Decatur School Board Elects for Later Start Times for DHS
Decatur Metro | | 10:03 amFrom CSD’s website…
At the April Board meeting, the Board of Education voted for “Option Two” where Renfroe Middle School and Decatur High School will have later start and end times.
Option one (keep current)
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Option Two
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Pre-K
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8:00-2:30
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8:00-2:30
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K-3
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8:00-2:30
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OA and WP: 8:00-2:30; CL and GL 8:10-2:40
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4/5
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8:45-3:45
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7:45-2:30
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6-8
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8:45-3:45
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8:40-3:40
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9-12
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8:00-3:00
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8:30-3:30
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Unless I’m reading this chart wrong, only DHS (plus CL and GL) has a later start time. RMS is actually five minutes earlier.
Re “later” start times: I think the terminology has gotten confused as we go from year to year, Option to Option, discussion to discussion. My sense is that “later” in this case means “later in the morning” vs. “later than last year”.
yes…rms start time appears earlier by a few minutes. also 4/5 day is cut 15 minutes short. if they have 7 hour days this year, how can 15 minutes be just shaved off? please don’t tell me recess will be eliminated. although if my kids are out at 2:30 there will be plenty of opportunity for outside play.
Probably the explorations will be cut at FAVE with a shorter day.
but explorations are only on friday afternoons…
Hmm…that is a valid point. I’ll change my title!
I hadn’t noted the shorter day. That is interesting and I wonder if it was discussed at all. I certainly remember last year when all the time shifting was put under the umbrella of “we need more time” vs. anything to do with bussing. Both might be valid reasons to make changes if it’s clear.
Currently students get about 15 mins 3x per week on the days they don’t have PE. I think this is inadequate and below a reasonable standard. I hope that a shorter day doesn’t make it harder to move in the right direction.
I realize that people who have K-3 and 4/5 students might only be about 300 families (guestimate) but wondering what folks think about fact that the K-3 and 4/5 end at the same time??? I wonder why they shaved the 15 and then also had so many schools ending at same time or within 10 min of each other. I guess I don’t quite understand how buses drive such a spread in the morning but it’s less relevant in the afternoon? Perhaps fewer riders as some stay at school.
I predict that we’ll have another change for the 2013 year….
It’s an excellent point that the afternoon end times aren’t as staggered as the morning start times and yet somehow the bus routes are scheduled to handle the tight spread. And a shorter day does not seem right, especially after the argument last year that a longer day was needed. I don’t think that the School Board or the community should accept the 7:45 start time for the 4/5 without a more transparent and convincing explanation. I’ll bet smart people could come up with a morning schedule that worked in terms of logistics, timing, number of buses, and cost. If not, CSD has a flaw in their configuration of schools that must be fixed.
Next year I’ll have kids at both College Heights and Oakhurst. I realize that this isn’t a change from this year, but still: even though the schools are close together, it’s going to be a little annoying if you plan on picking up your kids right at the end of the school day, since the teachers generally would like you to be there right at dismissal time, and I prefer not to drive for such a short distance. Moving Oakhurst and Winona each 10 minutes later too would have been nice. I think there are probably a non-trivial numbers of parents in this situation.
Depending on where their kids are next year, everyone has a different issue and preference but I’ll bet one could come up with a group of principles that most parents, teachers, and administrators would agree should guide start/end times, e.g. no school starts before 8 AM, schools contiguous by level ( e.g. PreK and K-3 or K-3 and 4/5) should start staggered by at least 10 minutes, RMS and DHS start the latest, the school day must last Xhours, etc. In fact, the Bell Schedule Committee did that, I believe. So the only Options that ought to be out there are ones that adhere to the guiding principles. If there’s no practical way to devise bell schedules to fit the guiding principles (and I keep thinking there is), then the Bell Schedule Committee, Central Office, and School Board prioritize the principles and re-work the Options.
I agree that end-times somehow got lost in the discussion.
Next year, we’ll have kids released from Clairemont and Fifth Ave (at opposite ends of our “small” city) within 10 minutes of each other, during which we’ll face inevitable lags in car-pool lines. Notwithstanding my frustration that CSD flushes too much money on buses: big yellow bus, here we come.
Where’s warp-drive technology when you need it?
Given that we’re only 4 square miles, why can’t we use pneumatic tubes to send the lighter weight students, e.g. preK-3, to where they need to go? The 4/5 students might need a bit of a hydraulic shove.
Would need to be some sort of a habitrail using recycled materials, natch. And could we link this up to the new clifton transit corridor? Or the BeltLine?? Oh the possibilities …
From what I can tell, the main reason for moving the FAVE start time a whole hour earlier is because about 100 kids a day are being dropped off at FAVE before school starts and before there is adequate supervision on the campus. So those people who are choosing to do that instead of putting their FAVE kids on a bus are wrecking it for the rest of us. Now my FAVE bus rider will be getting on the bus at 7 a.m. instead of 8 a.m. I can’t really put her to bed much earlier than I do now, so she will now be losing 5 hours of sleep per week. Yay.
Also, I’m not sure how a 7:45 start time for FAVE is congruent with their huge walk & roll push this year.
Also, expect a backlash from parents who did not sign their FAVE students up for the after-school program thinking they wouldn’t need it, who will now need it with a 2:30 end time.
I am glad, however, that RMS and DHS will have start/end times that are closer together. That part was important.
Since 7:00 am is dark for much, if not most, of the school year, my fifth ave. student will need an escort to the bus stop next year. Which means my husband will be escorting her with little brother in tow as he is the only parent home that time of day. Either that, or he’ll end up driving her every day . . .
There are actually only less than 10-20 students there before 8. Unless one of the buses get to school early which does happen. Never all year long have I seen 100 students waiting before 8.
This number may have been reported but it is not accurate.
On the mornings I’m passing the door, it’s more like 20+ than 10+. And 20 students aged 9-1 1years huddled at the door does not have an insignificant feel to it. And they rush right in during cold or rainy weather when the doors open at 8 AM. If it were just a few students, they would probably be allowed in to sit the lobby but there’s too many to monitor before supervision is available. At a younger age, it would be parental neglect to just leave them at the door. Students huddled outside the middle school or high school is not a big deal although I keep my fingers crossed that everything happening in those huddles is nonbullying, noncriminal conversation and behavior on school grounds. I’m not saying that children left early at FAVE because there’s no before care or other options for parents who are required to be at work early is sufficient reason in itself to pick an Option, but it is definitely an uncomfortable phenomenon. I don’t even love the sitting around the multipurpose room or gym or auditorium that happens in all elementary schools while some kids arrive early for breakfast and others arrive early only because the bus brought them early. Thanks goodness for the Study Buddy program at FAVE that gives kids another option starting at 8 AM. (Full disclaimer: My kids always love the sitting around the big room doing nothing before school starts part; but I don’t. Idle minds, idle hands…………)
From the point of view of a F.AVE teacher who also has children in CSD schools- I am THRILLED with this change. Teachers work long hours after children are dismissed, and it has been a true hardship this year for me– finishing my work tasks, picking up my children from after-school care, and also attempting to engage them in extra-curricular activities such as eating dinner and bathing before bedtime.
Let’s all give it a try and see how it works out.
I appreciate Garrett’s comments above. I am very happy if this suits teachers better.
I am pretty sure that the only people it is terrible for are those with 4/5 AND k-3 kids. In the end this is likely a pretty small group when compared to other contingencies.
520 kids at 4/5 maybe 60% also have kids at K-3? So 312. Of those 312 some % live in Oakhurst quite close to both schools so less of an issue. So let’s say that removes 1/3 of those folks who would have serious logistical constraints. That leaves 208 kids. Some % of those families might use the before care already for their k-3 kids given job needs/free breakfast etc so the earlier time isn’t a factor. Another subset also have 2 parents on duty in the morning and can split kid delivery chores. So in the end it might be a pretty small number when compared to the several hundred kids at the HS…. or the 1000 kids at the K-3 whose parents might really whine louder if school started too early.
So while I am personally in the category of kids split between 4/5 and k-3, living far enough away to create complexity, and also having no second parent support during mornings I get that for many this choice allowed some big wins for HS families and RMS DHS coordination which impacts more people.
I still don’t believe there isn’t a better choice that could be determined and I am worried that the shorter day at 4/5 will be used to explain too many things (less recess, explorations etc).
But you’re forgetting that the same set of K-3 and 4/5 siblings will later be 4/5 and RMS sets. Why do people keep forgetting that?
Maybe people didn’t forget but rather are aware that this is the 2nd start time change in two years and it’s likely that another K-3 school opening will necessitate revisiting start times, aka transportation plan.
I haven’t forgotten this. Yes of course they’ll be multiple schools for ever. And so of course those schools should be coordinated at some level.
However a few factors are different:
1- RMS and DHS are central
2- RMS and DHS kids don’t require the same level of supervision to get to school or at home. You can’t leave a first grader finishing their cereal to drive a 5th grader to school.
I think all the schools should have coordination that makes sense, promotes walking and minimizes driving.
I get that it made sense to trade off a more reasonable plan for HS/RMS at the cost of some difficulty for a much smaller set of families. I just don’t believe there weren’t some other ways to think about the transportation puzzle that could have made small adjustments to have your closer school and younger child go first.
I am glad the older kids are starting later and I hope that part holds through all the transitions that are inevitable for our growing system. Even though this decision is done, I still think CSD has an an opportunity to be clear on what factors drive the decisions that would make future changes easier.
Agreed on all points.
These posts are from last year, and say the schools are changing schedules to accommodate the need for more recess. I don’t think they could cut back on it, after trying to push how important it was. It was also listed as a reason for the need to change schedules in the first place. Hmmm…
http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/03/04/csd-provides-greater-detail-on-reasons-to-extend-the-school-day/#comments
http://www.decaturmetro.com/2011/03/03/csd-to-extend-the-school-days-for-elementary-and-high-schools/
Since you are a F.AVE teacher what do you think about losing 15 minutes to the school day? That seems strange given last year the board talked about extending the K-3 day to match the 4/5 day saying teachers needed more instruction time.
It’s always about buses and SPLOST funds, which are easier to get than operating funds. That’s what I’ve gotten out of XX number of years in the school system. The mantra is buses and SPLOST.
As a parent, I’m thrilled to see 15 minutes taken of the 4th and 5th grade day. 7 hours is just too long to be in a school building for that age group.
Fine with me too, I also think the day is too long for K-5 and like my kids to have more free time.
But I am worried that this will mean even less recess and make teachers even more overwhelmed. Teaching 28 kids (typical 5th grade class size this year!) all that must be covered is already such a challenge.
Many may not know that currently at F.AVE, the kids who are in band have to be at the school at 7:30 a.m., 3 days a week. Band is for 30 miinutes and then they have down time from 8 till school starts at 8:45. This makes their day run from 7:30-3:45!! That is an 8.25 hour school day!! In addtition, there are activity buses that run at 7 a.m. to pick these children up and take them to F.AVE so even more busing is taking place. The 7:45-2:30 school day, (with possible band afterschool) will make the day a lot shorter then what is happening now! Our child is exhausted after band days.
There was a good discussion of the factors influencing each of our votes at last night’s BoE meeting. Speaking only for myself, here are the pro’s and con’s which I shared last evening and which I was balancing when I voted on Start Times for Option 2:
[Pro’s]
Research on academic impacts
– Review of many studies, most notably: “A’s from Zzzz’s? The Causal Effect of School Start Time on the Academic Achievement of Adolescents.” By Scott E. Carrell, Teny Maghakian, and James E. West. American Economic Journal: Economic Policy
– My take away: later start times for late adolescence has significant impact on safety, health, and academics
Impact on Budget
– Aligning RMS and DHS start times will allow reduction of 2 drivers $80K estimated savings
Student Preferred Start Time Surveys
• RMS: 7:30a=29%, 8:30a=28%, 8:45a=28%
• DHS: 7:30a=27%, 8:00a=27%, 8:30a=43%
• most clear preference was 8:30a by 43%
• low participation rates call into question significance of results
Parent and teacher surveys across F.Ave, RMS, and DHS demonstrated no conclusive preference.
[Con’s]
Prior board guidance: stated preference that all schools start >= 8AM
4/5 Academy start time under Option 2 would shift 1 hour earlier affecting many families’ after school care plans. Decatur Rec after school care registration opened in January. Lottery is now. Mitigating factors, recommendations are based on start times and transportation committee recommendations which occurred in Fall and finished reporting to the board in March.
[Other factors]
Desire not to revisit start times frequently:
– Possibility of future Westchester decisions necessitating revisiting start times?
– Ongoing efforts to review and improve efficiency of transportation including: (1) explore future change to eligibility radius from 1m => 1.5m for grades 6-12, (2) Assumption of 45 minute minimum route time. All routes? (3) Give time to see and incorporate effects of efforts to improve efficiency
F.Ave & RMS start time after 8:30a as complicating factors
• Some parents going to work are dropping students off before supervision is provided
Thanks so much for communicating with us out here in blogland. Can you explain why FAVE can’t start just 15 minutes later, holding the rest of Option 2 the same or close to the same?
One of the constraints we currently face, is a “a turn around time of approximately 45 minutes” on bus routes. A 7:45a start time at F.Ave allows a 45 minute interval before the DHS 8:30a start time.
That said, the Transportation Committee as well as the administration would like to find additional ways to reduce bus use and costs. It will take time for options to be explored, vetted, and acted upon.
But FAVE is the least central so the furthest away for the most people. So the most number of young students will be at the bus stops the earliest. This seems a little extreme.
Get the high schoolers off the bus and let them start at 8:45 so they have plenty of time to walk to school. Put 4/5 and RMS on the same buses, let 4/5 start at 8:30 and RMS at 8:45 and you’re done. RMS and DHS get out at the same time so can collaborate on sports and after-school clubs or programs.4/5 are getting on the bus about the time K-3s are leaving the house to walk to school. Simple! Why is this so hard?
LIKE! LIKE! LIKE! Yippee’s plan! Where was this possibility in the discussion?
Thanks for the chart! Much easier to get than the last article. I for once don’t have much opinion. So I just need to know when we are supposed to be there.
I am thrilled with the change. I have a child at FAVE this year and a 3:45 dismissal is very late. There is little time to get homework done, get to after-school activities, and have playtime. This age of children still need playtime, and getting home at 4:00 is just too late. With a little adjustment, we can get up earlier and get him to to school by 7:45. (We could do the bus, but I prefer my child to eat at home for breakfast, so we use a carpool system in our neighborhood.)
And speaking of carpools … Families that are frustrated by similar start/end times at different, try a carpool. It works great!
Thank you board members for making a thoughtful and thorough decision!
Re: carpools. Could the FAVE PTA or admin send out a notice to families who will have students at FAVE next year asking those who are interested in carpooling to submit their addresses and contact info? Then redistribute the compiled information to those who submitted it, so that families can get in touch with one another. It might help increase the amount of carpooling, which would be good in all sorts of ways.
Thanks school board. Good call. Of course, no matter what decision you made, I had someone getting up crazy early.
Now fix the calendar.
I am a big fan of the change! I have a child at FAVE this year and the the 3:45 end time is horrible! There is no time for a lot of activities and free time in the afternoon. We are working parents who have to be at our job before 8:45. It has been a pain to coordinate the mornings so my child isn’t standing outside waiting for the doors to open.
Thank you CSD for listening!!!!!!!
The early dismissal is good if there is a parent at home at 2:30, but for other families it will mean afterschool care that wasn’t needed before or more hours of afterschool care for the child and since school starts earlier it will be a longer day for those kids.
wow, where I grew up in the savannah area, the schools were always 830-330.
Wonder how they did it without the 45 minute interval that our bus routes seem to need.