right”
Yep, that’s the whole crux of the argument. If there’s a bike lane, or if the lane is actually wide enough for us both, then it doesn’t bother me and it’s legal. The problem is that city streets tend to be narrow, so there’s usually not enough room for both of us in the lane. If the cars are stopped at a light waiting for their turn to go, then many times the cyclists feel they can safely squeeze by because the cars aren’t moving….as soon as the light changes the cyclist isn’t so happy to be sharing the lane any more.
So the cases where it’s annoying and illegal for the cyclist to do the pass are when the lanes aren’t wide enough for the car and the cyclist to ride together, which in the city is most of the time.
You propose that your anonomous secret finding is valid justification to inimidate lawful unsuspecting cyclists by use of an overt criminal act. (Intentionally blocking someone’s path)
In the case of a bicycle overtaking a standing automobile on the right side, the auto driver in the left hand seat is figuratively and literally in no position to make such a judgement.
The cyclist with a direct and unobstructed view of the roadway clearance and recent experience safely passing in such a manner many thousands of times is the best judge of the safety of this manuveur and carries the responsibility for safely executing it.
The proclamation of an anonomous blogger that all metro streets are designed to render such a manuver “illegal” imposes no restriction on law abiding cyclists who could not possibly be aware of this blogger’s “finding”.
I guess we’ve replied too many times for me to reply back to your post, ha ha. It seems I touched a nerve.
I really don’t know what you’re talking about with my “anonymous secret finding” and then putting the word “finding” in quotation marks like I actually used that term. This isn’t a proclamation from me, I’m just trying to help you understand the Georgia driving laws that you’ve posted. And then the straw man argument you put forth that I said that “all metro streets are designed to render such a maneuver illegal.” If you can find where I said that ALL metro streets are designed in that way I’ll hand you a dollar while you’re passing me on the right.
Here, I’ll cut and paste a part of a previous post in this thread that you wrote:
(A cyclist traveling in a bicycle lane, or in a lane
wide enough for motor vehicles and bicycles to
share (see roadway position above) may pass
motor vehicles on the right, but must still take
care to avoid turning vehicles. This is allowed
since in these cases there is either provision of a
lane or sufficient width for two lines of ***MOVING*** [emphases added by me]
traffic; one of which is bicycle traffic.)
/end quote
This is the argument right here. Just because a cyclist can safely squeeze by at a light, doesn’t mean there’s enough room in the lane for two lines of MOVING traffic, no matter how many thousand times the cyclist has cut to the front of the line because they don’t like waiting at lights.
Most of the time that I see cars pass bicyclists, the car moves partially into another lane to do the pass. That indicates to me that there’s generally not enough room for both car and cyclist to ride together in the lane, at least not in the cases where the car has to move partially out of the lane.
I am a frequent bicycle commuter. My take on this issue is that, irrespective of what the law says, the vast majority of vehicles will pass me if they decide that I am moving too slow and it is possible to get by. I merely reciprocate. This isn’t an issue in the few places where there are bike lanes.
I guess using a bike box to get ahead of automobiles and then stopping at the light is better than running the light – which is what many cyclists do.
Love the idea of bike lanes and bike “boxes” anywhere in our city. Hope to see more and more bike friendly measures taken.
I don’t mind the new lanes, but they could have also widened the sidewalks instead of creating a useless wide gap between the curb and the bike lane. Already looks like a place for leaves and garbage to collect.
Also, need to keep the church folk from parking on it… that adds a whole new level of confusion and frustration.
I like the idea. I hope it’s well-executed. The most recent revision to that intersection is very confusing. The lane shift for people traveling west on Ponce is counterintuitive and not clearly marked.
The arrows show up too late and are too light. . . .
Decatur Metro,
I was just about to put a smiley face next to a comment made yesterday, but it seems to have disappeared. Am I correct about this? Was it politically incorrect that the poster connected those particular dots?
Albeit somewhat sarcastic, it did not seem like a comment worthy of moderated to me. The poster had some valid points.
What’s up?
Eh…sorry Nola, I don’t know what you’re referring to. Either it never posted or the spam filter got it. I just checked my spam (lord there’s a lot of it these days) and didn’t come up with anything posted under your name. Not sure what happened. But I certainly didn’t moderate anything you wrote.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I was not referring to a post that I made. The comment was made by someone else and I thought it brought up a reasonable question about why Ponce was chosen to be implemented now. Thus my desire to post a smiley face in response.
Ehhh…I don’t recall moderating anything in this thread.
Uh, oh Decatur Metro. It turns out the post I remembered was under the food cart topic. My bad.
I promise to not bug you again. What is lost has been found.
I was behind two bikes this morning on DeKalb/Decatur. All were doing a good job of lane sharing. At the Grady light (red), the bikes went up the side of traffic to the front of the line, and stopped. I was willing them to stay stopped, for the good of bike rider PR, but sure enough, as soon as the cross traffic cleared, and while the light was still red, they ran the red and crossed the street. I wish bikers would do more for their own cause to gain driver support!!!
im too lazy to walk down to the end of the street to check, but is it finished yet?