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	<title>Comments on: Is &#8220;Congestion Relief&#8221; a Red Herring?</title>
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	<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/</link>
	<description>Decatur Georgia News, Events, Atlanta News</description>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-147164</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-147164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;That’s why the only effective deterrent to traffic congestion is stuff you don’t want, like population declines or job losses in your area. There’s no really GOOD solution, because it’s really not a solvable problem.  Yes, you can minimize congestion for a time, but ultimately, its in both your interest and the interest of your elected leaders for you to soon again be waiting in a line somewhere, trying to get to work.&quot;

DM, this post and especially the last paragraph get at the real issue: Growth. You are right that politicians use congestion relief as a way to persuade people to go along with their plans. Politicians and planners also like to scare everyone by asking people to imagine what metro Atlanta will look like with 3 million more people in the next several decades. However, they never mention that they are putting the cart before the horse when talking in these terms. The truth is the &quot;expected&quot; growth will not occur if these transportation projects are not completed.

But I&#039;m okay with that. I actually do not want 3 million more people to move to metro Atlanta. I moved here over 30 years ago and could honestly do without all the growth of the 90s and 00s. Metro Atlanta business leaders and boosters start the meme that we need more growth, more homes, more jobs, more shopping centers, more diversity, more this and more that. Those ideas seem to have passed through the water supply so that many metro Atlantans repeat them and honestly, but naively, believe that neverending growth is good and possible. So long as you play this zero-sum, rat-race game, you are right DM, you will create more congestion and exacerbate existing problems by encouraging millions more to move here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That’s why the only effective deterrent to traffic congestion is stuff you don’t want, like population declines or job losses in your area. There’s no really GOOD solution, because it’s really not a solvable problem.  Yes, you can minimize congestion for a time, but ultimately, its in both your interest and the interest of your elected leaders for you to soon again be waiting in a line somewhere, trying to get to work.&#8221;</p>
<p>DM, this post and especially the last paragraph get at the real issue: Growth. You are right that politicians use congestion relief as a way to persuade people to go along with their plans. Politicians and planners also like to scare everyone by asking people to imagine what metro Atlanta will look like with 3 million more people in the next several decades. However, they never mention that they are putting the cart before the horse when talking in these terms. The truth is the &#8220;expected&#8221; growth will not occur if these transportation projects are not completed.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m okay with that. I actually do not want 3 million more people to move to metro Atlanta. I moved here over 30 years ago and could honestly do without all the growth of the 90s and 00s. Metro Atlanta business leaders and boosters start the meme that we need more growth, more homes, more jobs, more shopping centers, more diversity, more this and more that. Those ideas seem to have passed through the water supply so that many metro Atlantans repeat them and honestly, but naively, believe that neverending growth is good and possible. So long as you play this zero-sum, rat-race game, you are right DM, you will create more congestion and exacerbate existing problems by encouraging millions more to move here.</p>
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		<title>By: Decatur Metro</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-146349</link>
		<dc:creator>Decatur Metro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-146349</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I realized the other day...with all the squawking about the HOT lanes, did any of the articles about it detail how they are supposed to work?  I had to come across it in the article linked to in the post above to really understand it&#039;s purpose and how it worked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realized the other day&#8230;with all the squawking about the HOT lanes, did any of the articles about it detail how they are supposed to work?  I had to come across it in the article linked to in the post above to really understand it&#8217;s purpose and how it worked.</p>
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		<title>By: smalltowngal</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-146348</link>
		<dc:creator>smalltowngal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-146348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[IMO the gasoline tax and road tolls should be turned up until they provide 90-95% of the cost of building and maintaining roads. I don&#039;t seem it happening any time soon, though. Look at how people squawked about the HOT lanes on I-85, and how our governor responded.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO the gasoline tax and road tolls should be turned up until they provide 90-95% of the cost of building and maintaining roads. I don&#8217;t seem it happening any time soon, though. Look at how people squawked about the HOT lanes on I-85, and how our governor responded.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-146343</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-146343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gasoline taxes, sales taxes (yes, you pay sales tax in addition to gasoline tax in Georgia and 75% goes straight to GDOT), tolls, etc.  only provide 50 to 60 percent of the money needed to build and maintain roads.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gasoline taxes, sales taxes (yes, you pay sales tax in addition to gasoline tax in Georgia and 75% goes straight to GDOT), tolls, etc.  only provide 50 to 60 percent of the money needed to build and maintain roads.</p>
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		<title>By: GM</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-146334</link>
		<dc:creator>GM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-146334</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure the government is the only answer to this.  WHy not make highways use based?  To the best of my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong) we pay for our expressways through a gas tax....if we remove the gas tax and toll all express ways that may be a way to deal with it.  If you actaully have to pay for what you use it may make you think twice about living so far away from work.

I never drive on the exrpressway, but pay for them through a gas tax.  I&#039;d rather just be tolled and save money at the pump.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure the government is the only answer to this.  WHy not make highways use based?  To the best of my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong) we pay for our expressways through a gas tax&#8230;.if we remove the gas tax and toll all express ways that may be a way to deal with it.  If you actaully have to pay for what you use it may make you think twice about living so far away from work.</p>
<p>I never drive on the exrpressway, but pay for them through a gas tax.  I&#8217;d rather just be tolled and save money at the pump.</p>
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		<title>By: David Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-146322</link>
		<dc:creator>David Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-146322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This whole discussion would also be incomplete without discussing race and crime. It&#039;s not uncommon for OTP to believe ITP is a crime-ridden nest full of people that don&#039;t look, think, or act like us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole discussion would also be incomplete without discussing race and crime. It&#8217;s not uncommon for OTP to believe ITP is a crime-ridden nest full of people that don&#8217;t look, think, or act like us.</p>
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		<title>By: David Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-146319</link>
		<dc:creator>David Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-146319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Geoff,

Dense towns were more for communal defense than wanting to live shoulder-to-shoulder with one&#039;s neighbor. Protecting one&#039;s life with expensive walls and militia took precedence over expansive rooms in one&#039;s home. Transportation, as you point out, was also key. Few people could afford a horse, so they had to haul everything by hand (cart) or pay someone with a cart to deliver it. Furthermore, construction techniques and difficulty in heating them made it more difficult to build larger homes. Insulation was poor and Wood/coal was not cheap. Building materials were also more expensive. Last, but certainly not least, there wasn&#039;t a lot to *do* at home besides eat and sleep. Sure, the wealthy could read and play/listen to music, but there weren&#039;t any home theater systems, computers, gaming tables, home workshops, etc.,. in people&#039;s homes back then. So, people literally didn&#039;t have enough self-entertainment items to fill their homes with.

Yet, the *desire* to have a larger residence within one&#039;s means has always existed.

I work OTP way up in John&#039;s Creek and have had countless conversations with my co-workers about how much time they spend in their cars any given week, spend on fuel, the proximity of restaurants and cultural events, etc.,. and while some of them logically understand the &quot;quality of life&quot; side of things, they just can&#039;t seem to shake the notion that they must have a huge-ass house.

ITP - &quot;If you shortened the commute time for everyone in your family, you could spend more time doing the things you enjoy&quot;
OTP - &quot;But, how would I fit all of my shit into such a small house ?&quot;
ITP - &quot;How much of your shit do you actually use ?&quot;
OTP - &quot;It doesn&#039;t matter. I like having it&quot;
ITP - *sigh*
OTP - &quot;Besides, I heard city school systems suck, and we can&#039;t afford private schools&quot;
ITP - &quot;For the most part, yes, but there are some excellent in-town public schools&quot;
OTP - &quot;Well, if you say so&quot; *disbelieving look*
ITP - *sigh*
ITP - &quot;What about having easy access to a wide variety of restaurants, cultural events, exposing your children to different cultures, etc.,.&quot;
OTP - &quot;Oh, you mean The Braves, The Varsity, The Fox, and The Aquarium ? That&#039;s all we ever like going downtown for once or twice a year.&quot;
ITP - *sigh*

That&#039;s paraphrased, but sums it up pretty well. Can lead a horse to water, but...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff,</p>
<p>Dense towns were more for communal defense than wanting to live shoulder-to-shoulder with one&#8217;s neighbor. Protecting one&#8217;s life with expensive walls and militia took precedence over expansive rooms in one&#8217;s home. Transportation, as you point out, was also key. Few people could afford a horse, so they had to haul everything by hand (cart) or pay someone with a cart to deliver it. Furthermore, construction techniques and difficulty in heating them made it more difficult to build larger homes. Insulation was poor and Wood/coal was not cheap. Building materials were also more expensive. Last, but certainly not least, there wasn&#8217;t a lot to *do* at home besides eat and sleep. Sure, the wealthy could read and play/listen to music, but there weren&#8217;t any home theater systems, computers, gaming tables, home workshops, etc.,. in people&#8217;s homes back then. So, people literally didn&#8217;t have enough self-entertainment items to fill their homes with.</p>
<p>Yet, the *desire* to have a larger residence within one&#8217;s means has always existed.</p>
<p>I work OTP way up in John&#8217;s Creek and have had countless conversations with my co-workers about how much time they spend in their cars any given week, spend on fuel, the proximity of restaurants and cultural events, etc.,. and while some of them logically understand the &#8220;quality of life&#8221; side of things, they just can&#8217;t seem to shake the notion that they must have a huge-ass house.</p>
<p>ITP &#8211; &#8220;If you shortened the commute time for everyone in your family, you could spend more time doing the things you enjoy&#8221;<br />
OTP &#8211; &#8220;But, how would I fit all of my shit into such a small house ?&#8221;<br />
ITP &#8211; &#8220;How much of your shit do you actually use ?&#8221;<br />
OTP &#8211; &#8220;It doesn&#8217;t matter. I like having it&#8221;<br />
ITP &#8211; *sigh*<br />
OTP &#8211; &#8220;Besides, I heard city school systems suck, and we can&#8217;t afford private schools&#8221;<br />
ITP &#8211; &#8220;For the most part, yes, but there are some excellent in-town public schools&#8221;<br />
OTP &#8211; &#8220;Well, if you say so&#8221; *disbelieving look*<br />
ITP &#8211; *sigh*<br />
ITP &#8211; &#8220;What about having easy access to a wide variety of restaurants, cultural events, exposing your children to different cultures, etc.,.&#8221;<br />
OTP &#8211; &#8220;Oh, you mean The Braves, The Varsity, The Fox, and The Aquarium ? That&#8217;s all we ever like going downtown for once or twice a year.&#8221;<br />
ITP &#8211; *sigh*</p>
<p>That&#8217;s paraphrased, but sums it up pretty well. Can lead a horse to water, but&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: At Home in Decatur</title>
		<link>http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/10/11/is-congestion-relief-a-red-herring/#comment-146093</link>
		<dc:creator>At Home in Decatur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decaturmetro.com/?p=20705#comment-146093</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the people who want large houses are often inexperienced home owners.  They don&#039;t understand that even the most expensive, newest homes eventually develop wear, tear, walls that need painting, roofs that need repairing, foundations that need help, etc.  And those incredibly high vaulted ceilings have light bulbs that are hard to replace, ceiling fans that are hard to fix, and cobwebs in places that no extension broom will ever go.  Closet space, large bathrooms, and large kitchens, I understand.  The rest is just room that will eventually get dirty, chipped, banged, moldy, buggy, and cobwebby.  Large homes were maintainable in the days when the owners could afford full-time housekeepers, cooks, grounds people, nannies, etc.  Now they are like a brand new expensive car--they depreciate fast and need expensive, constant maintenance.  Only the land holds value (if ITP, OTP that doesn&#039;t even seem true anymore.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the people who want large houses are often inexperienced home owners.  They don&#8217;t understand that even the most expensive, newest homes eventually develop wear, tear, walls that need painting, roofs that need repairing, foundations that need help, etc.  And those incredibly high vaulted ceilings have light bulbs that are hard to replace, ceiling fans that are hard to fix, and cobwebs in places that no extension broom will ever go.  Closet space, large bathrooms, and large kitchens, I understand.  The rest is just room that will eventually get dirty, chipped, banged, moldy, buggy, and cobwebby.  Large homes were maintainable in the days when the owners could afford full-time housekeepers, cooks, grounds people, nannies, etc.  Now they are like a brand new expensive car&#8211;they depreciate fast and need expensive, constant maintenance.  Only the land holds value (if ITP, OTP that doesn&#8217;t even seem true anymore.)</p>
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