Can the Proposed Suburban Plaza Walmart Change 15% of Shoppers’ Travel Behaviors?
Decatur Metro | December 8, 2011The gauntlet has been thrown!
In an article in The Champion newspaper this week County Commissioner Jeff Rader says that in order for Walmart to receive the parking variance it has requested to build fewer spaces than is required under the current code, they will need to “have to show how their project will adapt and change people’s travel behaviors.”
OK, so this is obviously isn’t a really much of a gauntlet. It’s a purposely vague statement, as one should expect from a public official expected to weigh the pros and cons of any development for a community. But it sure would be interesting to think about what it would take to change the travel behaviors of Walmart shoppers, wouldn’t it??
So if the Walmart design needs to “adapt and change people’s travel behaviors” the first, most obvious questions are “How many people?”and “change their travel behaviors in what ways?”
First, the “How many people?” question. If you’re a black-and-white sorta person you’re answer might be 517 trips. The site requires spots for 1,786 spaces and Selig wants to have supply just 1,269 spaces. 517 spaces is 29% of available parking.
Now, while most smart-growth advocates will do a spit-take if the word “Walmart” is mentioned in polite conversation, they also have a tendency to spray just as much Pinot on you if you were to bring up a parking ordinance that requires an absurd number of spots. (They will smash the wine glass against a wall if you mention the extra spots will pave over a pocket park and/or a historic streetfront retail building). So what to do with a Walmart that wants fewer spaces? Ack…the internal strife!
So in recognition of the absurdity of the parking ordinance, let’s cut that number in half. So 15%.
Can Walmart/Selig show that they can change the travel behaviors of 15% of their customers? Is such a thing even possible when you build in a very car-dependent area and your business model relies on selling lots and lots of very large items everyday? This doesn’t seem like a quick fix.
So what is being proposed to “change people travel behaviors?
One way that’s been looked at is making the area more bike-friendly Al was good enough to create this mock up showing a proposed bike corridor around the property…
Is it possible? Maybe. Will it convince 15% of customers to get on their bikes? Probably not.
Walmart and Selig have also proposed more greenspace and a revitalized rest-of-Suburban Plaza, which would make an totally unwalkable property slightly more walkable, but do very little to deal with the car-dominated development beyond the property lines. For that, Selig and Walmart have voiced support for Emory (existent) and Decatur’s (non-existent) shuttle services. What is that worth? (You can hear more conversation surrounding this in the video from the Decatur Heights meeting with Selig/Walmart reps)
Will these proposed changes be enough to change the travel behaviors of 15% of Walmart/Suburban Plaza shoppers? It seems unlikely due to the intrinsic challenges of the site and the business model of the store.
Is there ANYTHING you believe that Walmart and Selig can do at this point to change 15% of people’s travel behaviors? Build a condo building with streetfront retail? Sponsor a shuttle to downtown Decatur?
DeKalb’s Zoning Board of Appeals will hear the Walmart parking variance request on Wednesday, December 14th at 1pm. Whether they’ll hold Walmart/Selig up to any level as the one alluded to by Mr. Rader is yet to be seen. But it’s interesting to think about it more specific terms.
It would be interesting to know how many shoppers in that area use MARTA and public transportation. If you look at the Buford Highway corridor, a great number of shoppers are using public transportation. Population density is much greater there, though.
Selig can build you a large scale residential property if you want one…take a look at Brookhaven near Oglethorpe University.
If a MARTA station is built nearby there will be a scramble to build high density housing, since developers are (were) entitled to generous tax incentives for building near transit stations. (Again look at Brookhaven.)
I’m about as far removed from being a Walmart shill as anyone could be, but gotta take issue with the premise here. The “parking debate” does nothing but demonstrate that, when we defer to inflexible percentages rather than practical realities in our decision making, we end up with a process fully incapable of achieving any manner of meaningful consensus or shared benefit.
Looking only at the regulations and the proposal, everything you bring up seems relevant. But the most relevant detail of all is hardly getting mentioned: At least according to the Medlock Neighbors website, Walmart’s proposed parking count is 3.91 spaces per 1,000 sq. ft. which is essentially identical to the count that currently exists at Suburban Plaza and has so for decades. In other words, people are making an issue out of something that has performed without incident or complaint for as long as anyone can remember. The implied need for any change in behavior is a straw man.
Yes, Walmart will draw more traffic than what’s there now but Suburban’s been bustling before. All without incident. Why? Because 4 spaces per 1,000 feet meets the needs of auto-dependent retail and Walmart knows it (because it performs just fine all across the country in the many places where it’s the standard). Their shoppers shop price and convenience. There’s no way they’re gonna build a store that has people shlepping down residential streets because they couldn’t find a space. Because those people will go elsewhere.
Which is all to say that maybe Rader is looking for some sort of political cover or something. Who can say? But what’s for sure is that every single one of the new Walmart’s customers could still arrive via car and there will still be enough parking.
Could it be leverage to get WM to chip in on some transportation alternative? I don’t suppose Rader would be interested in helping Decatur jump-start its long overdue shuttle system. That really might change some peoples driving habits, and not just to Suburban Plaza.
The idea of a bike path around the SP property sounds great, and would work fine for people riding from downtown Decatur or the Decatur side of Scott Blvd. The problem is there’s no safe way for those biking from Sycamore Drive, N. Decatur (both directions), Lawrenceville/Scott from the East, or Medlock from the North to safely get across the busy intersections. The six-way at Scott/N. Decatur/Medlock is already a nightmare for those not in 4-wheeled vehicles, and can only be expected to get worse (due to Walmart and continued area growth).
The six-point intersection looks like a prime candidate for a roundabout.
I’ve been saying that for years. It is exhibit A of the kind of intersection that would benefit from a roundabout.
I’m somewhat encouraged that it might actually happen someday. If you look at the N. Decatur corridor, traffic circles have been added at Lullwater, and then Emory. It seems that continuing that progression leads to one at Clairmont/N. Decatur, and then finally at Scott/Medlock/N. Decatur.
“The six-way at Scott/N. Decatur/Medlock is already a nightmare”
I think the idea is to cross the that intersection on Medlock Road, but you make a good point about Sycamore Dr.
Decatur calls for bike lines on Church St in the “C-streets” stuff. Time for a creative design workshop.
If anyone can prove that the code-required parking places per square foot is anything but arbitrary, I’d like to see the proof. The argument either way is into the wind and Mr Rader can’t provide proof one way or the other.
Totally agree. The idea that reducing the requirement necessitates behavior change assumes that the current requirement is perfectly calibrated.
As I suspected, the 5.5 space requirement is BS. County Staff admitted at the hearing that it was high and other county’s requirements are much lower. Had it been in line with other counties, the variance never would have been necessary.
What happens if/when WalMart hits one of the springs rumored to be under Suburban? Emory has given up on underground parking due to hitting rock and springs which drives up the cost significantly.
Finding a spring might be a Godsend. Perhaps they could tap it as an alternate source of water during droughts. LOL
BTW, there will also be a “vault” for collecting storm water, so there will be lots of digging (possibly requiring blasting if there’s rock). Maybe that entire side of Greater Decatur will be sucked into a giant sinkhole. LOL
“Maybe that entire side of Greater Decatur will be sucked into a giant sinkhole. LOL”
Like Will and Holly on their routine expedition.
If Walmart sponsors CCTMA/Emory/CDC shuttles or has it own shuttle buses (which might also go to the Decatur MARTA train station), then there may be some fairly high shopper numbers there. Given the Emory satellite parking at North Dekalb Mall, with stops already at the Medlock/N Dec Rd/Scott intersection, this may be a way for people to get shopping done after work. Similar could be done for employees that currently take the bus from Clifton Corridor to the MARTA train station.
Jeff, I assume you’re aware the plan to run the Clifton Corridor dedicated center-of-the-road path along Scott from Clairemont, take a right turn at N. Decatur, take any of several alternative routes to either Winn Way or DeKalb Industrial Way, then up Arcadia to Sam’s Crossing at the “Avondale” MARTA station. As I recall, DM posted about it a while back. I suppose we can assume that, if and when that is built, enough behaviors will be modified so people will go to/from Walmart on MARTA and put up with the hassle (to them and others) of carrying one or more big packages on MARTA. I can see a fraction of the 10% of people in the area without vehicles (according to the traffic study) doing that, but not more than a few % of those with cars. I know I would not. Would you?
I’ll go to Walmart by car, as God intended.
LOL! Parker, sometimes I just want to give you the biggest fist-bump!
More seriously, I wonder if this conversation will lead to a particular unexpected consequence. My least favorite thing about the Walmart shopping experience is transversing the vast and crowded parking lot on foot. I guess it is the result of trying to cram in as many parking spots as possible, but when I have to cross the lot at the Memorial Walmart (and others) I feel like I could get backed over at any time. No pedestrian crosswalks or safe routes separated from the traffic. None of these big box stores would be as unpleasant if they had more park-like amenities in their lots. Trees would be nice, too, as long as I’m dreaming.
I fear that in order to get the variance, the developer will be forced to cram in every parking space possible.
=3&=
fist bump emoticon
This reminds me of the big to-do when they were building the CVS plaza back in the 90s. Ten years from now we all will be driving to WalMart at Suburban and thinking nothing of it.
“What happens if/when WalMart hits one of the springs rumored to be under Suburban?”
If recent history is our guide then look at the Chamblee Walmart with underground parking. The way they built that was to build up the surrounding area and not to dig down into the earth.
Leaky, my understanding is Walmart will NOT be putting the parking at street level and burming up to it to make that appear to be ground level. The zoning has a 35 ft maximum height restriction, and I believe that’s from street level. Their rep has specfically stated they will have underground parking, at great expense, and “SpraWalmart” (as David cleaverly coined it) is the only company which can afford to do it.
The only reason Walmart wants a variance is to build a bigger store on the property. Their research shows that a store has be soo big before it makes them enough money.
That said I really hate the idea of Sprawalmart in suburban plaza purely for aesthetic reasons.
Believe me it will set Decatur back 20 years.
I don’t understand how a development outside the City, a mile away, with a completely different form from that found in Decatur proper and Oakhurst, can set the City back 20 years. Continued deterioration with attendant crime could set the City back. 20 years ago there was no nightlife, no boutique shops, nobody on the street after 6PM. I don’t think having Wally 2 hills away would bring us back to that.
Just for the record, Steve, SP is slightly over a mile from the Historic Courthouse, but only 5 football fields (500 yds) outside the city limits. Had SP been incorporated by the City as desired a few years back, a mixed use development (similar to that for the old DeVry property) probably would have been specified. That would be much more to the liking of most Decaturites, but would not have been built until the economy turns around. Ironically, some of the neighbors not so happy with having Wallymart as a neighbor fought annexation into Decatur, predominantly because of the higher taxes. DeKalb County all but bent over and touched its toes to help WM build on the old Avondale Mall site on Memorial, so we can expect the same in this case. Most of us think anything (except strip clubs, auto pawn shops, and such) would be better than the way SP looks now, but WM is hardly our preference, and there is already one just 3.7 miles from this site, should we get the urge for cheap stuff assembled by underpaid workers in China. Walmart believes it can build SuperCenters every 3-5 miles in heavily populated areas. This site is great for driving Kroger, Publix, and CVS out of business. And, since WM is considering entering the primary health care business (I can find and link the article if anyone doubts this), this site is well situated very near one hospital and not far from another.
This morning Walmart confirmed it will be jumping into the primary care business: http://bit.ly/DoctorWalmart — something I’d read before. While that might be good for us as patients, it means doctors in the area are now also at risk of being driven out of business by a low-cost supplier trying to make healthcare a commodity business.
If Walmart can offer a doctor’s care at a discount for the low-income and uninsured, then that’s the least worst thing they’re doing. I’ll actually pat them on the back for it.
Hate to break it to ya, darlin’, but the insurance companies made medicine a commodity business years ago. That ship sailed long before WallyWorld decied to cash in on it.
1000% correct!
There are many other ways to revitalize an area that don’t require bringing in a big box store. Unfortunately this is the easiest one for the powers that be to understand. This kind of store is so out of scale with the rest of the area as to be laughable. Go stand in front of the Chamblee store and then imagine it plunked down in suburban plaza. It’s like an aircraft carrier in a swimming pool.
As far as I’m concerned this kind of store is a dinosaur and deserves the fate.
Sorry that should have read “deserves the same fate”
This is stupid. WalMart has too many parking places. Go by Columbia Drive sometime if you don’t believe me. If they say they can make do with fewer, then they can make do with fewer.
Decatur is not Snellville
You’re right about that, Dana. By virtue of its size, Walmart has more data on consumer metrics and patterns than any organization in the world, including governments. The suggestion that it somehow benefits them to develop fewer parking spaces than they need, sending potential customers elsewhere, is ludicrous.
What benefits them is building exactly the number they need, and no more. And they’ve got more than enough data to pinpoint that number.
It’s maddening that this variance is the only tool opponents have to work with. Maybe someday residents will finally clue in that they’re governed by land use regulations guaranteed to produce a form of development that no one seems to want. That’s what happened in Decatur and the rules were changed accordingly. It could happen in DeKalb too, if voters mobilized to push the issue.
You’ll need a catchy catchphrase. And a common enemy. Then you’ll be good to go.
Ha. Not my fight. I opt instead for the peace of mind paid for with my higher Decatur taxes.
I’m telling you this has nothing to do with the amount of parking and everything to do with the size of the store.
I agree with you, David, that that’s what people are ultimately upset about. But the size of the store adheres to the present zoning and requires no variance. So folks need to make it about the parking instead because that’s the only place they have a voice. It’s unfortunate, because it creates a battle around what is essentially a non-issue.
Correct me if I’m wrong, Scott, but isn’t the parking regulation stated as X spots per Y sq. ft. of store space. So, the two are inter-related. If WM doesn’t get the variance, it doesn’t have any room to add more parking. So, it will probably reduce the store size, which is what we’d really like to see happen. It could also elect to not go through with the project, which would be OK with me.
Amen!
My biggest concern (not mentioned in this thread, probably in another) is WM’s history of closing and leaving a huge abandoned home-value-sucking monstrosity behind. Another site claims that crime rates go up in n’hoods with WMs. I’ve been in Medlock Park 20 years, still paying a mortgage (or two) and this house is my main retirement nest egg. Does anyone know of evidence to the contrary about these claims?
I believe at the Medlock meeting, the Walmart rep said that they have never closed a Supercenter. Do you have conflicting evidence?
DM, I don’t think you got the discussion you were looking for, but I wish you had.
If wrestling over a variance can improve the outcome then I support wrestling over it – whether it’s about more parking, less parking, or paint color. I would probably arrive at Suburban Plaza by car no matter which tenant is there, but I’ll only do so only if the experience is pleasing. Bicycle and pedestrian improvements could help change this area from a place that I avoid to a place where I want to spend time and money.
Such a transformation is larger than the Suburban Plaza parcel, but if Selig can collaborate with the county and coordinate its improvements to the property with enhancements to adjacent streets, then I will try to support Selig’s tenants.
Yeah, it didn’t really happen. Scott got things off to a good start, but I never had the time to follow up.
It may be too pie-in-the-sky to think that at this point, Suburban Plaza can be anything more than what’s now proposed. I’m not going to argue that Walmart doesn’t know how many parking spaces it needs, but if the community has any sort of muscle available to them due to the parking ordinance, they should at least attempt to use it.
This is all really a moot point. Walmart there is a done deal no matter what we do short of occupying the site. I know I won’t shop there but then I don’t shop at Walmart anyway, it just depresses me when I walk into one and realize I’m seeing one of the downsides of globalization. It’s cheaper to pay people nothing and then ship crap halfway around the world then it is to pay people a living wage in your own country. Nice job guys. Nice job.
-1 backdraft maneuver