It’s looking less and less likely that the City Schools of Decatur can build its way out of its enrollment-growth problem.
Anyone who has an opinion, voiced or unvoiced, regarding the City Schools enrollment issue needs to read this just-released Decaturish report from last night’s School Board meeting regarding how Decatur is rapidly reaching its debt limit.
A few snippets to whet your appetite. It shouldn’t take much…
As the School Board sat in the new municipal center on Feb. 10, they saw the city approaching [the debt] limit. The School Board needs to issue even more debt to expand its current facilities. Decatur’s constitutional debt limit is 10 percent of the assessed value of its current tax digest, according to Dianne McNabb with Public Financial Management, an advisor for CSD.
At the end of the School Board meeting, board members unanimously decided they’d ask the Decatur City Commission to put an $82 million bond referendum on the ballot this year. But that would only allow the school system to build out its facilities to accommodate about 90 percent of its enrollment projections.
And that money ain’t free either. Decatur homeowners, please read on…
A bond issue would have to be approved by the voters. Taxpayers would have willingly increase their own millage rate by 4.84 mills if the city borrows $82 million for its schools. For a $300,000 home, that’s $726.51 in additional taxes per year, starting in 2017. For a $700,000 home, that’s an additional $1,695 in taxes.
There are other options to building that have been mentioned here before and are starting to get mentioned by Superintendent Edwards . Year-round schooling or split-shifts would split kids up into terms/groups that go to school in different cycles (be it weeks or times of day) allowing for greater utilization of existing buildings. This hasn’t been a popular option in the past, but all of the “better” options are beginning to look quite concerning in the light of day.
It seems like its time to put ALL options out on the table and work this thing out. Congenially, of course.
Will be curious to see what impact all this has on Decatur property values. Maybe it can burst the bubble that prices a lot of families out of upsizing within Decatur or moving here.
I’m certainly not hoping all our property values tank, but the price tags on family-sized homes lately are so high that I can’t believe a correction won’t come.
I don’t think a declining entry price would going to do anything to slow residential growth. Decatur already has some of the highest (the highest maybe?) taxes in the state, and it historically it hasn’t been a disincentive. If you are in the position to drop $700k on a house, taxes going up $1,500 a year isn’t going to be a big deterrent.
I meant more that perceived issues with the school system might make people less willing to do whatever it takes to afford a house in 30030….
“If you are in the position to drop $700k on a house, taxes going up $1,500 a year isn’t going to be a big deterrent.”
I used to believe this. I don’t anymore. Many people in homes that expensive are really reaching to get into them, financially, and are at the very limits of what they can swing on a monthly cash flow basis. An extra $1,500 can definitely hurt those people. Not everyone who possesses the trappings of wealth is actually wealthy — quite the opposite.
I can see making the case that people may be reaching and stretching a bit by spending $400k for a “cozy” bungalow because it’s literally the cheapest thing that got them in the door. A tax increase is a likely a significant line item budget hit for them.
Folks spending $700k . . .not so much. They likely had less expensive options available. People spending $700k are not buying the cheapest thing they can, just to get into the district. Those cheaper options might lack a soaking tub in the master, a Subzero kitchen, and a 2-slot detached garage, but they certainly exist.
Precisely this.
Maybe we’re talking past one another, but I’m not saying they are buying the cheapest thing they can — I’m saying they bought the most expensive thing they could possibly get qualified for. They could have purchased the $400k home, but they did not want to live without the Subzero, etc. Keep in mind that banks have again brought downpayments on jumbos to 5% precisely because so many buyers can’t afford to put down $140,000 on that $700k house (i.e., they’re not really all that wealthy). And I think you’d be surprised how many $700k buyers are swimming in debt and have very little cash cushion to fall back on.
That is a little over $100/month, or in other words, one night out a month. If that forces someone in a $700k home to move, I have little sympathy for them or their poor financial decisions. Those people aren’t eating Ramen every night. They are out being seen.
No sympathy here either — only point is that I don’t share the assumption that big house = room in the budget for a tax hike.
Awesome!
Everyone here has everyone else’s “Fair Share” and financials just figured out…
You have absolutely no idea of anyone’s situation today in a 700K house or the right to expect them to live with whatever changes you deem punishable to them. What about the guy who moved here into the 700K house who lost his job and had to get a different one? Or the unexpected medical problems? The Divorce alimony? So 1,200K can be a big deal to anyone just as the additional 60/per month can be a big deal for someone with the 300K home.
I could sure use a crystal ball on my finances since everyone seems to know…
Have an awesome day..
“I could sure use a crystal ball on my finances since everyone seems to know…”
I believe Dem’s point was about those who spend up to the very limits of what they “qualify” for at the time of purchase. And since such people indeed didn’t have a crystal ball, it’s perfectly reasonable to question the wisdom of such a decision.
You are right. I have no clue about anyone’s situation, and it appears you may be going through a rough time. But, if someone in a $700k house can’t afford a minimal tax increase, perhaps they should sell and buy a cheaper house. The monthly savings would exceed the proposed annual tax increase. Or, more accurately, I don’t think citywide policies should be influenced by poor financial decisions of a few residents.
Yea. I agree. But it all adds up at the end of the day or could. And life is hard indeed for some people and selling the house and not being able to get into a new one is always reality. This is why every decision for a penny voted on and allocated/used no matter how insignificant it might be to you now can matter. I am not saying taxes aren’t needed but one should make sure taxes are appropriated to where they are needed responsibly before collecting more. Something that is a problem on a national level on both sides of the house.
“An extra $1,500 can definitely hurt those people. Not everyone who possesses the trappings of wealth is actually wealthy — quite the opposite.”
+1501.
That may be true, but I can’t bring myself to muster up a lot of sympathy when there are options out there at half that price point. If you can’t afford your house and still live within your means, maybe it’s time to downsize.
and those tax increases don’t even address the major spike in operating costs we will see. With or without building.
split shifts and split terms sound like a logistical nightmare for anyone with kids at multiple schools whose schedules happen to be anti-aligned. Or parents of multiple children in the same school with “splits” that are not aligned. Trying to build balanced class rosters around those familial requirements also sounds logistically prohibitive.
Good point. But couldn’t siblings be guaranteed to all be a part of the same cycle?
Trying to schedule 4,000 (maybe 7,000) kids like this across a system with 4 different school configurations, while maintaining balanced class sizes, sounds like a pretty monumental undertaking. And it’s not a one-time deal: it’d have to re-done annually from scratch as parents grow their brood, kids matriculate between schools, and people move in and out of the area.
Understood. But what’s the preferable alternative?
Not implying there is one. Just saying I’m glad I’m not the one managing that database, or fielding the calls from angry parents when they are dissatisfied with how their “alignments” work out.
Gotcha. I would have to believe that there is some sort of software out there already that given the proper parameters, could sort everyone into terms or whatever quite easily. But you’re right about fielding complaints from parents. That would not be fun. But I think that hitting the debt limit would be even less fun.
And if there isn’t, we should invent it and get rich as hell.
Not having 4 different school configurations. That is a Decatur-specific logistical complication, and it makes transportation way more complicated.
(Not against FAVE — one of my kids had some great experiences there — but having another school schedule does make the busing and scheduling more complex)
I’m not necessarily in favor of split shifts or tracking out but it certainly can be done and is being done in much larger systems than ours, for example: Wake County Public Schools (Raleigh, NC).
Sooooooo, you’re saying that it’s probably time for this childless couple who bought low a few years ago to cash out an easy few hundred grand and enjoy life in Lakebriartuckercliffside?
#notreallydecatur
Not to mention that if you’re not already AMT’d on your federal taxes, another local tax hike might well get you there. So you get a double whammy — more local taxes which also raise your federal income taxes.
Pretty much exactly what we’ve chosen to do. In the four years we’ve owned our Oakhurst home, the value has skyrocketed. We’re cashing out, moving to the other side of Oakhurst but one block out of the city. We’ll have the same distance walk to Oakhurst, be closer to downtown Decatur, closer to Kirkwood, and closer to the dog park.
I plan on doing exactly that in ten years after my youngest graduates. Hoping my property taxes don’t break me before then.
🙂
Wow. Didn’t see this coming although there have been rogue voices out there all along warning us. But loans to build always seemed available while operating budgets were tight. This makes the decision to close Westchester and Fifth Avenue, then immediately building on to Clairemont and Winnona Park, and later Fifth Avenue and Oakhurst, seem all the more short-sighted. The loan debt was mounting. The high school and middle school renovations were necessary, IMHO, under any configuration.
I’m not sure it’s the best time to whip out the old “strollers all over Oakhurst!” argument. We’re all in this together at this point, and pointing fingers only guarantees that those folks will be hesitant to agree with your POV down the road regardless if it’s on-point or not.
Yeah, “we told you so” isn’t a real motivator. But actually, we didn’t tell them so when it comes to debt ceilings. I never heard a word about debt ceilings back in the day. There were folks talking about wasting taxpayer money but those non-specific statements didn’t resonate because we were all focused on immediate decisions, not long range consequences that weren’t on the discussion table.
how hard is it to change the City’s charter, as mentioned in the Decaturish article? The City’s going to need to borrow money for things beyond the school system. Raise the limit, uncouple the school and the City, or both. I’m not a fan of increasing debt, but with the cost of capital being so low it seems like a better option to fix this problem for the long term thru new construction versus some of the band-aid solutions like staggered schedules. And then focus on improving revenue because there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
I think changing the charter requires either legislative action from the state or a local referendum. Or both.
So for me this would mean an increase of $60/month to ensure our school system can accommodate 90% of our enrollement projections. St Thomas Moore is $596/month for EACH child. When they get to high school, St Pius X is $1000/month for EACH child. And those are the *affordable* private schools. City Schools of Decatur is still a better deal than I could get anywhere else ITP.
I appreciate the level-headed response. Let’s just remember that it’s 90% of enrollment projections . . .without accounting for annexation.
Two things:
1. I don’t think the tax increase math is correct – don’t we get taxed at half the assessed rate?
2. I think building to the 90% projection is the smart thing to do. The last 10% can be covered with trailers, IF needed. And I don’t think we should be borrowing money to build school capacity for an annexation that might not even happen. In fact, if an annexation happens, then the tax digest increases, and we have more borrowing capacity. That’s when we borrow and build for that scenario, not now.
I completely agree with your second point. Further, the issues faced by CSD are completely out in the open and undoubtedly have begun to deter potential buyers. Living in a good school cluster in DeKalb will be much more appealing to many than the prospect of split schools in CoD. Hopefully those projections will start going down within a couple of years.
Maybe, but the alternative to CSD schools for many would be another public school, not a private school.
PJ makes a good point. Private school parents are paying for the full cost of education for their children, and s/he illustrates just how high that cost can be. As high as COD property taxes seem to be, CSD parents are not paying anything really close to the cost of education of their children
I favor some sort of means-tested student user fee. While your children attend CSD, you pay something extra. Surely not something that reflects the full cost of education, because I believe it is also the obligation of property owners to pay for their community costs. But users of the schools could pay something more that offsets the tax burden of the property owners.
In this system, living in the COD (whether you own property or not) gives you the absolute right to attend CSD. (Nobody has a right to attend any private school.) Attending the school saddles you with the obligation to cover a bit more of the cost of that education, again, on the basis of a means-test.
I realize this is not the “free” public education everybody is used to. It is apostasy, no doubt. And I don’t know to what degree it solves the problem of funding the urgent capital needs. Without doing any math, this mechanism could also have the effect of relieving some of the demand for the CSD. It might, for example, make living in the new rental apartments a less attractive option for some.
This idea seems to me like a natural extension of the completely f’ed up political climate we’ve created for ourselves, where state and federal governments have asserted they have no interest whatsoever in serving the vital infrastructure needs of communities. What I mean to imply by the latter is that over the horizon, there is probably not a cavalry mounted on sparkle ponies, poised to rush in and save the day.
OK DM, you can ban me now.
Decatur could always annex to the west. Annexation of Druid Hills would net them 2 ready to go school properties with 2700 potential seats. They would pick up tax digest to increase their debt limit. If they took Medlock, they would get a third school as well, and face a less daunting political fight. I know Decatur wants commercial, but high end residential which does not put major league constraints on infrastructure is the next best thing.
Yes, it’s times like this that make people remember just how small Decatur is. Small may be good for lifestyle and management, but it’s not when it comes to municipal debt. More households would make borrowing easier, but it would push CSD over the edge. What a conundrum we are in!
I’m wondering if anyone has looked at this, from a numbers perspective. Obviously commercial is better than residential, but expensive residential is better than less expensive residential. Plus, if you get a new school or 2 out of the deal? I bet Druid Hills would be against this, however.
There is already a lot of consternation about Druid Hills taking schools with them if annexed by Atlanta. I suspect the people opposed to DH being annexed by Atlanta would have the same reservations against it being annexed by Decatur.
To Ben’s point, the Druid Hills Civic Association did approach Decatur about this idea in early 2014 and was told effectively thanks but no thanks due to the fact that it would alter the character of the city. It may be worth asking again. My perception is that Druid Hills would generally be supportive of this, but with a vocal minority against. Politically, there would be opposition to it from anyone outside of the annexed portions, but unlike going into Atlanta, where Atlanta has remained neutral, in this case you would have both a push –Druid Hills and a pull — Decatur. I can see this getting through the DeKalb delegation.
So Druid Hills annexation alters the character of the city, but a Ross Dress for Less and Patel Plaza don’t. Interesting
Representatives of both Medlock and Clairmont Heights met with COD repeatedly to ask to be included in Decatur. Both were told, in essence, “We are not interested in your residential areas, please stop asking”. COD also told unincorporated Druid Hills “no thanks”.All three neighborhoods are now (albeit reluctantly) working toward annexation by City of Atlanta to avoid being an unincorporated area of DeKalb.
Do you really think they would vote “yes” to annexation by Decatur?
If they still felt that Decatur was a better long-term option, then yes, I would absolutely see them putting aside hurt feelings to vote “yes” for annexation.
LivingInLimbo, um, YES. After initially being told no, those neighborhoods continued to ask for meetings with CoD and continued to ask to be annexed. They would HAPPILY take annexation into Decatur over their other choices. They may be mad at the city now, but they’d say yes in two seconds flat.
I am not exaggerating in stating that if Decatur asked, with the power of social media, we would have an 80% up vote from Medlock in under an hour. Clairmont Heights would be around 70% and Druid Hills would be around 55-65% in favor of annexation into Decatur. Decatur is so attractive to those in who are “in-town” but under the heal of the Dekalb School System and county government, that I believe annexation could happen by the 60% method (ie not require legislation).
I actually don’t think it would be that easy. I know it’s a popular assumption on this blog Medlock is jus’ jelly about not being annexed, but the truth is that the support within the neighborhood for Medlock going into Decatur was never a sure thing. The repeated meetings with CoD were not borne of desperation but more making sure every option was thoroughly explored. If it came down to it I think there would be many who would not support it because it would be a hardship on seniors.
Personally I am no longer in favor of being annexed to Decatur because of the school situation. I’m sure they are wonderful, but I think sometimes the wonderfulness is overstated. Right now APS seems like a viable option so I hope that’s where we end up.
Let me tell you how it will be
There’s one for you, nineteen for me
Cos I’m the taxman, yeah, I’m the taxman
I would be interested to see capacity information from other school districts. From my understanding, most school districts are over capacity at all times. Isn’t it normal to have unmet capacity in fast growing areas like Decatur?
We are so fu**ed.
OK, maybe I’m (half) joking. But this is a pretty serious situation, with no easy answers. I honestly have no idea how we are going to navigate this, and that worries me. A lot. Been here almost 16 years, and have never felt so concerned about the future of our little city.
I need a drink.
(And yes, I may be overdoing the worry part, but that’s my nature).
“For a $300,000 home, that’s $726.51 in additional taxes per year, starting in 2017. For a $700,000 home, that’s an additional $1,695 in taxes.”
A data point for us when consider how upset to be about a proposed property tax increase: Sell a $300,000/$700,000 home and you’re paying an $18,000/$42,000 (6%) commission to the real estate agents. That’s the equivalent of 24.7 years of the tax increase.
Decatur real estate is hot enough that it should be easy to sell by owner.
Easy said, but in practice, not so much. We made that mistake before the crash in 2007. We could not find a realtor on the buyer’s side that would show our house, much less work with us.
I know this has been mentioned in other posts, but what about actually updating the tax digest so that it reflects the actual value of all of the homes in Decatur. This may require county involvement, but as many have pointed out in other posts, many properties — especially those recently renovated — are drastically undervalued. Wouldn’t updating the tax digest not only improve revenue flow but also increase the debt limit because the “assessed value” of the tax digest would also increase (thus increasing the 10% figure). Am I missing something?
You are spot on. Easy to follow the sale, tear down, rebuild or the permitted expansion alongside the appraised value used for taxes. Several years apart in dlmost every case. When $300,000 goes to $1.1 million that a lot of tax money not being collected.
Exactly. Why not work to collect the “free money” that is already there in the form of under appraised properties. It may be a drop in the bucket, but why not start there before declaring we are “near the debt limit” or declaring we need to raise taxes, when the city is not collecting the taxes to which it is already entitled.
I don’t think this is just “a drop in the bucket.” This is a lot of real money. The majority of decatur homes are under-assessed by $100-200K. Some, like my next door neighbor, are off by $500k or more. A $100K assessment adjustment is equal to about $1700 in taxes per year to the city. Multiply that by say 80 percent of the parcels in the city….that’s a bunch of buckets.
(this calculator is not perfect, but pretty close: go to “decaturtax.blogspotdotcom”)
If this were fixed across the city, this would be additional millions of dollars per year unless the millage rate was decreased. And this doesn’t even take into account the undervalued commercial properties. But can you imagine the whining on decatur metro when everyone opened their new tax assessment…..
DeKalb County has done such a bang-up job with assessments in the past….
This is the best idea of the bunch here. If the city would take over the assessments and apply them from scratch fairly and accurately, there would be plenty of money, and I would bet the millage rate would even be reduced. No annexations would be needed. As it is now, the property tax situation is horribly unfair and inaccurate.
The dekalb assessors have made a sad attempt to randomly raise a few folks to “market value” and also hit some of the new sales, but it is so messed up. I would venture to bet that if you went down your street/block and looked at the values your neighbors are assessed, you would be amazed at the inequity. We were one of the ones that got hit with a big increase last year and tried to appeal, arguing that our value was out of whack with our street. No luck for us. Our “improved house” (50’s ranch with a new paint job) is valued as much as the new luxurious much larger home next door which could sell for over twice our home’s value. I really don’t have a problem with our value, but it should be fair for all. Our increase amounted to almost $3000 more per year, which for our family (we drive old cars and have kids hitting college now) really stung. If you are going to hit us, hit everyone fairly please, starting with the one next door to us!
I don’t know enough about the staffing and cost of running a tax assessment office. But if DeKalb County can’t get it right or fair, and fair, consistent assessments would make a substantial contribution towards solving COD’s fiscal and debt dilemma, then maybe it would be worth it for the City to take on that tax instead of relying on the County, no?
Yiiiiikes. Sorry to hear that you got clobbered like that. To your point, I’m still not sure why they don’t bring the job of assessments in-house, though it’s been discussed here several times. I’m not sure how much an assessor or department would add to the city’s finances, but it’s an idea worth looking into.
Here is a real example from city of decatur property tax website. Both properties were purchased in 2014. One was brand new, the other extensively renovated (basically a brand new house). Homes purchased within months of each other for prices within $15k. The “renovated” property paid $4,168 in city taxes. The new property paid $9,073. Basically, in one property, the city is leaving more than $4k on the table (not to mention what the county is leaving). So I don’t want to hear that the city is short of money until this problem is resolved. It’s not short of money, it’s just not collecting what it is entitled to.
True, people will complain, but they will only be paying what they are supposed to be paying. Nothing unfair about it.
Now I am really curious. House across from both of those described above, also new construction and purchased for more than both previously described houses (700k +) = $725 in property taxes. That’s not a typo.
You can hire me if you want, but I just found $15,000 for the city by looking at 2 houses. And people wonder why we are in dire financial straights.
BDT, I am no expert, but I do know there are some confusing rules about when things get assessed. For 2014 tax year, the property is assessed in its condition/value on January 1st of 2014. If it was renovated or sold sometime during the 2014 year, it should be reflected in the 2015 assessment which will come out sometime later this year and not on the books yet. “Should” and “what really happens” are not necessarily the same….
WP – You are right, it is assessed at the value as of January 1 of each year. However, all 3 homes identified above were at the same stage of completion (or completed) as of January 1 2014.
OK, you’re hired!
Seems like there would be firms that handle assessments for smaller cities like Decatur on an out-sourced basis. Then again, hiring an individual to do it would likely pay for itself pretty quickly if there are numerous cases like the ones BDT cites.
I’m sure if BDT’s numbers are correct an outside firm could be hired on a contingency basis for a percentage. It could be a windfall for CoD and the outside firm.
+1 million
A lot of people are talking about decreasing the attractiveness of the school system by incorporating things like split shifts, cottages, etc.- so that demand (and therefore enrollment) drops.
Others are talking about annexing large swaths of commercial to pay for the schools (but this brings more enrollment!).
Why are we not talking about raising taxes higher? This would achieve both goals: reduce demand for Decatur, while also supporting our school system.
You’ve got the right spirit, but unfortunately raising taxes will not be the answer – if anything that will just encourage more empty nest/child-free residents to leave, and accelerate the turnover to affluent families seeking refuge from the surrounding dumpster fire school systems.
And those school systems are so bad that we would have to absolutely destroy ours in order to keep people from moving here.
No, what we need to do is make this an awful place to live via other means. Like set the city speed limit to 4 MPH. Or make it illegal to harm vegetation of any kind, including grass. Forbid our police from apprehending criminals of certain races or genders. You know, do the things our commissioners are already trying to do, full bore. That’d solve the school capacity problems.
I wish you wouldn’t characterize surrounding school systems as “a dumpster fire.” That’s simply not the case. It’s true that neither DeKalb nor APS has the benefit of being a 4,300-student, majority white, system with only 17.5% of their students qualifying for free or reduced lunch, but they aren’t dumpster fires. What do you think someone whose kids go to McNair, Avondale, or Toomer think when they read that?
+10
There are good schools within those systems, but I agree with the characterization of the systems. How bad do you have to run a school system to be threatened with losing accreditation? If you achieve the remarkably low level of “competent”, your system will be fine. Neither APS nor DeKalb were able to meet that incredibly low bar.
Make it a progressive tax based on property value so that the higher valued properties have a higher increase than lower valued ones.
This would also keep top end values in check and would (theoretically) shift most of the cost burden to the new school-age families.
Yes, yes, yes. My husband and I have been saying this for a long time. We are a “progressive” city – let’s have a “progressive” tax plan!
But how would this idea keep my childless family in a higher valued house from selling or renting my home?
I agree that a tax increase will worsen the problem quickly.
the homestead exemption makes the taxes “sort of” progressive, but this exemption has been the same amount for a long time that it doesn’t make that much difference, what is it in decatur? 40K, seriously? what house in decatur is worth that? If the city were to take over the assessment process and do a drastic reassessment city wide, maybe raising this exemption to a more reasonable level should be considered. But, I don’t believe the homestead exemption is taken into account for the schools portion of the tax bill.
We pay enough in property taxes. We are already on a 50% assessment whereas most of the othe municipalities and countys are on a 40% assessment. Also residential tax payers pay the brunt of the taxes the city collects. We need more commercial real estate on the digest to help us out. I’m not voting for any tax increase period. They need to figure something else out.
Way to be openminded. I hope you are in the minority.
I feel like I pay enough in property taxes. I’ve been a resident of the C.O.D. since the mid 90’s. I imagine that the bond referendum would potentially pass, so you shouldn’t have anything to worry about. I don’t have any kids, so I don’t really have a “dawg” in this fight…thus the “no” vote on the referendum.
I don’t have kids, either–but the dog both of us have in this hunt is our taxes that we pay. I’ve said plenty of times that I don’t mind paying high taxes for schools (because I don’t want to live in an ignorant society), but there comes a point where the squeeze for funding schools has to stop. I’m pretty sure lots of other people feel the same way we do, and it doesn’t make us “closed-minded”. It’s definitely high time COD/CSD started thinking out of the tax-hike box.
I don’t pay CSD taxes but I do pay sales taxes, which have been a primary source of CSD capital funding, and I do pay state taxes, which supply a sizeable portion of the CSD budget. And it’s entirely appropriate at this point to say enough is enough to CSD and its insatiable appetite for cash, at least as to us non-CSD residents and our money.
This is a school system that has spent $110 million on capital projects in the last 13 years. $110 million, and the system now says that was not nearly enough! Mind you, about 25% of that $110 million was spent not on classrooms, but an auditorium, football stadium, and gym. I’m sure they are all very nice, but it’s now clear that they reflected shortsighted planning and misplaced priorities. You Decaturites want to give the system a pass on all that and fork over even more of your money, well, good luck and god bless. But here’s hoping that the ESPLOST spigot and its incentive to SPEND CASH NOW! is at least finally closed. We should all pay for our own extravagances.
Let’s not forget that during the period from 1960 to 1990 or so – the era of white flight – that there were essentially no public building projects in Decatur. The municipal building boom of the last 20 years has been needed to make up for lost time.
I’m not saying that that I agree with every decision made related to the schedule or scope (did we really need to rehab the Rec Center?), but let’s keep things in perspective.
First of all- Decatur is not the only system spending like crazy on facilities. DeKalb did it too – just look around the county. Second – none of what you describe was extravagant spending – every HS I have ever been to in GA had a gym and auditorium. Prior to 2009, DHS had neither (and don’t try to tell me Central Gym was a gym – it was not). Every school system has stadiums for the athletic programs. Decatur’s was way past due for replacement.
Yes, we are in a pickle, but we will find a way to deal with it.
I couldn’t disagree with you more. CSD doesn’t have an insatiable appetite for cash – it isn’t like they are installing gold-plated toilets in these schools or building extravagant facilities. They are simply trying to provide enough classrooms for all of the students (or 90% of them). And although they would be prohibited from saying so, I believe that Dr. Edwards and/or several members of the school board would love to hang a “No Vacancy” sign at the city limits. Instead, CSD must respond to the demands posed by an unprecedented and largely unforeseeable influx of new students. Yes, a large part of the demand is the result of the efforts of CSD, but the majority of this flight into the city is the result of simultaneous failures of two adjoining school systems. Sorry, but no one could see that coming.
But, if I can borrow your Delorean and flux capacitor, I will go back and tell them to save some of that cash b/c the schools will be overcrowded in a decade. Of course no one will believe me, but that is another problem.
I completely agree with you. There’s more to this city than the schools!!!
Here’s the thing. Annexing commercial that kind of does “belong” to other neighborhoods, just so city residents don’t need have to pay more for the schools we (mostly) want, is bunk. If we want good schools, WE need to be willing to pay for them. If we want more commercial on the tax digest, then let’s work to lure commercial here.
So, this doesn’t mean I’m for this option at all, but it hasn’t been discussed, and I think it at least needs a peek. Please don’t burn me at the stake for heresy. Let’s just say we decide to dissolve City Schools of Decatur and become part of DeKalb County. What would that look like as far as the everyday experience out kids have? Please think with an open mind before responding .
My elderly neighbor told me this almost happened in the 1960’s. I’d like to think there is a way to stay independent, but we need to get rid of all the sacred cows to get through this crunch. And I believe it is temporary. I don’t believe all these young families are going to sell out and move away the day their youngest graduates from DHS.
If nothing else, they’d stop being pissed about the Suburban Plaza annexation.
*HOLLAAAA*
This actually came up during a city commission campaign many years ago. Before thinking about the everyday experience, I’d like to better understand at what point would this have to be considered.
My trust levels for DeKalb County School System and DeKalb County government are so low that I would need some strong, strong arguments to go for this. The only pluses that I can see are that Decatur students would be eligible for the DeKalb magnet and gifted programs and for Coralwood Elementary (special needs and typical students). Once CSD was absorbed into DCSS, I doubt it could ever exit and become its own system again. It would be an irreversible change. So I rank it last of just about all the feasible options.
I’ll second what someone else said about the trust level of county government and the county school board. One of the reasons that we wanted CSD schools was the smaller size and necessary responsiveness to its constituents. I’ve watched DCSS give the middle finger to concerned parents with little consequence long enough to want to avoid that at all costs.
Large systems, at least in local experience, tend to mean top-heavy, bloated bureaucracies with little accountability and oversight, leading to corruption.
However, there are many who say small systems like ours are inherently inefficient and unsustainable. This is maybe an interesting example of why.
To answer your explicit question: If we dissolved and became a part of the county, our children should expect to go to much larger schools – think elementaries with an average 600-800 students K(or PreK)-5, instead of roughly 300(ish)-400-student K-3s. Fernbank, for example, has 705 enrolled students and, when its new building is complete, will have seats for 800. I think I remember reading in articles about both DCSS and APS that they have a goal of moving toward larger schools to better maximize efficiencies of scale and qualify for more funding from the state.
I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction against such larger schools, but it may be better – overall – for kids to get used to interacting with peers from a wider area than just their immediate neighborhood and functioning in a less insular environment.
I do think, as a society, we need to look at a better way of funding public education than our current one that encourages development of small, wealthy enclaves that have good schools surrounded by areas that struggle. I don’t know what that would be. Sorry for the ramble…
TL/DR = I think the immediate impact would be going to larger, more impersonal schools and having little to no input into educational, personnel and administrative decisions.
Decatur (The City of), has been living champagne dreams on a beer budget.
Residents and City Leadership need to be honest with themselves.
The City reminds me of that neighbor, you know the one, the Joneses.
They live in a big McMansion, drive the latest model import car, and vacation at all the hot spots.
Everything appears perfect.
The reality is, they are mortgaged to the hilt.
They spend more than their income and they live paycheck to paycheck, mired in debt.
The mere suggestion that annexation of neighboring commercial property will smooth out your finances is shameless and a farce. It is akin to the Joneses reaching into their neighbors mailbox and pilfering that pre approved credit card offer for their own use.
Now if it is truly “all for the kids”, don’t you think that owning up to your own mistakes is one of those teachable moments?
Come on City of Decatur, the first step is to admit you have a problem.
Right on!
That is spot on, CMR. Why would people want to be annexed into the City of Decatur? Their plan is to annex, raise the taxes, exclude children from City of Decatur schools for at least three years, and take many newly annexed homes by imminent domain to build more schools. The City of Decatur has not said it will hire more police, buy more patrol cars, and build the needed new fire station, if annexation takes place. How can the City of Decatur afford to take care of the newly annexed properties? They can’t!
But we do know that it is eminent domain, not imminent.
I said this yesterday(I think it was yesterday), but tiered property taxes. Any new residents with school aged children pay more in property taxes than established residents – i.e. anyone that’s been here 3 or 4 or however many years. That would obviously be up for debate, but I think that would raise the tax base as well as deter some from moving in. And when I say pay more, I mean significantly more. I’m sure it wouldn’t be the most popular answer, but if you’ve got people paying as much or more in property taxes as they would if they were sending their kid to private school, I think it would slow down the influx.
Speaking of ridiculous ideas I’ll throw in one. Maybe it could just be on the honors system, where everyone contributes extra each year, in what services they actually owe for, if they want to. If you have 4 kids you kick in an extra amount, only 2, you pay less, if you have no kids but want to contribute extra $ beyond taxes you can, but it’s not mandatory. Annexation is iffy at best, so thinking beyond that is probably a good idea, hence the referendum (which probably would have been necessary either way.)
I don’t see it as that ridiculous of an idea. No more ridiculous than split shifts. That would be horrible.
Is this legal?
Um….no.
I think this is not legal, but why not a progressive tax on property value? This would have the same effect. It would also keep the top end on home values in check.
My concern with raising taxes is that it will not deter families with school age kids from living in Decatur but it will discourage single people, childless couples, and empty nesters from remaining or moving in.
See my suggestion above. Raise taxes significantly for only new families moving in with school aged children. Or if anyone moves in after a certain date and has children that will eventually enter the school system, they’re taxes go up at that time. Maybe they pay that higher rate the first 5 years or something along those lines, then it goes down after that.
Yeah, it’s not a great solution, but none of the other options are all that great either. I personally think it makes the most sense if we’re trying to curb the influx for the sake of schools. It raises the tax base, deters the rise in school population, and allows those without school age children to move to Decatur like normal.
Not allowed by law.
Retread from a previous post. Still like the idea, though told I must be living on another planet.
Simple solution: Turn CSD into private schools. $15K per year per kid should reduce the demand pretty quickly. Problem immediately solved. Not kidding. For most, still beats Dekalb Co or shipping to Paideia/Pius. Democrat wailing and gnashing of teeth can begin now……(again).
That would be a fantastic deal, actually. What happens to taxes in this scenario?
Actually the market is primed for more reasonably priced private school options. There are a lot of parents out there who would pay that much for a school experience without all the current Decatur/DeKalb/Druid Hills uncertainty. Making our public school private isn’t realistic but building more politics-proof schools may be.
but that would totes ruin my plan to have everybody else pay for my kids’ schooling
If we can crowdsource a list of all the actual, feasible options, we can do a poll tomorrow.
I’d do it as a Condorcet poll for this sort of issue. (Rank options from top to bottom in terms of preferences.) http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/civs_create.html lets you easily create such polls.
Here are a few options floating around:
–Lease space from outside city (e.g., East Lake Elementary)
–split shifts
–round year schools
–raise tax rates
–trailers
–increase class size
–more?
More: take over property assessment from Dekalb County and have COD systematically reappraise properties where a construction permit was issued for the lot.
Please!!
Seems like the only feasible short-term option is trailers, trailers, and more trailers. And there may be something to the Potemkin-village-in-reverse effect that others have talked about here. Changing the motto to a City of Double-wides would have to reduce demand somewhat, right?
May just be me being uninformed, but what’s the average class size? Growing up, the answer to enrollment spikes, to some extent, is just to increase class size. Without getting too much into education theory, most of the recent research shows that having a small class size isn’t nearly as important as a quality teacher (a good teacher can do a better job with 30, compared to a bad teacher with 20). If there aren’t any sacred cows here, then you have to look at see if you can put 4-5 more kids in every classroom – which is just like adding another classroom itself.
As a huge fan of smaller class sizes, I’m not in favor of this. The kids who rise to the top in any situation will be fine. The kids who get special assistance because of legal mandates may be ok. But the kids who could use dedicated attention but aren’t going to screw up the standardized testing too badly will get a lot less than they get now. Plus, even in our superdeluxe, extra-special, crème-de-la-crème school system, it’s unrealistic to think that we’ll have 100% great, super-performing teachers all the time. It takes an awfully special teacher to not have their game affected by large class sizes.
I would definitely consult with our wonderful teachers on this one. Even if research were to prove that large class sizes have no effect on the instruction children receive, teachers might not be willing to put up with it. If we lose our wonderful teachers, we are doomed, no matter what options we choose!
Here’s an example of the research:
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/11/is-it-better-to-have-a-great-teacher-or-a-small-class/281628/
Even if we go from, say, 22 to 26, that would absorb some of the additional students without requiring physical plant improvements.
For the record, my average class size growing up, in northern Maryland, was 30-32, with a high of 39 (yes, it really happened). Don’t think we need that many bodies per class, but, as far as I can tell, adding incremental students to each class doesn’t impact the class noticeably, other than people being worried about the ratio itself.
Are class sizes in CSD really as low as 22? Only in preK and kindergarten (mandated by law) and in the newly opened Westchester, right? I have no objection to class sizes going from 22 to 26 kids, mostly because my kids rarely had a class smaller than 26 kids after Westchester closed. (There was that one heavenly transition year when there was a class of only 17 kids….) But if elementary school class sizes get routinely above 30 kids, I believe it will change the quality of our schools. That could be mitigated a bit if larger classrooms also had a full-time paraprofessionals, a very cost-effective way to boost instructional support. Over the years, we’ve had some paraprofessionals that rival Ghandi in their wisdom, patience, and skill. However, many left for various reasons. And I do worry that it’s a slippery slope–paraprofessionals would then get cut and you’d soon have larger classrooms without adequate instructional support.
I think you might be the first person who has mentioned increased class sizes in conjunction with hiring more teaching staff. Seems this would be something that could be done relatively quickly compared to the other options. Even trailers take a fair amount of time to install and implement. Is CSD actively hiring? They’d better be.
We need teachers to weigh in on this too. Do they think that having full-time parapro is an adequate compensation for increasing the class size from say 26 students to 32? There’s also probably physical limitations to some of our classrooms in terms of how many students can fit in them.
Certainly, if classroom sizes DO rise because of the population crunch, paraprofessionals are one relatively cost-effective way to mitigate the damage IF there are adequate numbers of them. When a classroom has only 1/4 or 1/3 of a parapro, I’m not sure that instruction has been substantially improved.
The class size at Westchester is 24-25 for nearly every K, 1st, and 2nd grade class. Westchester was only supposed to have two Kg classes but ended up adding s third bc so many kids registered inJune and July. And each of those three classes is *full*.
There are only two 3rd grade classes, and each has 17-18 students. Third graders were allowed to stay at their former schools, and clearly many took that option.
Next year, however, there will be three classrooms for each grade, and I’ll bet they will all have 24-25 kids.
It kills me when I see friends/acquaintances complaining on social media about how the APS or DCSS classes are too large (22 in one case) and saying they’ll just move to Decatur instead. I laugh bc our class sizes are NOT small anymore!
Have we talked about a building moratorium this go ’round? Stop the teardowns and the influx of newcomers would shrink.
I thought that radical tree ordinance was supposed to slow down tear downs. Maybe it should have been a full ban on tree cutting.
The lack of correlation between the exploding school population and the barely discernable increase in the tax digest is a red flag to me that funny business is afoot in Decatur. I’ve been following the Renfroe School expansion since the beginning. Being a Rolling Stone reader, and more than half-way through Naomi Klein’ Shock Doctrine, I smell predatory lenders and developers pumping the city full of smoke and mirrors with the population growth projections, megaschool visions and “hurry up borrow NOW while the debt is cheap.” Local governments are a hot debt market. I’ll be voting NO on the referendum, down at City Hall, and at the ballot box if it gets that far.
The digest actually went up pretty significantly last year (can’t remember the exact number), but I think the main issue with a tax digest that doesn’t seem to match with real property valuation has more to do with Dekalb County’s internal issues than a true conspiracy. Plus they are probably somewhat hesitant to boost people’s valuations significantly year over year. Lots of phone calls and appeals which they might not have the personnel available for.
The problem with voting ‘no’ as a matter of principle is that we have more kids year over year. You have to put them somewhere. Under any scenario you will pay more in taxes. Whether it is for a GO bond to build, operations millage to pay for the trailers, increased taxes to pay for rental schools, whatever. There is no scenario to pay the same amount of tax five years from now that you pay now.
I’m not buying the hype that the school population will increase to projected levels. It defies reason that all these people are flocking to Decatur for whatever reason, and the high taxes we all pay to live in Decatur are not enough to support our collective needs. There’s supposed to be a connection. We need a sustainable budget!
I lost my innocence at the Public Service Commission where Georgia Power receives permission to fleece its customers for a 10% nuclear tax (Nuclear Construction Cost Recovery AKA Construction Work In Progress (CWIP) on our electric bills. The two reactors were OK’d based on Georgia Power’s forecast of a 4.1% annual increase. Georgia Power’s own SEC-filed figures show that its electricity market has been flat for the last 10 years (reflecting a national trend), and further, that Georgia Power is not using almost half of its existing power portfolio. Georgia Power is highly motivated by its guaranteed 11% profit to make its revenue stream as large as possible. The CWIP tax qualified it for $6 billion in 0% interest loans from the U.S. treasury. Oh, yeah, and if you saw the news last week, the nuclear project is three years behind schedule and $4 billion over budget.
Gets me thinking about who benefits from these (unnecessary) public projects. Certainly the banks and developers are having a hey day in Decatur. But we should not have to pay taxes for their speculation.
I’m not sure how people won’t/don’t see the correlation of a quality school system and rising property values/insulation from declining property values. I believe what we have here in Decatur is pretty special and I don’t mind paying for it (i would love the tax increase to be tied to no residential annexation, though)….as a “Libertarian leaner”, I can’t believe I just typed that; but would much rather be taxed local.
Also, if we are going to lease a school outside of Decatur make it appealing to a special population. Arts -based K-5, STEM, highly gifted center, etc. I I don’t know what highly gifted means, but whatever. Make it fancy to someone.
We live in a small city that is very dense by Geogia standards with plenty of commercial that bring in millions of dollars from outside the City. We also pay the highest taxes. This should be one of the more efficient models. The solution has to be on the cost side of the ledger, not the revenue.
“We live in a small city that is very dense by Geogia standards with plenty of commercial that bring in millions of dollars from outside the City.”
Actually, there is not enough commercial. The tax digest is tilted heavily toward single-family residential. Popular restaurants do not necessarily equate to big property tax revenue streams.
And here’s another idea…people can move to Decatur, but when the schools are full, the schools are full. CSD can pay tuition to send them to Dekalb.
Most of what’s being kicked around has little to no chance of happening. Here’s what will almost certainly happen:
Immediately: trailers everywhere (and they’ll be around for a long time, so might as well embrace them)
As soon as possible: tax increases (will pass easily– people, by and large, moved here for the schools, not for low taxes)
Medium term: new schools ( if annexation happens)
Long term: Improved schools in nearby DeKalb and Atlanta that diminish demand in overcrowded Decatur (OK, this last ones iffy).
I can live with this, if it comes to pass.
“Improved schools in nearby DeKalb and Atlanta that diminish demand in overcrowded Decatur” – Likely over the 20-30 year term of new bonds. Then Decatur can lease schools to DeKalb and Atlanta…
Sacred cows that need to be eliminated ASAP:
Paying tuition students – this was a great revenue source when we had the room, but we’re past that stage now. If you want your child in CSD schools, you need to live in the school district. They have stopped accepting new tuition applications (technically, but in some cases have accepted siblings) but there are many grandfathered students still on the rolls.
CSD employee tuition students – once again, back in the day, this was a great way to recruit great teachers to the district, but there’s no more room. A lot of teachers that used to live in Decatur have moved to the Midway neighborhood, where both the mortgage payment and tax bill are a lot cheaper, but their kids still attend CSD schools (for free).
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Allowing students of faculty and staff to attend school is precisely how we are able to recruit excellent folks for our schools. I would not want to give that up. Having good teachers is more important than anything else. Good teachers can teach in crummy buildings without iPads and ACTIVboards.
Agree with 4/5. Also, once people already have some sort of benefit, taking it away hurts more than never having it. CSD teachers who have their kids in our schools currently are going to feel like they’re being kicked in the teeth if that benefit is withdrawn, and having to switch school districts for kids who have been here for years (sometimes doing things like the IB program) would be quite disruptive. Doing this would really torpedo teacher and staff morale, and not just for the people directly effected.
Regarding iPads, guitars at FAVE, etc.–keep in mind that a lot of these extra goodies that are nice but non-essential are funded by DEF rather than the CSD budget. I’m glad that DEF does these things, but DEF shouldn’t be expected, and they don’t have the money, to contribute to core expenses like system seating capacity, salaries, etc.
So now we are supposed to subsidize teacher’s greed? I know a teacher who had lived in Decatur for 15+ years, but recently moved to just outside the city limits. Besides pocketing $100k (for a larger house), their taxes decreased from $8,000 to $1,500 per year. They did this knowing that their kids would get a free ride in Decatur schools (and take up 3 seats). We need to close this loophole now.
Maybe there is some middle ground here – what if the only tuition kids we accept are teachers kids? Or have teachers pay full tuition for a limited time (3-5 years), followed by a reduced rate.
“…teacher who had lived in Decatur for 15+ years, but recently moved to just outside the city limits. Besides pocketing $100k (for a larger house), their taxes decreased from $8,000 to $1,500 per year”
Not sure why you would have such a problem with this?
“So now we are supposed to subsidize teachers’ greed”
TEACHERS…
GREED?
Do you have any idea what a teacher makes relative to the amount of utter bullshit they have to put up with on the job?
Literally nobody teaches for the money, I can tell you that.
TinMan, your comment is petty and small. Unbelievable.
I agree and hope that any of our teachers reading this realize that this opinion is definitely not shared by most people in Decatur. Revoking courtesy tuition for teachers’ children would not come close to addressing the additional space needed and would be pointlessly spiteful and counterproductive. Some of the comments on this thread are just shameful.
I agree with TopHat. I appreciate our great teachers and think they are far from greedy. Their kids should be able to attend the school system in which they teach.
I said this higher up, but why not a progressive tax on property value? This is one where the tax rate increases based on the valuation of the property.
This would raise additional revenue for schools, keep top end property value down, and keep legacy homeowners able to pay tax (and not need to move).
I don’t think that is legal, at least not without a change to the GA Constitution. The counties and cities are allowed to assess only an ad valorem tax, which means the tax is due on the value of the property. Any muni law lawyers out there to confirm?
Further, one could argue that an ad valorem tax is already progressive – the higher the value, the higher the tax.
Well, most taxes are a %, but these are not progressive. Example is federal income taxes, in which higher incomes pay a higher %.
Start charging admission for the book festival and give the money to the schools.
So why is this all coming out now? If we are so close to the debt ceiling, why weren’t discussions of the impending limit occurring over the last few years as the debt slowly grew? I heard a little discussion of this late last fall but it was low-key and I had no idea it was this serious.
Is this a tempest in a teapot? Something that was covered up? A grave situation that foolishly ignored? Something that is under control if only we all understood it better?
The City Manager is proud that every City facility has been renovated or replaced in the last ten years, but much of the funding for those projects was NOT from public bond referendums, so no one paid much attention to the cost of all the new/updated facilities. Now the schools are under pressure, and the opportunity costs of previous projects have narrowed options. And the City’s refusal to do a school bond in 2013 kicked the problem down the road so we’re where we are now. DeVry is a huge missed opportunity for the schools IMHO but the City wanted mixed development which is not what is going in. FWIW it has never seemed to me that the City and the City Schools communicate or get along that well, despite how important the health of CSD is to the City.
+1, especially re: the DeVry property. The City totally screwed the pooch on that one.
Teachers having their children in the system is a wonderful thing beyond just a “free ride” benefit for the teacher. Working and having your children in the same system helps with complexities around the calendar, eases commutes and childcare and most importantly creates a shared ownership, perspective that I am sure is invaluable to teachers in their classrooms. This benefit will be even more important as our property values and taxes rise and teachers can’t afford to live in Decatur. I hate that. I used to tell friends in Marin county that I loved that I lived in a place where your teacher’s also lived. Where my friend lived in Marin, no teacher could live, they all drove from an hour away to service the children of the uber wealthy, or just those working like dogs in high paying careers to buy into the high priced dream of a home there. Be careful what you wish for…….
+1
And teacher loyalty is critical to good instruction. You need high quality teachers to stay long term, not turn over as soon as they find an administrative promotion or a nearby school system that pays slightly better. Two of the key factors in teacher retention in CSD are our smaller schools and the ability to send their own children to CSD. If our schools are growing and the small school atmosphere is changing, we better keep the other benefits.
Taxes suck! Nobody disagrees with that. We have remember what writing that check each year is actually buying: investment in a high quality education for our youngest residents. Don’t we owe it to them to reasonably do whatever it takes to provide for all our students because WE KNOW the value of a good education. Don’t we want to set an example for our kids or our neighbors kids by doing what is right without all the nit picking about how much somebody’s house costs and whether teachers are out to rook the City Schools of Decatur of their resources? The fact of it is we all benefit from providing for our schools in the long run whether we have kids or not. People moving in to Decatur know this – it’s why they’re here. People who have lived here know if the evolution if our system to where it is now. It’s not cheap and that’s the point. Public education dies not mean free. All the stakeholders have to give up something.
That being said – that does not mean taxpayers should just buck up and accept the tax hike! Join in! Give input! It’s your community!
As a teacher for CSD (one of those outsiders) I am grateful EVERY day to be a part of this incredible community and honored to teach such amazing kids – but it’s knowing there is a strong city-community behind all of us that makes it even more possible.
Thank you for what you do for out community!