Parking Under the Influence
Decatur Metro | June 29, 2010 | 1:24 pmShould local zoning ordinances really require off-street parking for bars? From Straight Outta Suburbia…
…did you know that American cities usually require off-street parking at bars? To take a random example, the city of Long Beach, CA requires 20 parking spaces for every 1,000 square feet of gross floor area for “taverns”. I don’t know what the city thinks people are doing at these bars, but I assure you it’s drinking.
This is how insane our mentality is. Even bars, businesses whose sole purpose is to sell alcohol for on-site consumption, “need” off-street parking. Even though we know that people drive to them, drink, and drive home. Drink and drive. Yeah, lets make sure these people have plenty of free parking.
Bringing it home, Decatur requires its “taverns” to have one parking space for every 100 square feet of “gross floor area”. So, even if a bar WANTED to reduce people’s incentive to drive and drink, they would be stifled by our own parking requirements.
Related Posts:
-
December 3, 2007 "Love at the Pub" Needs Your Brick Store Memories (0)
-
November 30, 2011 Racktastic! (6)
-
January 31, 2012 How Would You Improve Decatur’s Wayfinding System? (44)
Setting aside the obviously flawed thinking here, how does this work in the case of pretty much every “tavern” on the square? Do they figure in city parking/decks? Or do they get a pass because they are existing structures?
The latter. Perfect example of having ordinances requiring something because it’s necessary, even though there’s built evidence to the contrary all around town.
Don’t even get me started on this topic….Grrrrr….
My husband and I have had multi-year battle with the City of Atlanta over this issue. Our venue in Midtown (Spring4th Center), which has capacity of 550 (but rarely has more than 200 people at any one time) had unbelievably expensive delays in getting licensed because we did not have a certain number of “dedicated” off-street parking spaces. We are paying thousands of dollars a year to “reserve” spaces a block away that NOBODY USES. Nobody uses those spaces because we are 1/2 block from a more convenient parking garage that is open 24/7 that all of our patrons/guests park in. So we have no problems with parking.
City ordinances on parking are a joke and have no basis in reality. And I think that’s true in many cities, not just Atlanta (or Decatur).
Stacey Day
Spring4th Center
Not related to the parking situation, but…
I absolutely love your venue and every single thing I’ve participated in at it Stacey!
I think one of the main reasons cities require off-street for any restaurant/bar is without it, surrounding residents think their streets are going to be inundated with cars and their drunk owners. Maybe this doesn’t matter around the square, but does seem to be an issue on the Dancing Goats side of town.
Oh, get real. Not everyone who goes to a tavern or bar leaves drunk. Most of us limit ourselves so we can drive — or we have a designated driver in our group.
“Real”, as in like stats? OK, from the CDC…
“In 2008, over 1.4 million drivers were arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol or narcotics.3 That’s less than one percent of the 159 million self-reported episodes of alcohol-impaired driving among U.S. adults each year.”
Not that those aren’t good statistics but they aren’t exactly relevant to your argument. The total number of DUI arrests does not prove that most people drive home drunk from the bar. A more relevant set of statistics would be how many people visited bars and what percentage of those drove home drunk. Any number greater than one is troubling but I’d bet the vast majority of people (especially in urban areas) are not driving home drunk thus making parking a necessity.
I realize that would be more relavant, but I cannot fund that survey.
However, 159 million self-reported episodes of drunk-driving is a lot, no? Does it not prove there’s a lot of drinking and driving going on? Is it that far out there to assume that much of it starts in a bar?
Since there are only 300 million people in the U.S. that sure seems like a lot to me, regardless of whether its 4.3 million people driving drunk every day for 365 days or half the U.S. population driving drunk once a year.
Undocumented drinkers…
Shuh! Next they’ll be swilling booze that real Americans could be drinking.
Those statistics are not convincing where the legal limit is 0.08%, which is way too low. Many people are arrested for being drunk even though they are considerably less impaired than the idiots with cell phones glued to their ears.
Not everyone that goes to a tavern drinks. And not everyone who drinks at a tavern gets drunk. There should be parking spaces
Parking requirements are there to reduce spillover to neighborhoods, church parking lots, etc.
Hear, hear! Also, the better statistic would be the % of the total number of people who go to taverns that end up driving drunk.
So I guess my question is: assuming that a majority of people drive to a bar, what is an acceptable percentage of people who get “drunk” to justify the promotion of driving with off-street parking?
Well, that is a bit of a trick question – assuming I get lambasted if I propose that there is an acceptable percentage of drunk drivers. Under the premise that people need to drink responsibly and not drive while drunk, I just think it is reasonable for taverns to provide some amount of parking.
Smart move JAC. I wouldn’t answer that question either!
Well, how about this? Should taverns have the same parking requirements as restaurants since it can be assumed that, on average, people consume more alcohol at a pub than a restaurant?
I can see some reasons for different parking requirements. Speaking of parking requirements in Lowcatur, I had a great meal at Garlic Thai last night (how’s that for moving on to more interesting matters!!).
OK. So, let’s say that 80% of the people who go to a tavern do drink, and 75% of those people drink enough to be above the legal limit (not much for the average person really). Shouldn’t the tavern’s parking requirements be reduced by 60%?
The idea of a tavern or pub (as opposed to a pick-up or regional bar or whatnot) is, pretty much by definition, a neighborhood business. So if it’s already part of, and catering to, a neighborhood, what is “spillover to neighborhoods”?
I know it’s a touchy issue down in LowCatur but there’s definitely a vibe around there that the street in front of a single family house is somehow an extension of that homeowner’s private property. But isn’t a public street exactly that: public? We pay a lot for infrastructure that we’re not even allowed to fully use? That seems like some seriously underutilized resources.
As Bulldog suggests, that’s the attitude that drives requirements for surface parking at every business. NIMSY: Not In My Street, Y’all. (Note that I’m not suggesting that drunken, illegal or otherwise obnoxious behavior should be tolerated. There’s clearly a difference between keepin’ the peace and parking cars.)
Had this thought this morning:
Do you think that Swanton Heights and Gateway are part of the issue in Lowcater, in that they are an isolated island right off the heart of downtown Decatur? Because of it, there are no roads at all on the south side of Ponce all the way from Ponce Place to Trinity. Hell, there’s even a fence around it so you can’t even walk through!
My point being, if there was anything like the neighborhood to the north, with streets and cross streets and such, on the south side, perhaps it would spread the car-parking wealth a bit, as with U-Joint.
Thinking a bit more about it, compared to Swanton Heights, Allen Wilson Terrace is a planning revelation. Those buildings at Allen Wilson may have been older, but I don’t think that rebuilding Allen Wilson will have as dramatic effect on downtown as redeveloping Swanton Heights in the same fashion would.
Can you imagine the change if there was just one road that cut through from Trinity to Ponce some where down by Decatur Lock and Key? Imagine, you could have a whole other retail district down there.
Good point DM. It was very poor planning indeed, but remember, it was done that way to create a wall of seperation (i.e., racial segregation) between Swanton Heights and the other neighborhoods in the area from the “undesireables” in the housing projects. Sad fact, but true, and I doubt even today many would want to change it.
You got to remember that until about 20 years ago, Decatur was still a very racist town.
Oh yes, I am aware. But only because I wrote an extensive local history of Decatur from about 1950-1980. Otherwise, I would be clueless. Thank goodness for the DeKalb History Center archives!
It’s suddenly amazing to me that we rarely ever discuss those two properties in any sort of detail, especially considering their proximity.
Where can I find this? I’d like to read.
I don’t know about a whole new business district but it would sure make bicycling between the northside and southsides of Decatur a lot easier on that side of town! I’ve tried all of the alternatives at one time or another, usually with children in tow, including getting through that fence with has multiple gates, one of which is often unlocked but one can never tell which one and it’s a long backtrack if none of them are open, and none of the routes are ideal.
P.S.: The Gateway kids all know how to cut through to Ponce and they’ve taught mine but it’s probably nothing us adults would be willing to do. It would be a green and respectful approach to make a legal, direct path from Gateway to Ponce. The fence there is definitely a remnant from a fear that subsidized housing will leak crime out into the surrounding area. Gateway is well-run, has lots of stable, long-term families, and is somehow not as subsidized as Allen Wilson Terrace and Swanton Hill homes. Rent is income-based and I know folks who pay a pretty hefty price for a simple two-bedroom. It’s a great neighborhood in terms of kids and common space to bike and play in. I think it would make sense for it to be better connected to the main community. But of course, the Gateway folks would have to weigh in. Maybe they feel safer with the fence protecting them from traffic from Ponce and it might make it easier to let kids play outside.
I think that when we discuss possible retail development of the Swanton Heights land , that it’s important to remember that many families consider Swanton Heights to be their home. Relocating entire families who have so few alternatives for the sake of building more soon-to-be empty storefronts where unnecessary trinkets and/or average food were once sold seems a little too progessive in the wrong direction.
I understand that eventually the price of land may dictate vast changes and densification in some of our downtown properties, but all of the neighborhoods which border downtown – Old Decatur, Clairemont Heights, Glennlake, Great Lakes, and Oakhurst (with its stand alone commercial district) – are an integral part of the fabric of the city as are the schools, churches (aka “places of worship), and open spaces. Finding a balance where homes, parking needs, visitor accessibility, pedestrian safety, and businesses are all fairly considered requires time and thoughtful planning.
Parking requirements, like height limits, traffic laws, building safety standards, and density limits are an attempt to secure the health, safety, and welfare for everyone in the city. By EVERYONE I mean residents, business owners and employees, and visitors.
When I visit other communities to shop or dine, I try to remember that maybe, just maybe, their privacy, parking, and quality of life come before my transient need to park in front of a house to save myself a few steps rather than park a couple of blocks away in a designated area for retail visitors and walk an extra minute. When parking in a city-owned deck near Decatur businesses and walking a block or two is too much of a hardship, perhaps it’s time to stay home.
I wasn’t suggesting relocating the families who live there, but doing something like what’s currently being built at Allen Wilson, where residents have first option to live in the new development with varied amenities.
The silver lining to these poorly planned urban renewal era developments is that they aren’t dense at ALL, and provide space for a good deal more structures than currently sits on the land. That allows for redevelopment to both accommodate current residents and create additional infrastructure that improves the offerings to the entire city.
I understand that no one likes the idea that current (now former) Decatur Housing Authority residents would be displaced; however, it has happened. Families who lived in the demolished apartments relocated and settled into new homes somewhere, hoping to find suitable schools for their children and amenities for their families. Probably few of the same families will return.
As for the density issue, the previous zoning designation was HDSF (High Density Single Family), on 8.24 acres with 200 dwelling units. This was 24 units/acre, a fairly dense designation. Remember, many of the residents are families whose children need recreation space near their apartments since they don’t have private yards in which to play. The original housing units were two-story, 1,000 square feet +/-, and provided a reasonable amount of open space outside. They were certainly dated in appearance, but to say they were poorly planned is not necessarily true, given that the low-rise apartments provided some elbow room and privacy between buildings as well as easily accessible outdoor play spaces for the children.
The new approved zoning allows for C-2 (Commercial) zoning on 3 of the acres, with 210 condominium units planned, the result being 70 units/acre. This structure will be approximately 80’ tall.
The remaining 5.24 acres are now zoned I (Institutional). The new development on this parcel includes 189 public housing units, 18 market rate dwellings, 85 units for the elderly, and 86 units in the form of apartments and townhouses. In addition to the 210 new, aforementioned condominiums, there are also 378 units in various configurations in mid-rise (45’ ht.) buildings. The apartments are also smaller than the current ones.
The total number of dwelling units on this property is planned to be 588+/-. This is a net increase of 388 units, resulting in an overall density of 70 units/acre – markedly up from 24 units/acre – a 290% density increase.
This change is not inherently good or bad. In the interest of accuracy, I would suggest that, in fact, the original Allen Wilson apartments were dense, and the new development is quantifiably denser, at least by Decatur standards. It will definitely not be as family friendly.
No, Scott. I don’t subscribe to the ridiculous acronym you suggested. And I don’t even live in “LowCatur,” as the area near the post office has been termed (I don’t understand this, either. Low, high, who cares?)
It is not unreasonable for to require adequate parking for businesses.
It’s termed “Lowcatur” because topographically it’s the lowest part of Ponce inside the city limits.
So now you know.
Highcatur is where the medical marijuana dispensary is opening in the fall.
I thought Highcatur was on the Square every weekday between 3-5p.
I didn’t say you subscribe to that belief, Bulldog; I was giving you credit for pointing out that the regulations exist because people don’t want spillover parking.
No, Bulldog, I think it is completely unreasonable to require as much parking as we do in Decatur for businesses, particularly in downtown Decatur, particularly in a community that is supposedly progressive, green, encouraging walkability, transit, biking, and other alternate forms of travel other than the almighty automobile. Can’t have it both ways – we either encourage these things, or we require an unreasonable amount of parking.
We need to understand that government zoning and regulations have consequences. Require too much parking, and we don’t get dense, walkable, mixed used development. One size does not fit all. Of course, if a business is located in a suburban environment, where the only means of getting from place to place is driving or if a business has a heavy amount of take out, etc., more parking should be required. But a bar, a tavern, where people are likely to drink and be too intoxicated to drive? That is like subsidizing drunk driving.
Let me repeat. Not everyone who goes to a tavern drinks. And not everyone who drinks at a tavern gets drunk.
So, if everyone got drunk it would be OK to get rid of the off-street parking requirement?
I’m just trying to understand how the % of people who drink is an important consideration to the larger question of whether it’s OK to require something that encourages SOME people to drink and drive.
Are the drunk drivers the necessary casualties in the effort to provide accessible parking to the sober folks?
The street may be public but the noise, litter, and public urination would be occurring right in front of a house-night after night until bar closing time. Not exactly a neighborhood kind of feeling.
I guess that’s why I made the point of saying that those things should still be regulated and enforced. The U Joint in Oakhurst, as best I can tell, has zero parking spaces and yet somehow the neighborhood survives. They even consider it an asset. Go figure.
I go to bars but I can assure you that I rarely urinate in the street.
Not all bladders are as well-behaved as yours.
It is just wrong that businesses on the square get a pass on parking spaces, and businesses off the square don’t.
RE: This fear of parking ‘spillover’ into residential streets, surely it would be better to post and enforce neighborhood parking-permit rules on those streets rather than force a business (especially a bar) to have parking if it doesn’t want to.
In an eminently walkable spot like downtown Decatur with decent residential density nearby and a MARTA station, a small business should be able to make the choice to operate without dedicated parking spaces. For people who want to avoid the kind of foot traffic and nightlife activity that comes from living in a vibrant, active city, there are plenty of private subdivisions in metro suburbs available. City like comes with traffic and noise and nighttime activity – I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Part of the problem may be that our noise isn’t really city noise. When I lived in New York City years ago, on the 8th and 32nd floors of apartment buildings, there was constant city noise, day and night, from the streets, the highways that circle Manhattan, from the sidewalks, from the subway, from the air, from inside the building. But because the noise was so constant, it was kind of a distant roar or hum that one just learned to tune out. When I moved to Los Angeles after that, I was surprised to be woken up by loud birds! So I think the problem is that Decatur is really built like a small town, not a city and not a suburb. Loud voices of people walking to their cars at 2 AM pierce the quiet in a way that’s much more disturbing than 4 airplanes, 2 helicopters, two subway lines, a highway full of honking cars and taxis, sidewalk drilling, and constant park by bumping noises all combined in a truly urban environment.
We’re trying to have the peace and quiet and family-friendliness of a small town, the greenspace of suburbia, and the density and walkability of a city. It’s not an easy mix.
I agree there has to be limits on things but why one-size-fits-all? Even in a small town, do you think people one block off Main Street (Ponce, in this case) should have the same expectations about density, activity and noise as people, say, in Great Lakes around Waddell Park? One type of expectation equals one type of living arrangement, like some kind of giant subdivision. I’m sure I’m not the only Decaturite that finds that a bit spooky.
Definitely agree that you can’t have a one-size-fits-all mentality when you are trying to make an uncommon arrangement of small town, suburban, and city living work. Problem is how you do that because you have to balance flexibility and common sense with consistancy and fairness. E.g., one neighborhood claims that the City is more concerned about noise in the Great Lakes neighborhood than in theirs. It probably takes very strategic and skillful code writing, something I know little about. And neighborhood opposition to something can be intense and the City of Decatur has a tradition of trying to be responsive. Certain neighborhoods have successfully rejected putting in sidewalks even though that seems like a no brainer to me if we really espouse the walkability, green environment values we say we do.
Agreed. I always chuckle when I hear about LowCatur folks getting riled up about potential spillover parking on their residential streets when new businesses or developments ask for parking variances. Did they not notice how close their house is to a vibrant commercial district when they bought it? Do they not enjoy being a short stroll from these businesses? Would they rather WePo be a dead zone of vacant buildings and struggling busineses so they never have to deal with an occasional car parked on the public road in front of their house?
All of us weigh the pros and cons of a property before we buy it. Do you buy the smaller house on the less traveled street or the bigger house on the busy street? Do you buy a brand-new house with potentially less maintenance or the older home with loads of character? Choosing to live within a few blocks of downtown Decatur is a similar decision – you trade off being walking distance from everything for the nuisance of having more traffic and parked cars on your street. And, assuming you want to Decatur to thrive, you have to expect the nuisance will increase somewhat over time. At least that’s what I would have thought if I’d bought a house there.
Amen, amen, amen. Having a community with all kinds of options doesn’t mean each person or each household in the community gets to have every option. It means each of us gets to select which trade-offs suit us best. And if we discover we don’t like the choice we made, e.g., those darned trains are a lot louder than we thought they’d be, then we can either make a change or else learn to appreciate the advantages and find a way to live with the nuisances.
Now now. I am so happy we have a vibrant community, but when we moved to Decatur 24 years ago, this spillover problem was not a problem. Now it’s hard to get out of my own driveway during a major event. Our streets are narrow. I try not to get upset, because I want people to safely walk to their cars on the sidewalk and I’m all for available parking,but I think these are not Decatur residents, these are our abundant visitors who are Decatur-wanna bes, surbanites who are used to taking up the whoel road when they park with their giant SUVs. SHEESH. It’s a problem, lowcatur, upcater, what-ever-cater. We need enforcement!
I remember back during the heat of the 315 debate, I asked the neighborhood why they wouldn’t just accept better parking enforcement as an option to remedy the parking issue.
After a long period of dead silence, which was probably eventually broken by a reasoned comment from Baron or Fifi, it came out that they simply didn’t trust the city to keep up with it.
It is what it is I suppose, but it sure would be nice if we could remedy this.
Got to give credit where credit is due – City is trying to do a better job with enforcement. Usually it takes a call from a neighbor but they have been coming out to give parking tickets on Fairview & Northern .
I still wish the City could hire some parking enforcement people. Giving parking tickets is not and should not be a priority for police officers. ( The ambassadors – or whatever they are called – Jeremiah, Alma & Co – work only around the Square.) People will pay more attention to the parking regulations if they know it is VERY likely they will be ticketed for illegal parking.
In addition we need some sort of trolley or shuttle bus that runs frequent regular routes at peak times from available deck parking to restaurants and shops . This was discussed at length during roundtable groups. Not sure if this should be City funded, shop/restaurant sponsored or a combination of both. I realize that the decks are not City owned but they need to have much better signage. I tell people about the county deck and they have no idea how to get there.
ROFLMAO.
Harupa,
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you are a fairly new resident of Decatur, Perhaps it would surprise you to know that we have people living in “lowcater” who have been here since the stretch between Sharian and the post office was lined with residential houses.
I myself chuckle when someone chooses to post an extremely simplistic view of a situation when they seem to have no historical knowledge of the area. Where is the line? What happens when one block off becomes two.. hell, I bet some of those houses on Clairemont would make charming little shops.
How about a little compassion and concern for your neighbors (some of whom have lived here for more than 50 years) happiness as well as respect for their right to question when enough might be enough – without being called a NIMBY, planet-killing commie.
Stacy – amen to that.
Here’s a bit of that historical perspective –
commercial neighbors of 25 yrs ago for LowCatur
Pico camper trailer store (Hot Yoga, Fleet Feet, scooter store)
gospel radio station (Dancing Goat)
Don Davis Gulf (Taqueria)
Century 21 realty
Decatur Lock & Key
Sharian
Lephardt Chevrolet (CVS)
Southern Star ( CVS)
Thumbs Up (Cakes & Ale)
Meier & Berkeley Jewelers (Cafe Lily)
Maud Baker Florist (Sawicki’s)
Marguerite Smith Cleaners (Heliotrope)
dry cleaner – can’t remember the name ( Taco Mac)
florist – can’t remember the name (Natalie’s Fish House)
Chinese buffet restaurant – don’t want to remember the name (Sushi Ave)
Decatur Travel
Everything closed by 7pm. Thumbs Up was open for dinner a few nights of the week. I can’t say we considered this area “vibrant ” but it certainly wasn’t a “dead zone of vacant buildings”.
Fifi, thanks for that. I never got to enjoy the Southern Star though I hear it was awesome. At least we still have Evans, though, it’s not in the City limits (casts eyes down rhetorically, “I wonder why?”) I doubt many would rather have the camper place than the Yoga studio (unless, perhaps you are wanting to buy coffee at a bad time), but as someone once sagely pointed out in the 80s when a lot of these wheels were first set in motion, (to paraphrase) – the real challenge will be in knowing when to stop.
We seem to be on a trend of reduced diversity of business in the City. There are a lot of folks who will be fine with our development thus far — it’s certainly made many people a lot of money — but I think one of the big questions that is surfacing in each of these kinds of discussions on DM is whether our growth model is delivering the overall quality of life that some residents have grown to expect living here. I, personally, would like to believe that a community like Decatur which prides itself as a progressive, forward-thinking City can do better than rue de restaurante, boutique boulevard, and pub promenade. But, time will tell and pressure only mounts as we seem to keep finding more and more ways to spend money and find less and less ways to NOT be Va-Hi with schools and a nice rec center. Maybe that’s what “we” want, I dunno.
The other concern I have is that we also seem to be developing a real identity crisis with each passing year. Some of this can be expected as people come and go, the economy fluctuates, businesses change… “things change” … and we move on. Decatur is a really a geographically small area of people (4.4 sq mi), but there is clearly a growing disconnect between in terms of what they seem to want from their community. In that sense, I don’t envy the challenges faced by City leadership, but there’s also a “be careful what you wish for” factor here, too.
What is perhaps most troubling to me as I scan thru the posts – on this thread and others – is the growing lack of empathy for neighbors who are affected by these decisions. No matter how the chats start out, it always seems to converge on lazy caricature (NIMSY, that’s a new one for me) or strawmen (“oh right, I forgot, those backward idiots want a city for CARS”), or just outright ridiculous (“Yea, ‘they’ obviously didn’t think about where they were buying next to that commercial district!”). It leaves me wondering if the mudthrowers on here and elsewhere ever stop and take a moment to understand that the process is constructed to operate a certain way. Hint: that way is NOT huggy-kissy and roses. Hint, again: It’s not. Rhetorical extra credit question: why do you think the City removed itself from the appellate process and pushed the appeals to Superior Court?
Even so, they’re BIG decisions and they have BIG impacts. 4 square miles is tight, and every tweak, variance, approval, and denial is very likely coming at someone else’s expense. And, believe it or not, most of us actually get that. We learn a lot and things take on a slightly different hue after a man has sat in the bathroom for hours feverishly scrubbing the tire marks off his forehead trying to figure out “What the hell just happened at that meeting?”
Beyond all the name-calling, the fundamental issue at hand here seems to be that you can’t strive to be a more walkable community with the current parking requirements in place.
And one of the goals out of the Strategic Plan seems to indicate that a majority of participants are concerned about walkability…
The Alternative Transportation Community: In the meetings, citizens were clear that they want to be able to move around Decatur in ways other than driving. Basically, they wanted to be able to walk, ride bikes or take transit as easily as – or maybe more easily than – driving an automobile. They had numerous suggestions for making alternative transportation easier.
And of course there’s also an element of preserving Decatur’s “small town” charm.
So, we need to have an OPEN conversation about this with all parties at the table. Yes, the residents around Lowcatur (sorry, I don’t see the negative connotation and no other name was sticking) may be more directly affected by a revised parking ordinance (either positively or negatively), but regardless of where you live and how long you’ve lived here, everyone’s opinion is of equal weight.
“Beyond all the name-calling, the fundamental issue at hand here seems to be that you can’t strive to be a more walkable community with the current parking requirements in place.”
Actually, no. I spoke pretty directly to what I see are the fundamental issues. Parking may be what your post was about, perhaps, but it is hardly the root issue at hand. The comments in this post and many others of a similar nature reveal that quite clearly. It’s fine if you don’t want to discuss it, it’s your blog after all, but avoiding it doesn’t mean it will go away.
“And one of the goals out of the Strategic Plan seems to indicate that a majority of participants are concerned about walkability…”
I’ll bet the majority of participants are worried about “green” and “sustainability,” and “active living,” too. “Aging in-place” is a nice one. Everyone loves the trendy buzzwords – especially in big public meetings. But when you actually have to implement these things, that’s where it gets difficult. But again, I guess that’s not really germane?
By the way, since when were these things mutually exclusive…? Since when does supporting one ideology mean you must absolutely NOT support another? This is an ecosystem which demands balance, not something you just change because a meeting made you feel all nice in your heart.
“The Alternative Transportation Community: In the meetings, citizens were clear that they want to be able to move around Decatur in ways other than driving. Basically, they wanted to be able to walk, ride bikes or take transit as easily as – or maybe more easily than – driving an automobile. They had numerous suggestions for making alternative transportation easier.”
This is great. Really – it is. I love the Zip cars. I love the fact that we embraced Marta at the center of our town when it was new. I love when I see the bicycle cabby zoom past our street corner. But do we honestly believe that Decatur reducing parking is going to have a ripple effect on the realities of life outside of 30030? Easier isn’t going to make a bit of difference… Easier is for us. CONVENIENT is for them and those two are not the same thing.
One of two things will happen, probably a little of both: either people will park up our streets or they’ll take their business somewhere else. I bet there’s plenty of parking on the West End near all the restaurants, shoppes, and boutiques there. I just don’t see people on their way home from Atlanta to Stone Mountain one night that wanna come by and pick up dinner from Sawicki’s or Farmburger when they have 3 parking spaces to share — or park 3 blocks into the neighborhood and walk.
“So, we need to have an OPEN conversation about this with all parties at the table.”
I’m really just kind of confused the meaning of this statement. Are City meetings closed? DM a non-open discussion, or are all parties not at the table?
“Yes, the residents around Lowcatur (sorry, I don’t see the negative connotation and no other name was sticking) may be more directly affected by a revised parking ordinance (either positively or negatively), but regardless of where you live and how long you’ve lived here, everyone’s opinion is of equal weight.”
So, it’s your position, then, that it sucks to be the one getting reamed for the greater good, but one should just pick up the soap and carry on like big a boy — and perhaps next time try harder to stay clean and out of the shower…?
That sure doesn’t feel like equal weight, to me. It sounds like two wolves and a sheep hopping on their Segway to meet up for a nice organic, farm-to-table pub crawl and dinner. Perhaps there’s a WordPress plugin that intercepts posts with “Gee, maybe there’s a problem over there by the Post Office?” and replaces them with “I have to laugh everytime one of ‘those people’ starts whining about parking again. Get over it.”
That’s an interesting perspective, because that would seem to fly in the face of Scott’s ideals elsewhere in this thread about localized zoning. The irony is not lost on me, by the way, that the /one/ neighborhood who enjoys walkability to all of these places — Farmburger, Watershed, Dancing Goats, The Marlay, The Taqueria del Sol, The thai place that I can’t think of right now, Sawickis, Cakes and Ale, Chocolate Bar, Ruby Tuesday, Taco Mac, Ted’s, Pastries a Go Go, Thai Bowl, Mellow Mushroom, Sushi Avenue, Nathalies Fish House, Café Lily… not to a handful boutique stores, a yoga studio, a post office, a scooter shop, a drug store, … The *one neighborhood* who has walkability to all these things… who knows what walkability is. And what it means. Is the one getting lectured at when they get on here and say “Hey, umm… I not so sure that’s a good idea?” and labeled as backward, car-loving zealots who want to keep Decatur in the dark ages?
HAH!! No, it’s not lost on me at all.
Decatur is no different than any other “small town” where everyone’s opinion is created with equal weight but some opinions are more equal than others.
To believe otherwise is näive.
[EOL]
For DM (I don’t actually have the option to reply to the correct comment)
What is walkability?
Is it making the streets wider, cleaner and more inviting for those who would like the option to walk around our city?
Is it the process of us saying “we only want people coming into the City of Decatur who are coming without a car.” ?
Does walkability only concern Decatur residents, or is it something that applies to everyone who would like to do shop, eat or drink here?
Is it encouraging people who live within say, a mile of downtown Decatur to leave their cars at home and walk when they head to the square?
I am certain that many people when asked would say that “walkability” is an issue – what I am most interested in is exactly what their definition of walkability is.
If we aren’t all talking about the same thing, it does not matter if 100% of us agree on it. How does our City government define walkability, and exactly what is the correlation between walkability and parking.
Fifi, Baron, and Stacy– thank you all for your perspectives. You’ve all made excellent points, and in a way that makes me resolve to think before I get flip in my assessments of my neighbors’ gripes & perceptions (regardless of which part of Decatur they’re commenting from).
Baron– you, in particular: Brotha, you laid it down old-school. Propers!
Oh dear. I know that when someone says “…it’s your blog…” I’ve struck the wrong tone.
First things first, when I mentioned that every opinion counts equally, I was only referencing the couple of comments that seemed to argue that a long-time resident deserved a louder say than a newbie.
And I certainly wasn’t saying to suck it up and take your medicine. That’s why I said “either positively or negatively”. I was only acknowledging your vested interest. Don’t forget that some people believe that denser development would actually be a positive thing for your neighborhood. It certainly has helped your real estate values.
Onto other things.
So, the fundamental issue isn’t parking (though it is the arrow in your quiver and the thing that actually unites the neighborhood.). So is it “Livable Growth”? If so, what exactly is that? Because right now the argument seems to fight for the status quo, or some sort of height restrictions, and all that seems to have done is create a West Ponce that you don’t sound particularly fond of. I’d like some more basic services – like the ones Fifi mentioned – downtown too, but I don’t see how they’re possible if we make land insanely rare by disallowing folks to build on a majority of their land and on more than two floors.
Buzzwords are great, yes. But I am clearer on how you create a “green”, “sustainable”, “active” community than one where we “stop” development.
Also, there’s the whole issue a financial solvency and how there isn’t currently enough commercial to keep residential taxes reasonable into the future. Help me see the alternative.
Harpua –
City ordinances exist to enforce standards that we as a city have agreed upon. Variances should be given only in rare cases involving true hardship. I believe Decatur gives too many variances – both parking and zoning related. If our parking regs are no longer appropriate then the City Commissioners should take the necessary steps ( including public dialogue) to make changes. In the meantime, business owners, home owners and developers should manage to build/live within the current laws. (not only along “WePo” but all over the city)
There’s a bit more to the traffic issues in our area than the occasional car parked in front of a house. The short stroll to our vibrant commercial district is not so enjoyable when you are in serious danger of being hit by a driver running stop signs and/ or making a fast, reckless turnaround in your neighbor’s driveway in order to snag a parking spot near Taqueria or Farm Burger . Too many of the visitors to our downtown businesses are oblivious to pedestrians in the area.
As far as whether or not the residents of “LowCatur ” want Decatur to thrive – let me assure you that we DO. Many of us have been here for a LONG time. We know all about the trade offs involved in balancing commercial development and residential quality of life. We were part of the first Decatur round table discussions. We are the people who helped articulate the vision that became the current strategic plan. That plan ( and our many years of ever increasing property tax payments) gave you the Decatur of today.
Several points: first, don’t all Decatur condo owners or renters have 1 or 2 guaranteed parking spaces? And then some common area for guests? A fair amount of the houses off West Ponce have either no or limited off-street parking. Those folks just want to be able to park their own cars reasonably near their homes. Since more retired folks are moving into this neighborhood, this even touches the issue of supporting diversity in Decatur neighborhoods.
The 2008 zoning hearing for 315 W. Ponce revealed that a lot of us in this neighborhood moved in 20-25-30 years ago, when the businesses on Ponce were few and fairly quiet. Nobody staggered off drunk from Sharian’s Rugs, one of Decatur’s oldest and finest. Taqueria was the old Davis BP, a wonderful business, and they never blocked Fairview with their customers. I can’t name a soul who isn’t happy that Decatur’s business scene has improved, but these Decatur residents still are trying to have that reasonably comfortable neighborhood while living near these new businesses. As Oakhurst Village businesses grow, those neighbors may find this an important issue.
[edited]
Re some West Ponce area homes not having their own off-street parking: I did not know that. This is why Iike the civil discourse on this blog. You learn things about which you had faulty assumptions. It never occurred to me that overflow downtown parking would result in some folks not being able to park near their home, especially at night. That doesn’t mean I espouse one solution or another but I understand better the NIMBY attitude. For a mercifully short time, I had horribly noisy, nasty, scarily angry neighbors on the side of my house where all the bedrooms are. They were not there when I selected my home, talked to neighbors about the ambience, and moved in. It is hell on earth to feel uncomfortable in one’s own home. And just up and selling is not so easy when it’s one’s main asset in life and/or the housing market is spiralling downward. Even legal recourse is time-consuming, expensive, and emotionally debilitating.
Re posters with vested issues: You can guess who someone is and their bias but it’s not cool to out them if they choose to be anonymous. That’s part of the anonymous blog model. Blog readers have to keep in mind the limitations of lightly censored anonymous postings. Blogs are not news media like Decatur Metro Online is. On the other hand, I find certain postings like school lockdowns, upcoming events, traffic accidents, new business openings, etc. to be pretty reliable and that’s the real reason I check the blog frequently. I have actually gotten my first notice of a tornado warning for Decatur from this blog!
On the other hand, you are always allowed to out your self. Some choose to post anonymously (makes it harder for your descendents to trace you years from now) and others do not.
“Blogs are not news media like Decatur Metro Online is. “
Oh PLEASE elaborate on this.
Actually, I don’t know. What’s the definition of news media? What’s a blog? Is a blog supposed to be objective? I know it’s edited to remove personal attacks but what other quality control is there? Should we all be presenting our credentials and biases for posts? I assumed that it’s buyer beware on any blog, actually anything on the Internet, but one just learns from experience to trust one site more than another. I find Decatur Metro pretty reliable on events and fact-based reports but I didn’t think it came with any guarantee of objectivity.
This is not my area of expertise and I defer to all who know something about electronic media.
Technically, a “blog” is really nothing more than a format. The writing can really take any form.
It sounds like your talking about both my posts and the comments collectively. It’s certainly your right to take whatever you’d like with a grain of salt, but know that I personally do my best to keep things as factually accurate as possible on my end. And often times commenters are better informed than me. By trying to keep it primarily about the issues, it really doesn’t matter what a person’s motive is, since it usually boils down to the validity of the argument, not who you are and what interests you serve.
You’re right that your opinion should be based on experience with a site, especially online. And I’d like to think that my record and recognition stands for itself.
As for objectivity, I think there is a place for it, but I personally believe that a strict religious devotion to it is actually part of the old, one way, model of news media and it isn’t all that necessary anymore. As long as I’m not silencing voices or outright lying, I think most people are fine with knowing (and may even welcome knowing) that I have opinions just like everyone else.
As long as people have a way of responding and weighing in, it’s not all that necessary that I represent all sides of a story in a non-objective way. We all do that in a much more entertaining and engaging way. Also, using this method of discussion, I have much less control of the story (I don’t pick and choose quotes from opposing sides) making it, in many ways, MORE objective than a traditional news story.
I don’t let my opinions effect reporting on important stories, and on other stuff, I’m pretty sure that’s where ALL media shows its bias, whether it claims objectivity or not. That’s impossible to avoid.
As for sponsorship, I go out of my way to be as up-front with that as possible. Most “traditional” news media is much shadier about that than I.
Ha! You just thread-jacked on your own blog!
Oh my! Communications snafu maybe?
(1) Looks like karass meant Decatur NEWS Online which IS more newspaper like ( & also quite excellent in its offerings.)
(2) karass doesn’t come off as criticizing the Decatur Metro format. Heck, she shows her love for it daily with her well thought out comments!
It’s the whole dang Decatur Metro thing!- posts, comments, and you weighing in right along with us- that makes this a must read for us all! I ‘ve learned so much stuff on here. I’m pretty sure it’s helped me to get better at carefully considering other folks’ perspectives. (I also wonder if there’s a full moon effect that makes some of us a bit feisty on here at times! :0)
Yes, I goofed and typed “Decatur Metro Online” when I meant to type “Decatur News Online” The latter appears to me to be more of a news format with some incidental blogs. But I’m coming to see that format and content are two different issues. A “news” format can potentially be quite biased and unobjective and a blog format can have objective reporting in it. My real point to Nan, and I may not have made it well, was that I thought that this blog respects people’s anonymity so we shouldn’t be outing people even if we are pretty darn sure we’ve figured out or know through the grapevine who they are. That anonymity makes it hard to identify what biases folks are bringing to their posts but I thought any Internet communication is kind of “buyer beware”.
I have found Decatur Metro, In Decatur, and Decatur News Online to be extremely useful, enjoyable, and timely sources of information, regardless of whether they are always objective. Because the content of Decatur Metro changes the most frequently, it’s the one I check the most frequently. The most important feature for me is the breaking news aspect–during school lockdowns, snowstorms, tornado siren warnings, traffic accidents and a few other events, I got the best news, early on, here. Even if the information was incomplete and based on comments, it was more than I could get from any other source, including calling official sources. The second most important feature is that I learn facts and perspectives about Decatur that I wouldn’t learn by just talking to my usual circle of contacts who tend to hang out where I do and think a lot like me. There’s been a ton of “aha!” moments. Plus a BUNCH of new restaurants that I might not have found until months later without this blog. My unfavorite thing about DM is the snarkiness, which I realize is much, much, much less that most blogs and is well-moderated. But with my gullibility and thin-skin, I’ve felt totally wounded several times and had to remember that online comments aren’t softened by tone of voice, gestures, and the back and forth banter of real-time conversation.
OK, I think that I got a bit confused by your use of the word “posts” to describe comments. My apologies for the rant, but I can get a bit worked up about this sort of thing…though I’ve tried to dial it back a lot recently!
As for your assertion that people have the right to remain anonymous, I agree. I’m editing the offending posts and pulling out all identifiers.
[edited]
Karass, I have to admit that I don’t know much about blogging, having done little of it, but I appreciate the info.
We might all work together better to sustain Decatur if we left terms like “LowCatur” out of these discussions. That stuff really doesn’t help different parts of the city to work together for the common good.
I, for one, didn’t realize that “LowCatur” might be negatively perceived. I thought it was sort of clever like “SoHo” and more phonetic than the also-used “WestPo”.
Me either. What’s wrong with Lowcatur?
So why don’t we just all stop thinking and having opinions and changing and creating at all lest it offends someone? God knows, I would rather live in Stepford and start banning language than risk offending a single person…
People are using these phrases to differentiate among different parts of town, period. Not like what was meant when people used to call the south Decatur area “the other side of the tracks”. And don’t say they didn’t. I was here then and my little ears heard it.
True that, nelliebelle. I must admit though that I just think lowcatur is kind of… Well, in a word, dumb… I don’t even get what it means, exactly… Wepo or whatever it was I could at least figure out what they were talking about, but I find the concept of low rather hard to get my head around. Oh well, I just have another word for it: home.
I kinda of think is dumb too, but hey, I am not going to vote to ban it for dumbness.
A lot of things would get banned in this world if we just used that reason.
Well, OK, hw about for lameness, then? Can we ban it for lameness? No? (‘Cause I can see your point about lots of things getting banned just for being dumb or lame, so…) Then, for what seems the best reason (as Deanne said), that the commenters who actually live there really don’t like it? I have to admit it strikes me as slightly “looking-down-the-nose:, and I don’t live there…
I do get that part, and I agree when it’s put in that context!
People call me all sorts of things–doesn’t mean “I take them to heart.”
Maybe they prefer HIGHlands Jr.?
I agree. LowCatur should be phased out on this site.
Can’t you see the negative connotation? Might make some feel inferior.
Why don’t we call it what it is – Decatur.
Well, now, I thought I smelled some mighty fine organic hamburgers and fish taco’s a cookin’ and turns out it was just my ears. Thanks for the shout out, DM.
Scott, about your “individualized” approach (versus the one-size-fits-all)…. That sounds like an interesting idea worth exploring more, how would such a process be implemented?
Some interesting points always come up during any debate about parking.
Quoting Darin “For people who want to avoid the kind of foot traffic and nightlife activity that comes from living in a vibrant, active city, there are plenty of private subdivisions in metro suburbs available. City like comes with traffic and noise and nighttime activity – I wouldn’t have it any other way.”
This argument comes up almost every time. Many long term residents moved to Decatur to escape suburbia, the appeal of Decatur was that it still felt like a small intown neighborhood without the hubub of buckhead or midtown – I moved here in 1985 raised two children here and have been extremely satisfied with my community. In fact, a good part of that enjoyment over the years has been this combination of a quiet, friendly neighborhood close to a city. Maybe this all comes down to how many bars, boutiques and gift shops you can walk to and the “more is better” attitude, but one of each has always been more than enough for me.
I would ask Darin : Why would you want to move to a place like Decatur and turn it into another area like VaHi or Buckhead? If nightlife if what you want – why not move where it already exists?
Decatur has been “walkable” as long as I have lived here and as much as I enjoy being able to walk to Cakes & Ale now I also used to enjoy walking up to the Southern Star.
All change comes with a price and I don’t understand why these threads always have to descend into name calling when someone points out that they are not sure that a particular change has a price worth paying.
I’m honestly curious who so many people who feel that Decatur needs to be changed radically decided to move here in the first place?
I know what you mean Stacy and you make a good point. My wife and I were living in ViHi near the Dark Horse when our son was born. We moved to get away from what I called “The party.” We wanted to live in a walkable urban area without having to dodge discarded beer bottles on the sidewalk (and that’s the only zone of ViHi we could afford).
My statement was worded badly. I didn’t mean that noisy nightclub action is a necessity in a city, just that, in a wonderfully urban, mixed-use place like downtown Decatur and in areas of midtown Atlanta, a person can’t expect to avoid the occasional unpleasantness that comes from daily and nightly activity the same way you would in a single-zoned suburban area where zoning strictly detaches residents.
I certainly don’t think Decatur should change to be more like any other area and I wouldn’t wish a noisy party scene on any neighborhood.
Darin,
I have lived in the neighborhood behind the now taqueria del sol since 1992 (I was on Superior prior to that) and I have to say than in my humble opinion the only thing this neighborhood would needs is a long term development strategy that would put the needs of residents ahead of the transient needs of “the party”. I can happily deal with the fact that once or twice a year (beerfest etc) I can’t move my car because if I do I won’t be able to get anywhere near my own home when I return. If it makes me a NIMSY to think that I should be able to park my car within 2 blocks of my own home the majority of the time – so be it. I’m not the only house in this neighborhood without off street parking, and no, we do not currently have any “residents only” rules on Oakland or Wilton.
This is in response to several other posters in this thread: I personally don’t think the city needs any more nightlife. Unless the vast majority of patrons for a particular business are local you can talk about walkability, alternative transport and green all you want – people are still driving their cars into Decatur and they are going to need a place to park them. The more bars and pubs we have the more we actually rely on non residents driving into Decatur to keep them open. We seem to be creating something in direct opposition to sustainable, green and walkable.
As usual, I’m learning whle reading that there’s more to the issue than I realized. It’s not just about fostering walkability, discouraging auto traffic, and parking on residential streets, but also about the character of our downtown. I imagine that folks without off-street parking in the West Ponce residential neighborhoods could live with occasional invasions of visitors parking on their street to attend the Decatur Book Festival or even more regular parkers going to shop at a nearby bookstore or coffeeshop that closes at 9 PM but many are worried about a Virginia Highland-like atmosphere with people coming and leaving in a party mood until the wee hours of the morning. That sounds like a reasonable concern for a residential neighborhood that has been in Decatur as long as most of downtown. You don’t have to be anti-walkability, anti-alternative transportation, anti-limited parking to be concerned about noise, partying, and litter in an neighborhood full of families and retired folks.
I think there should be a series about stupid Decatur zoning codes that most everyone agrees should be changed, but no one ever seems to get around to doing anything about it.
It’s a shame that our current zoning codes would make it illegal today to build the buildings and operate the businesses that surround our historic courthouse square, but it does.
Be wary of unintended consequences. A bar with no parking might actually result in more drunk driving, as those too drunk to drive are reluctant to leave their vehicles overnight parked in the street, opposed to parked in a proper spot at the bar where they were drinking.
One solution could be to have resident parking only on residential streets near commercial areas. This is done throughout Chicago and probably other cities I’m not aware of. If the businesses don’t have enough parking on their own, they won’t have any patrons utilizing their services and thus will cease to be in business.
I believe that the residential streets north of Ponce are already resident only parking, are they not?
Some may be, but I don’t think most are.
How do you reconcile that with a small downtown area where physical space is a finite resource? How many of us really favor a measure that potentially stifles the independent businesses we claim to cherish, so that people living nearby get to have nobody parking on the PUBLIC street in front of their houses? I’d like it a lot better if the MARTA bus didn’t stop in front of my house, but (1) the bus stops were there when I bought the place, (2) many of my neighbors depend on the bus service to get around, and (3) public transit options are good for the community in myriad ways. So I can either move out to the country where there are no MARTA buses, or put up with it in exchange for the many benefits of living where I do.
Or MARTA can just cut service and the bus route and problem solved.
Or you can chain a couple of old bikes to your curb.
LOL! You wouldn’t happen to be that dude on Adair, wouldja?
Ha ha. I completely forgot about that guy. I didn’t even know what the deal was with that until I started reading this site. I learn so much here really.
If only our cities were designed for every bar to have ample parking for their guests. Wonder if NYC has this requirement?
NYC has very few parking requirements for Manhattan and most of Brooklyn.
If it’s too inconvenient to park in an available deck and walk a few blocks to consume adult beverages, then maybe demand exists for a drive-in tavern.
<<>>
Andrew Jackson couldn’t have said it better about the Indians who used to live around here.
Lordy, this is such a long comments trail that I have lost track. But I have to respond to something said about promoting walkability. IMO, one way to promote walkability is to walk.
Seems dumb for folks to have to debate a 3 WEEK OLD “lowcatur” nickname that popped up in a reader’s comment! DM commenters rock- but they don’t rule!
The neighbors are point blank saying that they object to the “lowcatur” identifier. The “Decatur” thing to do is to respect their wishes & let it go!
Live there–don’t mind it–better than WePo IMHO. Every time I trudge up the hill to get to the Square I feel like I live in Lowcatur.
Round and Round Downs?
Dancing Marley Farm?
Watergoat Creekside?
Scooter Elephant Place?
Post Office Palisades?
Surely we can come up with a name if Lowcatur doesn’t suit.
Foggy Bottom?