Homeless Encampment Found on Decatur Square
Decatur Metro | July 9, 2009 | 9:16 amAlex writes in…
Met up with some friends at Eddie’s last night. I left a little past 11, walked across the Square to go home and was stunned to find an encampent of homeless people who had made their beds for the night, right there on the Square, just beside the ‘steaming’ children’s statue.
There were seeral adults, two of whom were stretched out on the benches, covered in blankets, catching their z’s. As I glanced to the right, I saw a stroller. Oh lawd.
I called the police non-emergency number and the dispatcher seemed to be confused about what I told her. When I told her that the folks were camped out by the children’s statue on the square, she paused and then asked if I had an address for that. I got a bit flustered and said, “Well, it’s where Sycamore dead-ends…..you know, The Square!”
She kept trying to put it together and I kept wondering how much more clear I could be than “the square”. But, true to form, Decatur PD arrived in about 10 minutes, asked a lot of questions and moved them along.
I’m not even sure what to say about this. Things must be getting pretty bad out there if people haven taken to sleeping in well-lit, well-patroled areas.
Maybe it’s safer to sleep in a well-lit, well-patrolled area?
Exactly what I was about to say, Len.
Alex might have helped alleviate the confusion by citing the name of a business that’s in that piece of Sycamore, like one of the restaurants.
Good point. I would assume when your in this situation that you have to walk the line between getting “moved along” by the authorities and feeling relatively safe.
Not really sure why this required police involvement.
Really EB? Why? What do you think should have been done?
I think Alex acted appropriately.
Me either.
Whoops- reply ended up wrong. I am not sure why people sleeping peacefully on a bench in a public required the police
Because it’s illegal.
Okay, J, you are right.
Sec. 86-21. Urban camping and improper use of public spaces.
(a) Definitions.
(1) Camp shall mean residing in or using a public street, sidewalk or park for private living accommodations, such as erecting tents or other temporary structures or objects providing shelter; sleeping in a single place for any period of time exceeding 60 minutes; regularly cooking or preparing meals; or other similar activities.
(2) Storing personal property shall mean leaving one’s personal effects, such as, but not limited to, clothing, bedrolls, cookware, sleeping bags, luggage, knapsacks or backpacks unattended for any period of time exceeding one hour. This term shall not include parking a bicycle or other mode of transportation.
(3) Public park includes all municipal parks, public playgrounds, public plazas, attractions and monuments.
(4) Public street includes all public streets and highways, public sidewalks, public benches, public parking lots and medians.
(b) Public parks. It shall be unlawful to camp or to store personal property in any park owned by the city.
(c) Public streets. It shall be unlawful to camp, to store personal property or to sit or to lie down on any public street as defined above.
(d) Other public property blocking ingress and egress. It shall be unlawful to camp, to store personal property or to sit or to lie down on any public property so as to interfere with ingress or egress from buildings.
(e) Warning. No person may be arrested for violation of this section until he or she has received a written warning and has been given an opportunity to cease the unlawful conduct. If, after receiving such warning and opportunity, a person fails to comply with the warning, he or she is subject to arrest for violation of this section.
(f) Exceptions. Notwithstanding anything in this section to the contrary, this section shall not apply to nor be construed to prohibit the following behavior:
(1) Persons sitting or lying down as a result of a medical emergency;
(2) Persons sitting in wheelchairs while using parks, sidewalks or other public places;
(3) Persons sitting down while attending parades for which valid permits have been issued;
(4) Persons sitting down while patronizing outdoor cafes;
(5) Persons sitting down, lying down or napping while attending performances, festivals and concerts taking place in any park, street or sidewalk;
(6) Persons sitting on chairs or benches supplied by a public agency or abutting private property owner;
(7) Persons sitting on seats in bus zones occupied by people waiting for the bus;
(8) Persons sitting or lying down while waiting in an orderly line outside a box office to purchase tickets to any sporting event, concert, performance, other special event;
(9) Persons sitting or lying down while waiting in an orderly line awaiting entry to any building, including shelters, or awaiting social services, such as provision of meals; or
(10) Children under the age of 13 years sleeping in parks, or sleeping anywhere else while being carried by an accompanying person or while sitting or lying in a stroller or baby carriage.
For better or for worse, Decatur has an ordinance against public camping. Sleeping in public spaces, non-recreationally (a hazy distinction, fo sho), falls under it.
Which is all to say, don’t blame our fine officers. It’s a code issue.
By the way, if you are ever board at work, the city municipal code is an interesting read
Here’s an idea….why don’t those of you who see nothing wrong with this offer your backyards to these folks?
I’ll second that. Just post your address here and we will direct the urban outdoors-men to your home.
You first, Frances … seeing as how you’ve staked out the “I care more than you” moral high ground.
I would hope the police gave the homeless people information about (and a ride to) whatever facilities (private or public) that are available to help.
You know what, this is an issue where many of us are really going to disagree vehemently to no end other than irritating each other, so let’s not start a snark war. I wouldn’t have called the cops on people sleeping on public land. Someone else would. It IS illegal, so I can’t argue with that anymore than I can argue that I should be able to keep a pig or hog in direct violation of section 14-6 of the city municipal code.
It boils down what I think is acceptable versus what you think and arguing this type of point doesn’t do anything but cause hard feelings.
Ohh, don’t get me going about hogs. Then we’ll really have a flame war.
(How I hate emoticons, but must occasionally admit their utility.)
I really want a hog. Damn this city.
It also boils down to public versus private space. What you you suggest Gary is ridiculous because they should never be in my back yard, because it’s mine. They have the right to be on the square because it’s theirs, and yours, and mine, and all of ours. Now if they are breaking the law, then yes they should be moved along. But c’mon, you don’t have to be so snarky just because some people have compassion for those less fortunate.
Ahhh… we finally found a good use for the Marta Plaza. Our new city slogan, Decatur, home of the homeless! I await the huddled masses. Perhaps a small statue of liberty placed where Scott and Ponce divide to lead the wretched [edited] to our shore.
All in Decatur lift your lamp now!
Right, but there are sensible ordinances about what you’re allowed to do in a public place like the square so that it can be enjoyed by the public. For instance, if I were to walk down the square, boom box on my shoulder, with the Pixies cranked to 11, I’d be told to turn it down. I have a right to be there, but not to crank “Gouge Away” for everybody to enjoy. I hope it’s pretty obvious why having folks camped out on teh square is a bad idea.
But if you were cranking the Indigo Girls then it would probably be OK. This is Decatur, after all.
Personally, I would support an exception to the noise ordinance specifically to allow the blasting of “Gouge Away.” One of my favorite Pixies songs.
and quit apropos lyrics: “stay all day, if you want to, la la la.”
Right TOK, that’s what I said – if they are breaking the law, enforce it. Of course we don’t want the square to turn into a 5 Points-like defacto homeless shelter.
My point was to point out how goofy Gary’s comment was.
Not to put too fine a point on it but the edited word is same one that’s on the statue of liberty. Good enough for her but too non-pc for Decatur. It is to laugh. Slowly and sadly.
“Decatur” didn’t edit it, I did. Regardless, I’m sure the Decatur of 1886 would have been fine with it.
And clever insults are still insults last I checked.
Well said metro guy but the Statue of Liberty reference isn’t even clever. He’s confusing immigration with homelessness. Homeless people are mostly US citizens, who have equal rights to Mr. I Pay High Decatur Taxes.
Well now I’m really confused. I was using my knee jerk reaction to the Marta Plaza to make fun of Decatur’s knee jerk tendency to try to be Berkeley on the Ponce.
I never really thought that DM would try to erase history in the name of peoples feelings. Slippery slope that.
I can sympathize with the “public space” argument, and also the empathy that we should feel for the homeless. That being said, I find it highly appropriate to enforce the “no public encampment” ordinance, especially in this context. All one has to do is go down to the area surrounding the Five Points Marta station to see where we could end up if we don’t enforce these rules. Our square is potentially a very attractive target for those looking for a place to squat, loiter, panhandle, and steal. We can’t let that happen.
While it is important to consider the needs of the homeless, it is also important to consider the good of the people of Decatur as a whole, who value the cleanliness, safety, and even sacradness of our square. Our humanitarian impulses should lead us to do whatever we can to make public services available to the homeless. I am personally of the opinion that the lack of effective drug, alcohol, mental health, and childcare treatment is a primary reason for our cities’ homelessness crisis. Substantially improving those services on a statewide level is, frankly, probably outside of the scope of what COD can do. But we can’t surrender the safety and beauty of our public spaces to the ills that accompany the crisis.
That’s just my two cents.
Beautifully put. Feeling sympathy for the homeless, yet still wanting to keep public spaces from becoming panhandlers’ havens or squatters’ camps, are not mutually exclusive points of view. Take a walk through Woodruff Park sometime after 7:00 pm, or Mary Hope Park (down on Marietta Street) at just about any hour of the day, if you want to see the potential for not addressing such issues. IME, most people who chose Decatur as their home did so because its quality of life is still superior to that of Atlanta or the surrounding suburbs/cities; a city that fails to deal with these “quality of life” matters will quickly find itself becoming a place where no one wants to live.
I’m the one who called the police last night.
It’s interesting to read these comments. I agree with many of them, especially James Radford. As a resident of Decatur, I pay a premium to live, work, play, walk, shop, dine, etc. in an environment that is clean, beautiful, well-designed and safer than other areas.
I am not a “pioneer.” I bought a home here rather than in another community because I don’t believe that fending off drug dealers and panhandlers is an accepable part of daily life. I have friends who own homes in other areas that have to move drug addicts out of their backyards when they come home at night. They’re up to that task, I’m not.
I am a business owner who recognizes that crime increases hurt my customers and my business. Groups of people making the Square their hangout is not the direction I want to see this community travel. As another poster said, this is Decatur, not Five Points. NIMBYism? Okay.
Those of you who disagree with me, consider this: The best case scenario last night was that these folks were merely homeless, and the stroller did not in fact house a small innocent child (no one has discussed that yet) but was just stuffed with belongings.
The worst case scenario is that these people were mentally ill, drug addled, predatory or some combination thereof. What of our friends and neighbors in and around the Square who work in the service industry and close their places of business after most of us have gone to bed, then often walk to their cars, or walk/bike home with their tips on them?
What if my calling the police last night prevented an incident like that at the Standard?
The nottom line is that the Square is not being as well patrolled as we’d like to believe. There is supposed to be an officer on the Square at all times. There used to be (anyone remember CJ?) and he was great. We need that visible uniformed presence on the Square to preserve our businesses, our community core, and our quality of life.
And as Decaturites, we owe it to our ourselves and our neighbors to be vigilant and involved.
That’s my two cents.
Your position is not unreasonable, Alex. The square, as others have mentioned, is public space, owned by the public. But what that really means is twofold: The public has the right to use it, yes, but also has the responsibility to hold such use to certain standards agreed upon by the community.
The tough part is coming up with what those standards should be, as erring in either direction can have very dire consequences.
When is Scott going to announce for a council seat? I’ll vote for him.
I think I’m destined to remain in a supporting role, Daren. I do not have sufficiently-coiffed political hair.
We can actually fix that, Scott. Ronco has this great spray hair all the politicians are using this season.
Before we get even shoutier, I think everyone agrees homelessness is not a good thing. It’s bad for the people without homes and for the communities where the homeless congregate.
That said, what’s the best way for Decatur to respond? Sleeping in the square is problematic, but so, potentially, is moving people along in the middle of the night. Where’d the people go? To a nearby parking garage? Someone’s backyard? Is there a nearby shelter?
One more thing here. Just wanted to mention the irony of the encampment’s location. The children’s statue was donated to the city of Decatur with private funds in an effort led by Mayor Floyd. The statue is to honor one of Decatur’s greatest residents, Dr. Elizbeth Wilson.
For those of you who haven’t had the honor of knowing Elizabeth, she is truly one of our greatest assets. She was the driving force behind making Decatur what it is today. She is highly visible around town, shopping and dining in our businesses, and extensively involved in charitable work. Elizabeth Wilson is as gracious, vital and tenacious a person as anyone could imagine. There is a brief video bio of her at http://www.elifemagazine.net/wilson.htm
Dr. WIlson almost certainly would have discovered a better solution than I did last night, one that would have helped the homeless group while preserving public safety. But I can’t imagine that a woman who worked so long and hard to create this beautiful area would have simply kept walking.
I work, I pay very high taxes and want high quality of neighborhood life. The homeless are not contributing to the neighborhood, paying taxes or increasing my property value. A portion of our taxes goes towards shelters and programs to assist in homeless prevention and/or rapid re-housing- which are often underutilized.
I see no reason for our maintained public space to become a homeless hotel. And, for those of you that believe that laws don’t need enforced then I’m sure that you won’t have any issues when a murderer isn’t prosecuted for killing your loved one. Laws are laws, only the penalites are different.
Pretty big leap from loitering to murder nittany. And I’m not sure anyone has said don’t enforce the law. Yes, there were comments early on that asked why the police were involved, but once it came out that it’s illegal no one has said “Forget the law!”
And by the way, laws aren’t just laws. Laws are human inventions and therefore can be overturned or altered, which gives folks every right to disagree with them.
Nittany313 -
We agree it’s both illegal and undesirable for homeless people to camp on the square.
So now what?
If cops simply run the people off, what is accomplished? They go somewhere else and do the same thing. Probably nearby, too. They’re homeless, it’s not like they can get in their cars and drive to the next town.
I’m not saying do nothing. I am saying the problems associated with homelessness can’t really be addressed simply by strictly enforcing anti-loitering rules.
I think it’s safe to assume we’re going to have more homeless people in the community over the next year than we did during the previous year.
It’s worth discussing effective, compassionate solutions to the problem.
Does City of Decatur have rules or a program for dealing with homelessness?
I worked at a homeless shelter quite a bit in college. It actually got to the point that I became well known to the homeless folks in my college town. I remember going to a local grocery store (where some would hang out during the day) and having them call out my name and give me high fives, etc. It made for some interesting questions on first dates!
Re solutions to homelessness, Decatur has Hagar House, a homeless shelter on Church Street for women and children. I have volunteered there often. Hagar House is but one of the projects under Decatur Cooperative Ministries. DCM is an organization devoted to helping the near homeless avoid disaster and helping those who are already homeless get food and services.
Decatur also has Our House, an organization that provides free day care and other services to homeless families to help them find employment and housing.
These are services that actually help our homeless population in real, long term and lasting ways. Turning your head to allow the homeless to congregate on the square may give them a resting/panhandling spot for a few hours, but it does not help this population.
We actually moved here from an area near Little Five Points because of the many problems created by the homeless folks hanging around there. It is not a place that you want your kids walking through on their way home from school. If the square in Decatur ever ended up like that, we would lose most of our current businesses and our children/families would not longer be able to safely walk home from school go to Blue Sky Concerts, etc.
I believe that you can help the homeless tremendously by volunteering at or donating to our local organizations devoted to helping these folks get back on their feet. They are always desperate for help and cash/food/clothing/furniture, etc. Another way to help this population is to lobby for better mental health services for the indigent. Many of the homeless have very serious and even dangerous mental problems and do not have the money or where with all to stay on their meds.
I believe that you do very little for them by simply saying.. well, lets just let them congregate here. It feels good .. but it doesn’t help anything and it truly has the potential to be dangerous.
Perhaps one stop gap measure is for our police officers to carry cards with contact information for organizations that help the homeless and perhaps provide some means of getting them to a shelter or other organization – maybe we could have a service that offers escorted MARTA rides to make sure that they get to a shelter. Hmm… maybe there are better ideas.
As we all know, many of the homeless were just like you and me before hard luck and mental illness struck. They deserve better health services and they deserve our compassion and our attention. It may seem contradictory to some here, but to me, compassion does not need to include allowing them to just hang out wherever they please. There are no easy answers though.
Wonderful response Mr. Fixit with great info. And thank you Paula for the link.
Amen, Bic.
Very well put. Just adding a little more info here. The Atlanta VAMC on Clairmont is very pro-active helping the Veterans with their Homeless program and Mental Health clinics. There is also a shuttle system in place that will take the Veterans from Decatur Marta to the VAMC and back.
You know, I wasn’t going to get involved in this any further, but if I hear one more person ANYWHERE imply that paying high taxes or taxes period gives them more rights than someone whose current situation precludes payment of said taxes my head will explode. Please realize language is powerful and the subtext of your words is more often telling than the literal composition. The entire concept of rights extending only to taxpayers was pretty much shot to hell under the political egalitarian-based philosophies of Andrew Jackson and his cadre of support in the 1820s, whose extension of suffrage to all white males actually informs our current concept of democracy. Urgh.
Nelliebelle,
Andrew Jackson alert! Man, why is it that every blog comment thread ends up with a gratuitous Andrew Jackson reference?
My head just exploded.
(smile)
I’m sorry. I just help it sometimes. Have you seen the man’s hairdo?
I understand the “I pay high taxes so I deserve quality services and a completely sterile environment devoid of societal problems” argument. Really I do. What I don’t understand is why you live in Decatur with that attitude. Alpharetta is very nice, so is Buford and many other outlying metro areas. Live there, and you will be surrounded by folks who think like you! Heck, “nittany” can even move back to State College, where it’s just drunk college kids passing out on the sidewalk and not actual homeless folks!
The issue is that there are plenty of programs and state funding for these individuals to get back into homes. As Mr. Fixit noted above there are several shelters in Decatur that are available. Also, the below excerpt are just a few examples of the Dekalb County programs that are being offered (along with their collective taxpayer cost)
Homeless Prevention and Rapid Re-Housing Program (HPRP) – $2,359,998
This funding will be used to either prevent individuals and families from becoming homeless or help those experiencing homelessness to be quickly re-housed and stabilized.
Neighborhood Stabilization Program (NSP) – $18,545,013
This funding will be used in the areas of greatest need in DeKalb County to help stabilize neighborhoods impacted by the foreclosure/mortgage crisis.
Given that these types of programs and funding exist, we don’t need to be welcoming these individuals to actively break the law and panhandle individuals that are bringing very needed spending money into the businesses on the square.
You obviously don’t work in social services if you are making a statement like that.
We Decaturites are far too tolerant to tolerate your alleged intolerance Nittany.
Kidding, of course. It’s always amusing how, when someone makes an argument that involves quality of living & finances in Decatur, that person runs the risk of being encouraged to move to ______ (insert northern suburb here) and go live amongst ‘their kind.’
My hunch is that Decatur, despite all the Subarus and bumper stickers, may not be the idealogical monolith that others think/hope it is.
Amen brother Robbie!
God help us all if we were to lose any more of the folks that don’t always agree with the ominous Decatur majority. We’d surely back-pat ourselves into endless calamity.
DM, you have to remember that for those of us who are native to the South and also radical/liberal/socialist/, or heck, even centrist Democrats, cling mightily to the poor little People’s Republic of Decatur we’ve always had considering what has happened to our region over the last 20 years.
Don’t burst our bubble with your reality, people
Decatur Cooperative Ministry has quite a bit of info about resources for people who are homeless: http://www.decaturcooperativeministry.org/resources.php
The stroller part of this story sounds familiar. As I was walking by the Courthouse on a three weeks ago, a heavy-set kid was sitting on a bench with a 3 year-old in a stroller. He was very polite yet kinda of dopey eyed, and went into his story about how they are from Chattanooga and can’t stay at “the church” any longer and needs money for food. FWIW, I have lived in this area for 8 years and am VERY skeptical when I am stopped by people needing something. I have a 2 year-old boy and immediately I felt sick to my stomach. I take a look at the baby then back at the pathetic looking kid with tattoos going up his arm and decided to buy them something to eat versus handing over money. Went to Quizno’s and got them a sandwich + 2 drinks and handed it to him. He looked at the sandwich like it was an antique lamp. I see some marks on his arm then ask where they were staying now. He says the Decatur Inn and I walk away wondering what the hell I should do now? Is this kid baiting the baby to get meth money from all of us kind Decatur folks? Do I call the police…DFCS? I didn’t do anything further.
Well, I saw him with the baby and 2 other adults sitting outside of Starbags Saturday 2 weeks ago. I looked at him, he looked at me and I kept walking. Long story short, I would bet that the kid, baby and extended family are the homeless campers. I wanted to get this out, just in case any of you have heard a similar story from the kid + baby from Chattanooga.
Sorry about the “on a” typo!
Rusty, I encountered the same person a couple weeks ago as well, right in front of the Courthouse as you did. I got the same vibe – and I also made a mental note that this was the first time I think I’d ever been “panhandled” in Decatur. I was actually kind of shocked that he was doing it, and hadn’t been engaged by Decatur police.
I’m a hardened ex-L5P’er, and my personal rule is that I NEVER give money to homeless/panhandlers/beggars. I try to remember that, wherever you are, you are steps away from someone else’s home/business/property, and you should consider whether they would want to reinforce their presence nearby. The people with Gwinnett license plates who used to drop by L5P every weekend and take food orders for the homeless ticked me off to no end, and I am resolved to never do that to someone else.
Anywho, I rejected the kid’s request out of hand.
Just thought I would add that we were panhandled last night at the bar INSIDE Taco Mac. The management was quick to ask the person to leave the establishment which was appreciated.
I’ve been panhadled several time in the local parking lots (Kroger, Big Lots, etc) and the square but I believe actually going into someone else’s business and panhandling customers is going a bit too far.
I do agree with you on that.
I was hit-up for change on the way to Leon’s and while enjoying a snob-beer at a window seat in Leon’s. As always, it was awkward and disquieting. The feelings were compounded by being in a hip eatery while drinking a very expensive raspberry beer.
I am surprised that there seems to be a far amount of Decarurites who do not see or experience panhandling/homelessness/vagrants in Decatur.
I’ve never really seen any homelessness or panhandling in Decatur, but as I noted in another thread, maybe I’ve become desensitized to it by living in L5P all those years, and working in downtown Atlanta. I guess I only notice them when they are in groups larger than 30!
My favorite panhandle experience: I was on the square and approached by the person who wears the blue chiffon dress with the go-go boots–I’m sure you all know him, not a bad guy as far as I can tell–and asked for $5 for a trip to Starbucks.
It breaks my heart to hear/see this in such a wealthy country and neighborhood…..
I wonder if Decatur would support a “no panhandling” ordinance? We have experienced panhandling numerous times while eating outside on the square. I think most on this thread feel empathy for the homeless, but also recognize the social consequences of not addressing public loitering, panhandling, etc. This is something I would like the Commission to address.
Here’s one section of City Code:
Sec. 70-18. Disorderly conduct.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person within the corporate limits of the city to violate any of the following subsections of this section:
(1) Any person who shall act in a violent or tumultuous manner toward another whereby any person is placed in danger of safety of his life, limb or health;
(2) Any person who shall act in a violent or tumultuous manner toward another whereby the property of any person is placed in danger of being destroyed or damages;
(3) Any person who shall cause, provoke or engage in any fight, brawl or riotous conduct so as to endanger the life, limb, health, or property of another;
(4) Any person who shall assemble or congregate with another or others for the purpose or with the intent to engage in gaming;
(5) Any person who shall frequent any public place with intent to obtain money from other persons by illegal and fraudulent schemes, tricks, artifices or devices;
(6) Any person who assembles for the purpose of engaging in any fraudulent scheme, device or trick, to obtain any valuable thing in any place or from any person in the city, or who shall aid or abet therein;
(7) Any person who shall use fighting words directed towards any person who becomes outraged and thus creates a turmoil;
(8) Any person who shall by acts of violence interfere with another’s pursuit of a lawful occupation; or
(9) Any person who shall congregate with another or others in or on any public way so as to halt the flow of vehicular or pedestrian traffic and refuses to clear such public way when ordered by the city police or other lawful authority.
(b) Any person who shall violate any subsection of this section may be charged with the offense of disorderly conduct and, on conviction thereof, may be found guilty of disorderly conduct.
Here’s another:
Sec. 70-19. Loitering or prowling.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person within the corporate limits of the city to commit the offense of loitering or prowling.
(b) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when one is in a place, at a time, or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.
State law references: Loitering or prowling, O.C.G.A. § 16-11-36.
(c) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstances makes it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this section if the law enforcement officer failed to comply with the foregoing procedure, or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.
(d) A person committing the offense of loitering or prowling shall be guilty of a violation of this section and, upon conviction, shall be punished as provided in section 1-12.
Isn’t the city code fun? I now obsessed with the ordinance against molesting fowl.
Interesting… I don’t think either of these would cover the panhandling situation, since simply asking for money on the street without pretext wouldn’t constitute “illegal and fraudulent schemes, tricks, artifices or devices,” unless the panhandler conjures up a false reason for asking for money.
Panhandling ordinances actually present an interesting legal problem, because how do you draw the line between a friendly “can I borrow a quarter to feed the meter” and pure panhandling? It’s one of those “you know if when you see it” type of offenses that is nonetheless difficult to define legally.
One way that cities have dealt with this is to designate certain “zones” as “no panhandling” zones, such that asking for money within those areas is proscribed. That gets around First Amendment concerns because it is a reasonable restriction as to the time and place of the speech in question, i.e. the asking for money. People are free to ask for money outside of those zones. In Decatur, we could designate the square and its surrounding sidewalks as no panhandling zones, making the unsolicited request for money within those zones a citable offense. I think this is something we ought to consider.
When you get a chance… watch this Frontline documentary. It pretty much sums up the major cause of homelessness and lays out the solution.
If our country and our communities could invest in quality mental health services and quality halfway programs to get these people stabilized medically and mentally, a good number of them would no longer be on the street. Unfortunately, funding for mental health services pretty much dried up in the Reagan administration.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/asylums/
Pretty much, Fixit.
I don’t support things like no panhandling ordinances. If we want to talk about free society, the panhandler has the right to ask as much as you have the right to walk away.
And don’t jump in with those “Oh, aggressive scary homeless scare me and victimize me” comments, because most homeless don’t chase you down the street screaming for for your filthy lucre.
Again, it all goes back to that stupid I pay my taxes so I have more/better rights nonsense. Taxes are supposed to support a community foundation that will allow the stronger members of a society to thrive while allowing a leg up for the less advantaged. Our society does not support the less advantaged properly through healthcare, education systems, mental health, job training and addiction services. Yeah, I am lumping those all together because they all matter. I lived in England for a bit and rarely saw addicted and mentally ill on the nice clean streets because taxes were taking care of most people who need them. We should never have posting on which school systems are better because schools from the tip of Alaska to the toe of Florida should offer the same quality of education.
Nearly every time James Radford posts here, I get more and more anxious to vote against him.
I agree….I have been to other ‘first world” countries where this is not seen on the level it is here in the US. The reason, I was informed, was that the programs are better over seas than here as far as helping the addicted, mentally ill, homeless etc.
Gosh, I don’t know, Sandie– I’ve lived in & travelled to cities in many “first world” countries in Europe– France, England, Ireland, Scotland, the Netherlands, & Italy, and in all of them, there were homeless folks everywhere. Not throngs of them, mind you, but certainly no fewer than are around in downtown ATL or L5P (albeit many more than are here in Decatur). Perhaps your experience was different from mine, but much of Europe has just as big a homeless population as we do. Social service programs are not, unfortunately, the be-all/end-all; it’s certainly desireable and necessary to have them, but there also has to be en enforcement of quality of life ordinances. Government can only offer so much of a safety network; there has to be some personal responsibility in the mix.
“Taxes are supposed to support a community foundation that will allow the stronger members of a society to thrive while allowing a leg up for the less advantaged. ”
You have that wrong. Taxes are supposed to support the operation of government. That’s it. There is no ideological prescription for taxes – it is up to the community to decide what the government will do, and implement taxes to fund these operations. Taxes are neutral – they are not for advantaged or disadvantaged people, they are for government.
If the community decides that certain uses of public property are unacceptable, then that’s the community’s call.
Right on E!
People like NellieBelle look to Washington and even the Commission to solve everything. [edited: no personal insults]
Please don’t call me ignorant because we disagree on what taxes should be accomplishing and what the actual function of government may or may not be. You have no idea about my background, education or intelligence. I have noted many comments in your posts that seem “ignorant” to my point of view, but I don’t lower myself to calling you “ignorant”. If I really want to parse your post, it makes absolutely no sense- E actually makes an argument, though I think I lot of it is based on semantics and definitions. You sling insults.
And no, I wouldn’t vote for James Radford based on the things he posts here.
Nellie can defend herself Left Wing, but I’m a little pissed that you’d so nonchalantly cross that line having been around so long.
Do you find that discussion thrives after you call someone with an opposing view “ignorant?” Do you learn a lot after that? Or is there nothing more to learn? Got it all figured out. Must be nice. Maybe if you could just get control of that judgmental side you could save us all.
Moderation.
My bad…sorry for the snippy post
Won’t happen again….I think
E, i have appreciated your posts lately, even when we disagree. I especially like your brave posts on race and education.
Since I am exhausted from Left Wing, I only want to say that in the post to which you replied I don’t think we are that far apart. I may have been a little sloppy with my use of “taxes” to have made the point I intended.
Really?
You get more and more “anxious” to vote against him?
How is that? Sounds like you meant to say:
“I get more and more anxious when I think about voting for him!”
And “less advantaged”? What the h-ll does that mean anyway? Sounds to me like the kid with the track marks on his arm is “less advantaged”….right?
Oh, my, Nellie– not sure when you lived in England, but when I lived there, I saw dozens of homless, who were (judging by their actions & speech) of varying degrees of sanity, alcoholism, and addiction, nearly everywhere I went. Just down from my dorm, there were vagrants who’d sleep on the storm drain grates right in the middle of the sidewalks (I lived in London on Charlotte Street, which is smack-dab in the middle of Fitzrovia– one of the artsy-fartsy neighborhoods just to the north of the West End, so it wasn;t a “bad” part of town). That was nearly 12 years ago, and while I agree that the UK has much better and extensive programs in place to service the homeless, mentally ill and the addicted, it has by no means lessened their numbers.
Wow, we were there at the same time. I lived north London in what was actually a bad neighborhood (recently profiled in Vanity Fair as the hotbed of radical Islam in Britain) and commuted through King’s Cross to my job in the City and also on to the University of London. I do believe statistically the numbers are actually much less over there because of social programs. I wish I could find an article I recently read….
Were you there for school? I was at Jeremy Bentham over at UCL. Did you ever get a chance to go to Camden Yards? Best outdoor markets, food stalls, metal/hard rock venues, funky galleries– man, I miss it! Even tho I’m a sunshine lover thru & thru, London is one of my favorite cities on the planet.
Cubra, sort of. It was graduate work-study. I was supposed to be auditing classes through the Institute for Historic Research, but I was also working for a fancy City financial firm, and got really more into that. I miss real English sausage rolls more than life. I loved it there too. My favorite place was actually the Roman wall remnant in the East End. My firm actually offered me a position, but I would have sleeping under your dorm window at the rate I would earn!
NellieBelle, I’m from Britain, and don’t think your perception on the lack of homeless in the UK is accurate. I’m not challenging your statement that you saw fewer homeless, as you obviously saw what you saw, but I believe you may have just been in the wrong (or right areas).
The fact that you didn’t live in a godd area might have been part of the reason. Many of the homeless people in Britain have a tendency to gravitate towards relatively affluent areas, simply because they’re going to stand a greater chance of receiving donations than they would if they hung out in areas where nobody else has any money either. Oddly enough, one issue in Britain is that we have well documented problems with “career homeless” people, who are generally not homeless at all, but earn a living by pretending to be living on the street (particularly around commuter stations, such as Victoria). Unfortunately, their actions don’t help the genuinely needy people, as many commuters lump everyone into the same category, and therefore donate to nobody.
A lot of the reasons for the homelessness are the same as the US. Many state funded mental healthcare institutions have been closed to save money, so former patients find themselves on the street, etc.
You know, Flaka, that makes sense about “bad” vs “good” neighborhoods. And I have encountered the career homeless you mention, and have read a bit about this phenom. But I have seen recent figures (wish I could find, dammit) that point to our being leaps and bounds above England in homelessness and lack of care for mentally ill and addicts. My husband is from a country with strong nationalized health care and mental health services; he was shocked when he moved here with the disparities and the people on the streets. Not many are really rich where is from, but almost no one is on the street.
I think Flaka was definitely on to something with the “good” and “bad” neighborhood thing. I also would suggest that it may also have to do with “use”. You may not have lived in a good area Nellie, but was it high density and were the public spaces often being used? That’s usually enough to dissuade the homeless to another unused location regardless of the area’s relative wealth.
Perhaps one of the reasons Americans often think about the homeless always being in the poor neighborhoods is because we destroyed so many of their thriving urban environments during Urban Renewal and what was once a poor, but vibrant community is now barren wasteland. Just a thought.
Flaka, what you said about the homeless gravitating to the likeliest places to get donations makes sense to me, too. I’m curious– what’s your take on Rick’s statement @ 12:44 pm about his experiences when he lived in London?
Okay, I found some data. Not what I was looking for but I can stop saying I know I read something somewhere:
Per British government stats:
Approximately .0002% of the population or 11,800 people are homeless at any time
Per US government stats:
Approximately 1 % of the population or 3 million are homeless at any time.
Cubra, I also found some interesting stuff on a lot of coordinated nation-wide efforts in Britain to tackle homelessness. This concentrated effort is relatively new. ..
“In London, there is a severe shortage of decent, affordable housing. This is reflected in the high numbers of homeless households in temporary accommodation in London.
The government has introduced a range of laws and policies to help tackle homelessness. The Homelessness Act 2002 requires all local authorities to develop a homelessness strategy for their area. Each London borough has a strategy which looks at preventing homelessness and providing accommodation and support for homeless people.”
HomelessLondon.org
NellieBelle, I’m thinking there’s maybe a bit of propaganda involved UK government statistics on the homeless (but odd the US government would do likewise). With a population of around 61 million, I’d be astonished if there were less than 12,000 homeless at any given time? I’m guessing there’s some crazy explanation, such as the figures represent registered homeless (I don’t know if there’s such a thing as registered homeless, but if there is, I doubt many would register).
Although I’m saying that the UK homeless situation is far worse than you may believe, I do agree that it probably is much easier to fall on hard times in the US though. I don’t know the intricacies of the social security and Medicare systems here, but I certainly don’t think they’re as liberal as the UK equivalents.
BTW, I’m not sure where this post will end up, as I think we’ve confused the reply options on the website!
OK, I just added one more level of responses to the site (that’s why after a certain point you can’t reply anymore). Hopefully that’s enough!
“OK, I just added one more level of responses to the site (that’s why after a certain point you can’t reply anymore). Hopefully that’s enough!”
Wow, you’re quick DM… Shame there wasn’t a reply option to you post though (don’t worry, I’m just winding you up).
Opps. I’ll reply to myself. Above shoulld have said odd the US govt would NOT do likewise (as in underestimating the homeless figures).
That’s true; they are “cleaning up” for the Olympics.
You know, I wasn’t planning on getting all overwrought and such. I think I may in the furture stick to posting inappropriate comments about strange sections of city ordinance. Like fowl molesting. Thanks for a good chat kids.
“You know, I wasn’t planning on getting all overwrought and such. I think I may in the furture stick to posting inappropriate comments about strange sections of city ordinance. Like fowl molesting. Thanks for a good chat kids”
NellieBelle, keep those inappropriate comments coming, but don’t limit them the city ordinance…. You still win the award for the most amusing one liner I’ve seen on this site (but I’m going to leave you wondering what it was about).
Interesting– thanks for posting that info. That’s all happened since you & I were over there, so maybe those initiatives are working. I certainly hope so, because I used to feel so helpless, sad, & frustrated when I’d see those people literally sleeping on the sidewalks.
No sweat Nellie. I appreciate a healthy debate, and if we have ideological differences, we can just “agree to disagree.” That’s what democracy is all about, no? In any case, folks like you make this such a great blog by generating real debate and discussion.
I actually apologize to you for my snark above. I shouldn’t have said that about voting for you, but I was getting fired up, and reason left the fingers.
Funding for mental health dried up under Reagan? Based on what evidence? I suppose to many on the left, saying that fuding for anything dried up under Reagan is an article of faith that dare not be questioned. Yet one measley Google search yielded the article below. Is $104 billion in 2001 “dried up”? I don’t know what the amount is now, but to suggest that we stopped funding mental health programs in the 1980s is just flatly untrue.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.133/DC1
Spending for mental health and substance abuse (MHSA) treatment in the United States totaled $104 billion in 2001, representing 7.6 percent of all health care spending. The nominal MHSA annual spending growth rate from 1991 to 2001 was 5.6 percent, almost one percentage point below the growth rate for all health care (6.5 percent). During this period, Medicaid has increased to be the largest payer of mental health care, with prescription drugs the fastest-growing spending component. Private insurance payment for substance abuse actually dropped in real dollars, increasing the public share of substance abuse spending.
Throughout the 1980s, Reagan oversaw the defunding & closing of traditional mental institutions and block granted mental health funds Carter had targeted for a national mental health plan, which would have provided more parity in mental health policy ,and put them under state control, where oversight for effective mental health policy was nullified. Homelessness flourished during the 1980s. Clinton did much the same with Welfare to Work in the 1990s.
It’s not about the dollars but about the policy and the long-term impact of policy. For example, in Reagan’s first budget he decimated the funding for the federal Legal Services Corporation, which severely limited access to legal advice for low income people in family, consumer and housing issues. Civil legal services have never recovered to the heights they experienced in the 1970s.
Much of Reagan’s social policy was rooted in privatization of key government services and less on overall effective policy. Tons of books on the impact of Reagan – and Clinton – policies on public welfare.
TONS OF BOOKS EXIST, that is…
I lived in central London (worked in zone 1 and lived in zone 2) for 4 years up until approx 2.5 years ago. That city has no where near the homeless population that any American city half the size has. Social services provides some type of home for everyone (even if its hidden away and substandard). London is a very dynamic city and probably more cosmpolitan than NYC but it usually falls on the list as one of the top 5 most expensive cities in the world. People that live there pay dearly for high quality social services. I’d view it as the ideal civilization, however something about that social structure just does not feel right to me…feels out of whack to me…particularly the huge disparity between the rich and the poor. Its easier to keep the poor hidden in that society than it is here.
As noted above, the social saftety net for the mentally ill was ripped away under Reagan, and then welfare was ripped away under Clinton.
I find it ironic and paradoxical that a society that tends to loosely call itself ‘Christian’ tends to be the most hypocritical when it comes to people that are destitute in our society. How many churches are there in Decatur? 20? Open those up and let people sleep in there. Oh…but that would cause all sorts of problems, aye? I mean…people go to those places and play dress up and make each others [edited] brains feel secure by telling themselves “I must be sane. These people ‘believe’ the same way I ‘believe’. These places of worship must be clean and sanitary and full of fancy and expensive material objects.”
Yet these people will be the first to create a law barring the destitute from thier environment.
Most people don’t seem to get it. You complain about gangs and violence and homelessness and all the other ills of society and then get ready to arm yourselves and respond with more violence if necessary.
Society is a direct and utter reflection of all of you. You can’t escape from this fact.
We are all equally responsible for every person left on the fringes of society that resorts to crime, we are equally responsible for the family that does not have a home.
Are any of you really doing anything about it besides trying to figure out how to avoid it?
Who among us immerses themselves in the impoverished inner city of Atlanta to make change in some manner? Good luck trying to create an isolated wall around this city.
Wow.
Uh, Rick, a big chunk of the social services available in Decatur are ministry-based. But don’t let that get in the way of a good rant.
Rick, you’re absolutely right. Everyone here hates the homeless (especially the children), fears & despises the mentally ill, and has NO clue about the troubles of the big wide world except for what’s under our own noses. What’s more, none of us volunteers for anything other than our own insular community concerns, has never given a homeless person money or food, has never bothered to write a check to shelters or charitable organizations that help the mentally ill or homeless, nor gives a tin crap about anyone outside our own little bit of Heaven right here on Earth. Those of us who are churchgoing are intent upon ignoring the words of the Lord, because after all, everyone knows that church is just a place to go to socialize with others like ourselves. A bunch of care-naughts, the lot of us! You’ve called us out, all right, and told us where we live. Fie, fie, fie! I shall go and rend my clothing, and garb myself in sackcloth and ashes for my sins against the unfortunate.
Overgeneralization makes people tune you out. Blame makes people hide from the issues. Extreme statements are enjoyable to your political opposites who love a good fight and attractive to your fringe supporters, but don’t do anything to inspire and motivate the moderates in between who are non-violent, compassionate, and well-meaning but are imperfect, busy, distracted, confused human beings like the majority of the world.
Leading by example is probably the most effective influence over others although very few have the strength and will to do it.
Which is precisely why I posted what I did. Snowflake, I didn’t take your response as being directed at me, but I realize it could’ve just as aptly been directed at my ever-so-slightly sarcastic post. Like everyone else, I occasionally grow weary of the overwrought harping of handwringers who seek only to point fingers rather than find solutions, and I respond in kind. Stating opposing opinions are one thing; hysterical rants lumping us all in as being willfully uncaring & blind to the plight of the less fortunate are another. At the end of the day, though, I don’t aim to change hearts & minds, because blogs are generally not the medium where that happens. I do agree that the best course is to lead by example, and that’s what I try to do– both here and in the real world. I’m not proud of it when my temper gets the better of my manners, regardless of where I’m speaking.
Cubra, I really don’t think Snowflake was talking about you. I think you both made excellent points in your own ways.
Rick, I disagree with you. I’ve lived in London / Oxford for the past 5 years or so. I get offered the Big Issue by a homeless person nearly every day in Oxford. In London, all the major train / tube stations have homeless people in the walkways.
The problem seems worse there.
To enlighten anyone curious, the Big Issue is a magazine sold by homeless people in major cities in Britain. Here’s the basic M.O. from its website:
“The Big Issue exists to offer homeless and vulnerably housed people the opportunity to earn a legitimate income. We produce a weekly entertainment and current affairs magazine which vendors buy from us for 70p and sell to the public for £1.50, keeping 80p for themselves. Vendors must adhere to a code of conduct whilst selling the magazine”
(£1.50 is currently about $2.40)
“We are all equally responsible for every person left on the fringes of society that resorts to crime, we are equally responsible for the family that does not have a home.
Are any of you really doing anything about it besides trying to figure out how to avoid it?”
Rick, don’t they have some responsibility themselves? I don’t consider myself equally responsible. The person that is homeless… drug addicted, etc. bears the primary responsibility for their situation and the primary responsibility for getting themselves out of it. Should we help? Yes. Should we enable? No.
Having had a relative with a serious drug problem, I can assure you that no level of services or coaxing or lending a hand will help until that person wants to be helped. Once they truly want to be helped and want to succeed, it takes relatively little effort to get to a functional place.
Alas, Mr. Fixit, personal responsibility is passe these days. The rule now seems to be that some people can take drugs, drop out of school, etc., and it’s you responsibility to send them money simply because you chose not to ruin your life.
To whom or what are you referring to specifically?
What about the mentally ill?
That’s the tough one. That’s where the mental health services are desperately needed. A lot of homeless people would be quite functional if they could get access to their meds and had the mental capacity to stay on them.
Obviously some people are so mentally ill that they can have no responsibility for themselves. Unfortunately, a lot of these people are just turned loose to roam the streets with little access to meds and not services to help them stay on any meds that they might get access too. I’m not sure what the reasoning behind all of the cuts in housing/treatment for mental illness is, but it is inhumane IMO.
Unless the person is completely delusional, I believe that even folks suffering from mental illness also bear some responsibility to do their best to get help and cooperate with those who are trying to help them. No one can be helped unless they decide that they want help and that they are willing to at least try. There are some homeless folks who do want help… and others that just aren’t to that point yet.
I would like to register a vote for compassion, decent social services, affordable decent daycare and senior care, back to work programs, adequate mental health facilities, appropriate shelters for the homeless or abused, and whatever else is needed to get homelessness down to the lowest level possible. Why? Because that’s I was taught and have believed since toddlerhood. I don’t believe my ultra-conservative parents meant to teach me that but they did by their decent example, sending me to church and Girl Scouts, surrounding me with decent neighbors and friends, and being community leaders and volunteers.
I would also like to register a vote for not allowing camping and loitering or whatever it’s called properly in public places. The atmosphere of Five Points discourages me every single day I go there and I am positive that it is not good for area workers, visitors, residents, or the homeless. We can do more good in Decatur by having a healthy, wholesome, attractive, and safe-appearing community that serves all the residents with good schools, safe streets and parks, and safe housing. Vagrancy and loitering are not particularly bad behaviors but they are illegal and attract more dangerous crime. It helps no one to allow it.
My wife, children and I each keep a small pepper spray cannister on our keychains. When panhandlers interrupt your evening walk (as they often do) there is no better deterrent then ejecting the pepper spray on the panhandler. It’s harmless, but also sends a strong message that panhandling is not acceptable here. I also utilize this method to help reduce panhandling at the freedom parkway / boulevard intersection from my car on the way home from work. I encourage all fellow decaturites to carry, and generously use pepper spray for safety from professional panhandlers that are threatening our city.
I really hope this is a joke.
Nelliebelle, that posting by Dedogur was the one that finally compelled me to join this discussion. I am visualizing him gleefully lowering his car window at the intersection in order to get a good shot at any hated panhandler(s). Wow – what a crazy world of thought and attitude of fear!
PROFESSIONAL panhandlers. When you’ve lived in the city your while life, you learn to identify the professional panhandlers. In our family we teach only to deter the pro panhandlers, jehova witnesses, etc. with pepper spray. If someone doesn’t approach me, I’m not going to chase them down, sheesh. People need to start caring about their community.
Again, wow. I hope you are joking. You actually say you pepper spray Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Guys, this person HAS to be joking, or attempting to at least.
Dedogur, you are being fecitious. If it weren’t so pitiful, it might even be funny,
Assuming that these people have only approached you to ask for money, rather than actually threatening you physically, using pepper spray against someone who doesn’t present a danger to you is battery, and you could be arrested for it. (Yes, I used to work for two different DAs, so I do know what I’m talking about). For a legitimate self-defense action, there must be a corresponding legitimate threat (or reasonable perception of such). The mere approach of a panhandler toward you is not a reasonable perception, and I defy you to find a legal decision declaring that it is. I wonder– do you also spray dogs who merely run up beside you? If your post is in fact serious, rather than in jest, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Cubalibre – Thanks for putting this into a legal framework as well as prodding this guy’s shamelessness.
Professional panhandling is most certainly a physical threat to me, my wife, children, neighborhood and community. Have you never been attacked by a panhandler?? Perhaps not if you are new to city living, or only go from your house to your car and back. Pepper spray is a very humane deterrent for when one is physically threatened, is it not? Can you suggest a more effective/humane deterrent? I fail to understand why you are relating people to dogs, and it seems inappropriate in this context. But to answer your question, I personally do not feel threatened by dogs, though I keep my distance from the male poodles.
Dodegur – just ignore the panhandlers or just say “no” and walk on/drive on, there is no need to use pepper spray on panhandling people. i have lived and worked in a big city for a long time, and do not have the fear of people that you seem to have. i haven’t had a car for almost 12 years, and use public transportation and/or walk all the time locally. (i only rent a car if i need it when i am on vacation.) so i am “out and about” on the streets almost every day and night. i just don’t know what your fears are based on. male poodles??
You apparently didn’t read my post very carefully. Your previous posts mentioned nothing about your being attacked, which of course would throw a completely different light onto it (but I suspect you knew that). Now, I and everyone else who responded to you read your posts the same way: that you & your family spray panhandlers (or potential panhandlers– you can’t really know what their intent was if you sprayed them before they had a chance to do more than approach you, could you?) as a pre-emptive measure. I am certainly not “new to city living”– rather, it’s your reactions that intimate that you are, or that you’ve gone to extremes to acclimate yourself with what you deem an unacceptable threat (i.e., people asking you for change). In general, people know that sometimes panhandlers become violent (which is why I do not support allowing “urban camping” or other such enabling measures), but they also know that most do not– which is why it is indeed unreasonable for you to assume that every panhandler who approaches you has violent intentions. The worst thing about this is, you’re teaching your child to be pro-actively violent toward others, even before she knows whether there’s a reason to be. This in itself could result in tragedy if she (or even you) should happen to launch a “pre-emptive strike” against someone who truly is violent, and who might strike back at you with something even worse than pepper spray. Any police officer will tell you that there are certain conditions which can lessen someone’s reaction to capsaicin, so that far from disabling them, you merely enrage them (which is why police also carry tasers). Commercially-sold pepper spray also doesn’t pack quite the disabling punch that the military/industrial-grade pepper spray the police use does. I carry a little canister of pepper spray, too– but I’ve never had to use it, and I pray I never do. I pray that your foolhardiness doesn’t lead you or your family into such a situation– I truly do.
Ha. And if more people use pepper spray on the hobos, then the pepperspray companyies can give the bums jobs. I think I get it.
This whole blog presents a very interesting discussion and display of the wide spectrum of attitudes toward the homeless, mentally ill, and less fortunate citizens of our country. Other states/cities handle incompetent homeless and mentally ill persons in completely different ways, and the key to success is availability of helping agencies and people knowing where to find the agencies and how to get there for temporary shelter, food, and assistance toward a helping program. Sometimes these people are “irresponsible,” but that may not be willful on their part, but simply because they are presently incompetent to live independently, especially the mentally ill or addicted persons. Compassion and willingness to guide these people toward safety are thankfully in evidence throughout the comments on this blog topic, but I am disgusted by some of the bully talk and fear displayed by some commenters.
That’s a lovely summation, Carolyn. I think what this conversation brings up is the expectations people have when they move into a community. I think a lot of people move into intown neighborhoods thinking housing prices and expanding taxes will give them suburbs in the city, and they bring a suburban attitude to what is essentially an urban area. There is no insult to that, but different types of people live in cities than live in burbs. Areas like ours and similar ones that dot Atlanta pose a dilemma – we are little bit of both with the appeal of both. The fact of the matter is Decatur is on the edge of Atlanta and will have many of the same issues, albeit on a smaller scale, issues cities like Buford and Johns Creek don’t really have. Only a dozen years ago the Villages at East Lake was a housing project nicknamed Little Cambodia by the cops because it was killing field. That’s, what, 4 miles from the center of Decatur? It is true that if you don’t want urban ugliness on any scale then live in the burbs. If your solution to urban issues is violence, move to the burbs. BUT there have to be reasonable, compassionate solutions that combines sound social welfare policy while growing us as a community and enhancing public safety.
Expectations of people move with them, wherever they live. I don’t think even the hollow glorification of a “safe suburb” would erase the fear and hatred of some people, they would just wallow in their own self-righteous conclave and continue to teach their children how to hate. And hate is based on fear, so you know that it’s not just going to disappear if they move to a new location. Pretty sad to think how many people fit this model… they are illogical and can’t be taught any different until something dramatic happens to change their black-or-white minds and emotions. In any case, fear and hatred are not “solutions” to any kind of social problem.
I would be very pleased if those who are appalled at the diversity, homelessness, poverty, and hopelessness that some people find themselves in, would either get educated and open their minds to the suffering of others……or find a place to live where they are less likely to come in contact with such people. I am appalled at some of the comments made, but am heartened by those who have stood up for the less fortunate.
Guess my hope that this wasn’t serious just flew out the window. I can’t actually see how you you can justify such reckless, inhumane, illegal behavior. A spare change approach would never legally constitute an attack unless you were literally physically or verbally threatened. The attacks you claim to perpetrate on Jehovah’s Witnesses border on hate crime.Cubra and I have both lived in much larger cities than this one and I personally have been a urbanite most of my life. Never would even the thought of pepper spraying another person cross my mind. I am very sorry you chose this area to spread such vile behavior.
Amen, Girl. You & I don’t always agree on everything, but I think we’re definitely on the same page on this particular issue!
A very interesting discussion. I can pretty safely say that most communities have never had such a candid conversation about this topic in their history.
But I think people are getting a little fatigued – I know I am – so let’s close ‘er up and move onto other things.