John Ahmann’s Plan For Tonight’s School Board Meeting

Decatur School Board member John Ahmann just forwarded the note he sent to his fellow board members, alerting them to what he plans to propose at tonight’s meeting.  Here it is in full…

I have reviewed the June 7, 2011 memo from CSD Legal Counsel Bob Wilson regarding the parliamentary procedures for placing on the June 14, 2011 Board agenda the action items I previously requested.  I will not be seeking to rescind  priors actions of the Board.

At the beginning of the meeting, when the Board customarily approves the agenda for the meeting, I will seek to amend the agenda to add three items:

  1. An action item to direct the Superintendent to answer all of my submitted questions or those of other board members on the adopted Bell schedule and my proposed bell schedule for the 2011-2012 school year as well as any questions posed during the discussion of the action item.

These questions include:

    1. How many additional buses/bus drivers will the Bell schedule I am seeking require?

i.     My calculation is 4.  Is this correct?

ii.     Could we reduce the number of buses for the high school and middle school by reducing the number of bus stops?

    1. What is the incremental cost of the Bell schedule I am proposing?

i.     What are the assumption behind the cost projections?

    1. Does the School Administration still maintain that the DHS SLT is ok with the earlier start-time?
    2. Provide written documentation of the impact on extra-curricular activities with a later start time.
    3. In the overview for the Board meeting April 4, 2011, the Superintendent wrote: “The middle school and high school principals were clear that we need an earlier start time and the new schedule is so reflected.”

i.     What changed for the middle school principal to support a later start time?  (8:45 instead of 8:00 a.m.)

    1. In an email  to the Board May 6, 2011, the Superintendent wrote, “I know that you still plan on discussing this at the meeting but for me option 2 comes closest to meeting as many of the comments that I have heard from the public.”

i.     Does the Superintendent have any documentation of these comments?

ii.     Given the large number of signatures on the iPetition supporting a later high school start time, does the Superintendent still maintain this position?

iii.     Did the Superintendent perform any formal preference survey of high school parents?

    1. Does the Superintendent still maintain and support an 8:00 high school start time given the lack of support from the parental members of the high school SLT and the large number of parents opposed to the 8:00 a.m. start time?
  1. An action item to amend the Bell schedule previously adopted.  The amendment is:

Substitute the following Bell schedule for the Bell schedule adopted at the May 10, 2012 CSD Board meeting:

  • Decatur High School: 8:45 – 3:45
  • Renfroe Middle School: 8:45-3:45
  • Fifth Avenue-4/5 Academy: 8:15 – 3:15
  • Clairemont: 8:00 – 2:30
  • Glennwood: 8:00 – 2:30
  • Oakhurst: 8:00-2:30
  • Winnona Park: 8:00-2:30
  • Early Childhood Learning Center: 8:00 – 2:30
  1. An action item directing the Superintendent to immediately investigate the cost of lease/purchasing school buses for CSD student transportation needs and to compare this cost to the contract with the DeKalb County School System.  If the analysis demonstrates a cost savings over the 10 year life cycle of school buses, the Superintendent shall initiate discussions with the DeKalb County School System for mutually agreed upon modifications to the current contract. The Superintendent shall give a written interim report to the Board by Friday, June 24.

My sincere hope is that one of you will second adding these items to the agenda and then at least two of you will vote in support of amending the agenda to add them.  Given the intensity of community dialogue about these items, I hope we can all agree a board discussion and consideration of these actions is desirable.  Of course, the mere fact of adding these items to the agenda does not mean you must vote affirmatively for the item when it’s considered but rather ensures we can have a full discussion and debate.

Thank you.

85 thoughts on “John Ahmann’s Plan For Tonight’s School Board Meeting”


    Too soon? Yes? Sorry… 🙁

    1. Cuba, really, this is extremely important–how am I going to make waffles, walk the dog, AND get my kids to school in morning? Tell me how! Oh woe, woe is me…

  2. I’m beginning to believe that John Ahmann is a bit nuts.

    I doubt he’ll get a second, much less a 3rd vote.

    1. On the other hand, maybe it is true that the votes he’s really after are not going to be cast (or not) at the board meeting tonight, but at the polls next November.

  3. I happen to think Mr. Ahmann’s proposed schedule is sound so I’m glad to see parliamentary possibility for “full discussion and debate”. My sense is that many other parents feel the same way, including parents of Fifth Avenue students, DHS students, and/or athletes.

    Regardless, tonight’s meeting looks like a good one to attend if one cares about this issue or ECLC teacher salaries. In terms of November, a lot can happen between now and then….especially the way things are going!

    1. Indulge me in a hypothetical, please….Let’s say there was an absolute time limit on tonight’s meeting (I don’t know why–tornadoes forecast for later? zombies due to arrive? for whatever reason, there was a hard and fast limit). Which would you consider the more important agenda item: the bell schedule or ECLC salaries?

  4. I do not care about the election – I care about my children and all the latchkey kids we will have in the fourth and fifth grades as parents struggle to get to work on time. This is not an irrelevant issue. I thought we cared about keeping diversity, but instead we are driving it out.

    1. What!? It is not, and this has been said here before, CSD’s responsibility to make sure parents get to work on time; their concern is your children in school, unfortunately we appear to have a very vocal group of latchkey parents prompting Mr. Ahmann to act as a Board unto himself. Vocal intensity does not mean widespread public endorsement. Woulda, shoulda, coulda time….

      1. -1

        What a wonderful generalization NOT based in fact.

        Each family has its own reasons for preferring one schedule over another.

        1. Actually it was a specification, of a small group of overly vocal parents who did not get their way in April. If it was generalized then this whole comment thread would be filled with comments that supporting Ahmann’s late charge.

          And, yes, each family does have their own reasons for preferring one schedule over the other; preference has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that CSD is not responsible for people’s children outside of school, but some (some) parents here seem to think CSD should manage its entire system around the parents’ work schedule and after school plans–and that is ridiculous.

          1. The issue has to do with the sleep needs of high school students and the negative impact on the students ability to learn by moving the start time 45 minutes earlier. This is nearly an hour earlier and it matters.

            The negative impact is backed by research so get informed on the real issue not this nonsense. There are so many red herring arguments floating around… It does not matter what a 17 year old thinks, the time they have to get up in college, or the fact when they work they need to get up in the morning. Who cares! This is about a specific time of childhood development and the needs of that population. Not before… Not after…

            1. Ok, back to what this thread is about; why wasn’t this addressed in April, when it was voted on? I want to know if the administration AND the rest of the board steamrolled one commissioner, and, if they did, in the face of all this serious research, why was the outcome not what people wanted?
              It really does look like the losing anti-everything-the-school-board-does side is trying to drum up support mostly because they lost and not because they know what’s right. That’s the way it looks to me.

              1. We prefer the title “Anti-everything-the-school-board-does-don’t-drive-on-the-lawn-at-Westchester Side.

                (Just kidding, I don’t even know who the other posters are unless they use clues like “Garrett Goebel”).

              2. Why wasn’t it addressed? Good question. But not a question to be addressed to the folks here who are unhappy with the approved bell schedule: a bunch of us have been speaking out about the problems this schedule posed (aka “whining”) for a long time. It should be addressed to Dr. Edwards and the people on the BOE who approved the schedule. (Actually, let me modify this a bit: the board did reject the earlier schedule that had classes starting at 7:45 and asked for a redo, with no classes starting before 8:00.)

                I’m not generally anti-BOE. I think that Decatur has an excellent school system, and I’ve been impressed with the way the decisions on reconfiguration (with 5th Ave. coming in as the new 4/5 school) and redistricting were handled: lots of information, lots of input taken seriously, and the pros and cons of various options listed explicitly. But the bell schedule has been a real trainwreck. As far as I can tell, it was approached as a relatively trivial executive decision by Dr. Edwards that didn’t require any input (or approval by the BOE), and after the collective freakout in April, they just put something together on an ad hoc basis without a lot of transparency or any sort of systematic weighing of pros and cons.

                1. @TOK – Thank you! This completely and accurately articulated my issue with the bell schedule change. This is also, I believe, the catalyst to Ahmann’s attempt to have a open discussion on the topic.

  5. BTW, listserv info indicates that there’s evidently a Facebook page that was posted when the option to poll students was declined in May. It has comments from students and others. You can find it by searching in Facebook for “Tell Decatur to not start school at 8am”.

  6. Very clear that this is a politically driven agenda. Why does Mr. Ahmann feel the need to email his plan of action to Decatur Metro?

    He very easily could have kept this to himself.

  7. If I were a Board Member, I’d be mad as hell he sent out an email intended for his fellow Board Members to the entire community.

    1. On the face of it, you’re right. The problem was, his chair and other board members left him little option. They boxed him in and they bear the responsibility for this path. They made it clear to him that using “regular channels” would result in no change.
      If you believed in something as he appears to do, and you believe debate was improperly truncated or premised on misinformation when the issue was initially decided, and you are told by the folks who control the microphone that they don’t want to help you, then what would you do? Mobilizing public support to help get a public school-related issue back on the agenda does not seem too crazy. Going along to get along has its benefits, but it has its limits, too.

      1. I support Ahmann’s reconsideration, and it is not just about the high school start time– which flies in the face of compelling evidence about the importance of later start times for adolescents– that is troubling. The superintendent made statements about support from principals that simply were not true according to other sources, and he is right to point out a real lack of documentation for the reasons Dr. Edwards cited for earlier start times for middle and high school. In addition, administrators have not engaged the parent and teacher communities in problem-solving the transportation issue, despite their knowledge that there is very strong parent support for walking and biking and that many parents are willing to volunteer their time to promote those options, easing the pressure on transportation costs. They are certainly under tremendous pressure to get Fifth Ave open on time, which put pressure on the announcement of the bell times, but it is anything but a trivial issue and there seem to be some valid concerns about how the process has been handled.

      2. That “Going along to get along…” attitude is why political change is so rare. We need more courageous elected officials.

        1. Actually, we would need a wider survey than this blog to determine the credibility of an individual in the community. This blog is good for soliciting individual opinions, new ideas, concerns, but cannot gauge community sentiment well because many readers never post responses. Now, it could have a poll function like some blogs and that might be interesting.

  8. Don’t you think you’d be asked to leave the Board (of, I don’t know, say a hospital) if you made a communication meant for the Board a public matter?

    (And by the way, Tom, I agree with your post).

    1. Why? He didn’t disclose anything that anyone said to him. Just his own email. What’s wrong with that? Isn’t transparency in government a good thing? Honestly asking.

      1. His own email intended for other members of the board. That’s like sending an email meant for your boss to everyone else in the workplace.

  9. From Patch’s live-blog of the CSD Board Meeting tonight…

    “8:34 p.m. John Ahmann provides comments. He says he plans to run for reelection for board and admits that’s one of the reasons he is asking so many questions. He said that he did so only after meetings with the community and deciding not to move out of the city. He talked about transparency and engagement. He says this comes out of the standards set by the school system. “We want to be one of the top 5 in the country. That good news is our kids are really smart.” He acknowledges Edwards’ efforts but says, “it’s only going to get tougher and harder as we get to the top.” He discussed community engagement and the strategic plan. He says, “The state is likely not going to change its course for the next three years. … If we maintain what we do, it’s going to come out of our own pocketbook. Not the state.”

    Heh? I…don’t even know where to start. Maybe it’s just phrased oddly, but, I mean, in poorly functioning representative gov’t you’re last resort is to kick – or threaten to kick – the reps out, right? But I’d hope we’re a bit better than that. Like, community feedback is important. Differing opinions only make us stronger. Taking it like a bitter pill ain’t gonna fix anything. You gotta BELIEVE that community engagement is important. UGH.

    1. Yeah, I’m not even sure what this passage even means. He decided to run for reelection only after deciding not to move out of the city? Huh?

    2. Thanks for the comments on community engagement. I was trying to articulate when I went out and met with people as I considered plans for re-elect, the issue of more intense community engagement and transparency was a big one for a significant number of people. If I had not been running for re-elect, I doubt I would have gone out as I did to really understand the issues folks wanted pushed. That is what I mean.

      Also, to a point by Bulldog, all board emails, unless personnel/legal/real estate and protected by Executive Priviledge, are public records. This is not true of emails for board members serving on the boards of not-for-profit hospitals.


      1. Of course I understand that, John.

        Board emails are public records, which we can request if we like. What I take issue with is that you sent an email that was intended for your Board members to a blog. Why don’t you just copy the entire community in on your emails from here on out?

  10. Can we address the real issue here: someone teach this guy how to use numbered lists! That formatting is ridiculous!

    1. It’s a government thing. Too much love of Roman numerals. Look at the agendas on eBoard. Or even better, try to read the Federal Register. Plus the outline default in some programs is weird, especially on email.

      I’m a fan of
      1. Normal (Arabic?) numbers
      2. Solid bullet circles, all the same
      • Font
      • Color
      • Style
      3. Using indentation
      • Instead of style of symbol
      • To indicate level
      • Of outline

      But I’m fairly stymied in html where one is supposed to use weird code in brackets which then destroys the clarity of an outline for me. But let’s see if it works:


  11. Bell change added to the Agenda for additional discussion and a vote. Board voted not to change the bell schedule.

  12. Let me get this straight, they debated and voted on this already, the one guy who voted against it is now trying to get it back on the agenda because he lost. Is that it? Or am I simplifying it too much? Bell schedule, we are having a huge discussion over a bell schedule?

    1. If Mr. Ahmann’s constituents were busting his chops over the schedule, what is the harm in revisiting it? This hardly seemed like a hijacking filibuster tactic. Perfectly fair If he is acting as their rep. If this is stirring the political pot, then that is a good example of government waste. No one will ever know the truth about such things.

      And Maybe he has a point about the lease cost though i hope no one really believes that student trans is a significant factor in making CSD a top 5 school system. And who cares about being top 5 anyway? I want my son (and eventually my daughter) to enjoy school and the process of learning. Stuff test scores and the achievement nonsense.

      1. Yeah, but the Decatur Patch Live Blog indicates that the discussion was way more interesting this time.

    2. “the one guy…because he lost”

      “we are having a huge discussion over a bell schedule?”

      Yes, and no. If you read through the comments, it’s more of a general frustration with process, perceived lack of input and transparency, and a general dissatisfaction with the how the information provided lines up with the actual facts.

      1. I painfully read through the comments and what I gather is just another example of a loud minority making much ado about a decision they didn’t like. Why is it such a huge issue? School board meetings are open to the public, seems like people had their chance to voice their opinions, but boards are elected to make decisions. If you don’t like the decision than vote them out, but don’t whine and carry on about the decision if it doesn’t go your way….the case about the parent not getting his kid into Oakhurst (news flash he recently got in because there were some drop outs) is his fault, registration in February and he waited to May…thats simply his mistake not a referendum on anyother big issue….although many “posters” like to make it that way….we are talkign about a bell schedule, think about it…

        1. I disagree. The folks you’re classifying as a loud minority include students, graduates, teachers brave enough to buck the party line, the parents who step up and into our schools the help out, past and present PTA, PTO, PTSA executive board members as well as School Leadership Team members from many of the schools including those affected by the proposed amendment.

          It is an issue for the issues pointed out in the post to which you responded. Some of the facts which influenced the vote in May, turned out not to be so factual after all. The frustration, isn’t this singular instance, but the fact that we see issues like this pop up again and again… and again.

          As to your latter point, I agree. This decision has been made. The larger decision about a need for a culture change on openness, transparency, accountability, and community engagement will have to wait.

          1. Amen, Garrett.

            The real issue is not the Bell Schedule but rather the every changing rationale from CSD as to why they are changing it and what they hope to achieve.

            We are repeatedly offered platitudes that a particular change is being done in the best interest of the children or artificial deadlines but when cornered with facts that appear to contradict CSD’s decisions – the reasons for the decisions or why they cannot be considered in light of new information seems to change.

            All in all, I get the feeling that the CSD administration gives lip service to actually desiring parental involvment in the operatio of the system and would much prefer the parents to just go away and let them run the system as they see fit.

        2. I bet you do not have children in Decatur public schools. If you did, you would not say this is not a big issue.

          1. Then how do you explain the multitudes of people who do have children in CSD and do not think this issue is all that important?

            1. Maybe people with only 1 child to get ready, instead of 3 or 4 going to different locations. People who don’t have teenagers yet, people who have 1 parent in the household who doesn’t work, people who don’t worry about after school issues for their children.

              Most of the qualms seem to be with the lack of parental input about the matter and there isn’t a comprehensive list with numbers of yays & nays for all people affected. Perhaps if there would have been, your question would have been answered. All we can do is speculate. Who knows…

              1. OK, if the issue is parental input, then I’m confident I speak for many when I say this: Decisions about how to run CSD should continue to be made by the Board and the administration with limited input from parents. Not zero input, but limited. For my tax dollar, I want a professionally administered school system and a board that makes decisions based on their own judgment — not leaders who are constantly reacting and responding to “engaged parents” that bring their individual agendas to bear on each and every little thing. To be honest, I think already CSD spends way too much time and energy trying to accommodate parents who want to feel consulted; and trying to ensure everyone is satisfied with the degree pf “consensus building.” I can’t imagine trying to do what they do under such a constant barrage of harrying and nitpicking.

                1. I’m a happy CSD parent and I heartily endorse this message. When it comes to my kid’s education, it seems a perfectly reasonable instinct to instill more trust in trained educators and administrators — for all their human flaws — than in a neighbor who sells health insurance or manages a Wendy’s. If the board screws up beyond an acceptable margin of error, I can vote against them in the fall. What’s my recourse against the self-motivated parent trying to undermine the system?

                  STG for school board!

                    1. I’m flattered, but….”If drafted, I will not run; if nominated, I will not accept; if elected, I will not serve.” I do, however, reserve the right to climb up on my soapbox when the notion strikes.

                  1. As Garrett pointed out, many of the folks voicing concerns have extensive education experience. Moreover, I imagine many Wendy’s managers and insurance folks can exercise good judgment and offer useful insights, as well. By the way, our board is comprised of one unemployed person (at least recently unemployed) who previously worked in communications, one paralegal, one consultant, one lobbyist and one quasi-government (non-education) employee who was a government (non-education) employee before that. None of them have an education background. They bring to the table good experience that is always worth considering and they are owed our thanks and respect for their hard work. They are, however, not due any deference in the face of both procedural and factual flaws in their analysis. If our schools teach anything, I hope it is to NOT adopt an attitude to leave unchallenged that which you believe is wrong.

                    1. Tom, I think you are conflating two different points that Scott is making: (1) He has more confidence in the professional administrators and educators to run CSD than in miscellaneous other people in the community who happen to have opinions, and (2) If elected board members don’t perform, they can be voted out, unlike miscellaneous opinionated people, if the latter are allowed to dictate policy.

                      Scott, if I’m misrepresenting you, by all means speak up.

                    2. As you might imagine, the same conclusion applies to board members and administrators. Careful work by any party is worth considering, and proposals from any source that are grounded on something other than careful work should be challenged. Moreover, when the board ceases to provide a serious check on the administration, as I feel is the case here, it becomes all the more incumbent on others to fill that role.

                2. Right on Smalltown. I don’t ever remember my parents getting bent out of shape by something like the start time of school or expecting the school board to take their input into something like that. They got bent out of shape by things like bringing home crappy grades or cutting class, etc. They start time of school was when they said it was. I had to get to junior high and high school by 7:15 AM and it was the best school in the school district.

                  I think CSD’s problem is not that they don’t take parents input into account, it is that they have taken it into account too much, so much so that certain parents think that they ought to be making decisions that the Administrators are hired to make.

                3. Yeah, an active and engaged population sure is a pain in the neck! Look, a part of me just wants to say, you’ve got citizens and parents in your business so you better learn how to deal with it so as to avoid repeated blow-ups. But in fact, one of Decatur’s greatest assets as a community is the number of people who are attentive and actively engaged. That especially goes for the school system, whose two greatest assets are its teacher and its engaged parents. Yes, I want professionals running the show, and yes that public engagement will come with cranks and squeaky wheels. But Decatur does have real talent and skill sets — much better than your average bear — such that our professionals should take advantage of to assist in their professional duties, that they politically would be foolish to neglect or disdain, and are in fact morally obligated to consult.

                4. Well put, smalltowngal.

                  I think we have smart, capable people running our school system. Let’s let them do it. I’m not saying that parents shouldn’t be involved in the process–they are stakeholders as are teachers, students, and taxpayers who aren’t parents. As voters we elect the school board, as parents we can run for a position on SLTs, serve on the calendar committee, participate in all the surveys on campus portal, etc. There were many parents from SLTs on the reconfiguration committee. And wider parent input was considered during the reconfiguration process as well– remember that the original recommendation of the committee was for a 4-5 academy to be built at Renfroe, but since there was not widespread support for this from parents, under direction from the school board, the committee was reconvened to explore alternatives. And, perhaps largely due to parent concerns, the adopted bell schedule has no start times before 8:00 am. So I cannot buy that the school system does not consider input from parents. But it would be a bad, and dangerous thing for CSD to allow themselves to be completely influenced by parents.
                  The bell schedule isn’t ideal for my family by any means. I go to work before my kids get up in the morning and I will have 3 kids at 3 schools for the next 5 years that my spouse has to get to school before he goes to work. I just want a bell schedule in place so that we can adjust our lives to it. CSD is not required to run for my personal convenience.

              2. If one has three or four kids, I think it is VERY unrealistic to expect school start times to be totally convenient. Whoever truly thinks that needs to get a grip on their sense of entitlement and desire to make everything easy and convenient for their kids.

              3. 3 or 4 kids? That is your choice and you must accept responsibility for the extra work that is involved with that choice.

                1. Re choice: maybe, maybe not. One can plan for a certain number of children but those cute little eggs can surprise, before and after fertilization, by splitting into multiple beings. I have a colleague who planned for three children, but got four children when the last pregnancy was twins. I’m sure there’s lots of folks with two or more children, who were surprised when more than one embryo showed up on the ultrasound. And fetal reduction is not always medically possible or morally acceptable.

                  And remember that punishing parents for poor planning is actually punishing the children. They cannot help it if their parent(s) have to get to work early and don’t have a lot of options for early care. They are the ones stressed out if mornings are difficult and its their learning, testing scores, and social/emotional status that’s affected. I’m more worried about the impact of bell schedules on children than on parents.

                2. It just makes sense that school start times for the youngest kids shouldn’t be after many parents’ very common work starting time of 8AM.

        3. Don’t attack the person… discuss the issue.

          It is an issue for families with school age children.

          I am very thankful that John Ahmann is addressing the concern. Decatur is a TINY school district, and as such, over a hundred signatures on an ad-hoc petition is certainly not a small percentage speaking out.

          This item had little to no communication about when and where this is being discussed. In fact, it was stated it was an admin decision. So, it is false to then say “see, no one cares” because of the size of the turnout.

          1. And actually the audience was pretty full last night, at least compared to usual. Usually, the chairs are empty with something like two administrators and the lady from Decatur Patch in the front, two principals and the two teachers being “spotlighted” in the middle, and Andrea Berry from EdTV and Paul Jones in the back. It feels empty like a gym…oh wait, it is a gym. And the good news is that the stage still has the beautiful hand-made painted wood set framing it so it’s ready to re-used by students as soon as Westchester reopens. 🙂

  13. I painfully read through all the comments and what I gathered was that I’m soooo happy I decided long ago not to have kids. Apparently procreation can really make otherwise sane and rational people devolve into something akin to monkeys slinging sh*t when it comes to debates over issues like bell schedules.

    1. I do have kids and deal with the morning schedules like any normal person does when you have to adjust – you ADJUST!! My mom was a single working mother and had 3 kids at different stages of school, somehow I don’t remember her bitching about the bell schedule…..

      Signed sane, rational parent

      1. I agree. I had two working parents and as an older elementary/early middle schooler I had to get myself to school (in Miami) because they left the house before I did. I remember no gnashing of teeth at all regarding this. That’s the way it was so we dealt with it. I assume people who have more than one child (I have two) took stuff like school logistics into consideration and realized that kids make your life difficult, PERIOD, and it’s something they’d better get used to.

        Besides, no matter WHAT the board does SOMEONE is going to complain so they should just do what they need to do. (For the record, both my kids will start at 8:45, which to me is too late. I wish they started earlier because it will make our afternoons/evenings rushed. But WHATEVER. We will deal.)

      2. OK, Boogaloo and decatur mom are officially removed from my sh*t slinging monkey classification along with the other (dear god, I hope *majority*) of parents who will just do whatever it takes to get their kids to school at whatever time CSD decides it would like to have them there. Seems to me the CSD school board needs to tell the parents what my parents told me whenever I asked why I couldn’t have something my way: Because they said so!

  14. I totally support the later schedule along with getting a new bus system that would be more flexible with our needs. not dekalb county’s. read the research and you’ll believe. if not, you’re just wanting to complain.

  15. I am still confused – was this topic put to rest for this year or not?

    I saw a post that said something about a 4-1 vote., but I wasn’t sure if that was as true statement.

  16. Let me say this, and I speak for no one, applesauce is creepy but my kids love it. I hope that summarizes this issue. And good day to you all.

  17. In response to pleasestop’s comment about tom stubbs: unfair, incorrect, and very rude. Tom stubbs is a smart man of integrity who knows how to ask good questions. I’m always surprised by personal attacks on this otherwise healthy forum for civil discourse. You should be ashamed.

  18. Maybe we need to follow the advice of professional facilitators and use more “I” statements and less “you” statements and this will all feel a bit more civil…: (They are mum on “we” statements 🙂 )

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