Superintendent Sends Out Letter Addressing Parent Concerns About Extending School Day
Decatur Metro | March 7, 2011Parents are writing in about a letter they just received from Superintendent Phyllis Edwards about CSD’s plans to extend the school day for K-3 and high school students. You can read the letter in its entirety HERE.
In the letter, the Superintendent details a list of considerations that need to be taken into account regarding a revised school day and reiterates that there is no action item on tomorrow night’s School Board agenda regarding this, and that she will not make a final decision on this topic until after Spring Break. Also, to reassure the community that she is listening, the Superintendent says that she met with all the school principals on this topic today and will seek feedback from CSD’s teachers.
This letter says a lot about CSDs attitude toward parental involvement. Some of the prized excerpts:
“This is an administrative decision, not a policy decision and one that I have made for several
years now. It would also not be feasible to go to the School Leadership Teams since the
start and end times for school all impact other schools’ start and end times.”
“To reassure you that I am listening to you, I plan to meet with principals today. I will
also meet with the transportation director to review options. I will share my thoughts and
the issues with them so you may have more information.”
I interpret these comments as ‘The superintendent knows best, so keep your nose out of my decisions’. There is not one word about getting feedback from parents, SLTs or the school board.
The comments by Decatur Heights Dad in the previous post sum up my thoughts and feelings on this issue. This is an election year – we deserve a school board that expects the CSD staff to view our great community as an asset, not a liability.
I interpret those comments as “It would also not be feasible to go to the School Leadership Teams since the start and end times for school all impact other schools’ start and end times.”
If you pay attention to the letter, and the matrix at the bottom, it is clear that the start/end times for all of the schools are interdependent, and it would be nigh impossible to get a consensus across 6 different SLTs.
Sometimes someone has to make an Executive Decision. That’s why we have executives.
That’s fair enough, but I don’t see this as a reason not to get input from the SLTs regarding the start and ends times, what the plusses and minuses are of various options etc., all while making it clear that these decisions cannot be made on a school by school basis. The members of the SLTs are adults and can understand that the decision is district-wide, while still giving their $.02 as involved members of their school community. They’re people who have a valuable perspective that ought to be listened to, if you want to make a well-informed decision, not merely an executive one.
So if it is impossible to get a consensus, are you saying there’s no need to get feedback from parents, teachers and principals? Yes, someone has to make a decision but I would prefer it be an informed decision and since this decision affects parents, teachers and principals as well as the bus schedule, I would think it wise to seek input from all parties before making a decision.
I agree that we don’t need 7 SLTs coming up with their own schedules, but some important feedback could have been:
1. Would parents prefer the extra 30 minutes be added in the morning or the afternoon?
2. How would an earlier 30 minute start time impact how your child gets to school?
(I bike with my children to Glennwood in the mornings, and we need bike lights for two winter months already)
3. Etc, etc.
Wouldn’t this have been a great assignment for our communications director?
Going to the School Leadership Teams (SLTs) doesn’t need to be about seeking a consensus. Particularly about system-wide issues which are clearly the purview of the Board, superintendent and central office planning. There would be a lot to gain by keeping the SLTs in the loop and allowing the local school governing bodies to provide stakeholder input. Then the hot button issues could be identified and representative voices heard and consideration made before decisions are finalized.
I am curious that Dr. Edwards asserts that this is an administrative decision rather than a policy decision. Extending the 6.5 hours K-3 school day by one-half hour adds 90 hours or the equivalent of two weeks of school to our current K-3 schedule.
Extending the school year or school day appears in my google searches to always be accompanied by local board approval. Time permitting, for my own knowledge, I’ll dig into the Georgia legal code. Likewise, our board members have access to legal counsel should they feel that the question is merited.
The letter is nice and it certainly gives more detail, but it does not address how this particular bit of news came to the public’s attention. The decision was mentioned in the 13th paragraph of a document to the school board that, while public, is somewhat hard to find in the eBoard website. It was brought to the public’s attention by DecaturMetro. Personally, this is what I find frustrating about this particular situation. It seems like the administration didn’t realize that this issue would cause concern and so it did not ask for feedback from principals, teachers and parents before the issue was “finalized.” As she points out, this is a decision that she makes herself. I’m not completely sure, but if I’m correct, the K-3 start time has not changed since 2005. As the discussion over this issue illustrates, a change causes consternation, and that could have been headed off by a different way to announce this decision.
[edited: no personal attacks]
This is better, although it seems discrepant with her note: “Simone Elder is working on bus schedules and just the other day, we finalized the start and ending times with the high school getting a 15 minute earlier start and the elementary schools (k-3) will be starting 30 minutes earlier.” Now she says that she’ll be talking with the principals, asking for comments from teachers, and not coming to a final decision before Spring break. I think if Edwards had announced that she was thinking of redoing the schools schedules for reasons X, Y and Z, stating that this might involve schools starting earlier, but saying she’d be talking to people prior to making a final decision, people would have been a lot less bent out of shape than they were.
Anybody have a clue what the 6.3, 6.45, and 7 at the top of the chart in Edwards’ 3/4 memo to Simonia Elder are supposed to stand for? In all three options outlined in the memo, either the 4/5 Academy starts at 7:30 or the middle school and high school do, but K-3 starts at either 8:00, 8:15 or 8:30 (which again is discrepant with the note to the board).
i believe 6.3, 6.45, and 7 refer to the total hours in a school day for the k-3 given those different start/end time possibilities. if i am reading it right…
Ah, that’s it. Thanks. And 7 hours for grades 4-12 on all options.
Important points DSW. It’s hard to have faith and relax that good strategic thinking is underway when this is the haphazard approach to assessing an important issue.
Furthermore, when Bruce Roaden offered “clarification” in a letter to Decatur Metro, it offered no mention of the constraints of bussing or budget, now in this letter from the superintendent I get the sense that this is very much about busing. It doesn’t lead to confidence and thus I think it is reasonable to offer a parental point of view about these issues.
I am also very frustrated that each time recess comes up it seems like a request from demanding parents that they are accommodating…”And recently an outcry from parents for a daily recess”.
I truly am willing to consider rethinking our timings to balance curriculum demands, busing constraints, budget issues and the play and outside time that we all know is so critical to children’s development. But I think the superintendent is truly tone deaf if she wants to frame time for recess as an outcry from parents.
When did recess become so optional? When did it go away?
This is an opportunity for our school system to refine its strategy and values in a way that reflects the community vs. hand slapping parents for asking for things that seem so difficult.
I appreciated the letter and it was right on.
To the point about about ‘personal and sometimes sarcastic statements are not necessary’ – AMEN.
I’m with you, Liz.
I would like it noted for the record that (apparently) I’m the 3rd CSD parent that I could care less about adding 30 minutes to my child’s day. I think she’ll be OK. Even at 7:30 in the morning.
For the record, which school?
I appreciated the letter as well. But the line about “personal and sometimes sarcastic statements” would have been unnecessary had the letter been sent out informing us that a change was coming and asking for feedback. I agree that our comments, both in e-mails to the administration and on this blog, should be constructive and refrain from sarcasm and personal attacks. But we don’t live in a perfect world and when one reaches the position of a school superintendent answerable to an elected board, one should expect that to come with the territory, unfortunately.
I also chose to live in Decatur in part to the reputation of the school system and for the most part, my two children have had a very positive experience with some really great teachers. It is for that reason that I find this issue puzzling. Clearly, this is a change that needs some discussion and will, in the end, likely lead to some disagreement. So to announce in this manner and clearly without having consulted teachers and principals is baffling to me.
Just to chime in, I found it odd and inappropriate that the superintendent of a city school system would take time in a policy letter to complain about sarcasm and personal attacks. It’s not that it gives the letter a peevish tone (although it does) – it’s much more that indulging in that kind of personal, hurt-feelings language seems to be misdirected energy for a professional dedicated to the best possible education for our children. We as parents are certainly not perfect, but we’re also not paid to deal with all the difficulties of a school system – and for good or ill, snarky parents constitute one of those difficulties. I’m not saying that sarcasm is justified, nor am I endorsing it – but I am saying that we have a right to expect a superintendent who continues to focus on the important questions and not engage in/indulge that kind of interaction.
On the actual question of school times: family illness prevented me from making it to the meeting, but was there any mention of making the day later and not earlier? and thanks, all, for a productive conversation.
As a Dekalb resident (with kids in Fernbank), I’d like to throw in that her times for Dekalb Elementary schools are incorrect. At FB, school is from 8 to 2:30. Now, they don’t have spanish every day (that is a once per week ‘special’, along with art, music, etc) but they do have gym every day and ‘wiggle’ time, a 10-20 minute break (depending on grade). If the super is attempting to justify the change of time based on other local school systems, she ought to check her facts better.
Let’s let google do the hard stuff. Searching on Dekalb county elementary “school hours” and similar taking the first url recognizable as belonging to a school:
Dekalb Flat Rock Elementary
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/schools/elementary/flatrock
7:45AM – 2:15PM (6 hours 30 minutes)
Cobb County
Mountain View Elementary School
http://www.cobbk12.org/MtView/
7:55AM – 2:20PM (6 hours 25 minutes)
Cherokee County
[All Elementary Schools]
http://www.cherokee1.k12.sc.us/school_hours.pdf
8:00AM – 2:25PM (6 hours 25 minutes)
Clayton County
Hawthorne Elementary
http://clayton.131.schooldesk.net/
7:45AM – 2:15PM (6 hours 30 minutes)
Atlanta Public Schools
Cook Elementary
http://srt3.atlantapublicschools.us/17552010817122757/site/default.asp
7:50AM – 2:30PM (6 hours 40 minutes)
Pickens County
Liberty Elementary School
http://pickens.les.schoolfusion.us/modules/cms/pages.phtml?pageid=188433&sessionid=ae656c3776ea3d281b2ebacf20f494b5
8AM-2:30PM (6 hours 30 minutes)
Douglas County
Holly Springs Elementary School
[had to dig until I reached the school handbook]
http://images.pcmac.org/SiSFiles/Schools/GA/DouglasCounty/HollySpringsElementary/Uploads/Publications/Holly%20Springs%20Student%20Parent%20Handbook%202010-2011.pdf
8AM-2:15PM (6 hours 15 minutes)
Gwinnett County
Simonton Elementary
http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/SimontonES/home.html
8:50AM – 3:20PM (6 hours 30 minutes)
All neighboring school systems appear to have school days which are within 10 minutes of a 6 1/2 hour day. I’m not sure where the references to longer days in Dekalb, Douglas, or Pickens come from. It is possible it is simply a mistake confusing earliest drop-off times.
Wow, so “mere” parents who don’t do this for a living can get the facts right in a few spare minutes one afternoon. However, an administrator whose very job is to get this right misses the mark?
The scary thing is that this isn’t the first time that this has happened.
I did a google search on all the neighboring school systems listed. I posted the results a couple hours ago, but it appears to be hung up waiting for moderation.
So the results without the links…
All neighboring school systems appear to have school days which are within 10 minutes of a 6 1/2 hour day. The references to longer school days in Dekalb, Douglas, and Pickens appears to fail a simple fact check. It is possible it is simply a mistake confusing earliest drop-off times.
Two items in the letter which bother me:
-top of page 2, “elementary schools’ activities actually start now earlier than the official start time.” Huh?
-discussion point on page 2, “HS and MS are interrupting instructional times for extra-curriculum activities,” …and lunch (in HS). it is my understanding that for some HSers, lunch falls during a class period / between two instructional periods of the same subject.
Am I reading this correctly? I’m reading this as the choices are:
Option 1: Keep everything the same
Option 2: Keep everything the same but have the 4/5 start 45 minutes earlier at 7:30 AM!!! and Renfroe start and end 5 minutes later
Option 3: Have the K-3 start 15 minutes earlier, the 4/5 start 45 minutes earlier at 7:30 AM!!! and Renfroe start and end 5 minutes later
Option 4: Have the K-5 start and end 15 minutes later but have Renfroe and the High School begin and end an HOUR EARLIER at 7:30 and 2:30 PM
Options 2-3 sound horrible for either the 4/5 kids or the teens, not to mention meaning that there’s more time in the afternoon to worry about what the kids are doing. Can we stick with Option 1, no change. What happened to the option of starting the K-3s at 7:45 AM and the high school at 8:17 AM? Is that option off the table now?
My !!! and capitalization are not sarcasm but concern.
This may or may not be sarcasm but this is a blog, not a church: The poster who said they would eat their hat if this wasn’t about transportation does not have to eat felt. Eight of the ten decision points have to do with transportation logistics.
Trying to be fair, I appreciate getting this information. But I am not happy with Options 2-3 which have 7:30 AM start times which means 7:10 AM free and reduced breakfasts, which means 6:30 AM bus pick-up times. Logistics were figured into the reconfiguration options and decisions. Students shouldn’t have to get up unnaturally early because we picked an option with logistics issues. CSD should either pay the higher transportation costs or perhaps we can all put our heads together for a transportation strategy that would allow decent start times. Some suggestions were made on this blog like having a second round of pick-ups and using cheaper buses and/or vans and/or organizing community carpools.
Why don’t we use the newly endorsed Strategic Plan Decatur-to-Oakhurst shuttles to haul the kids around?
You may be facetious but I like the idea or a variant of it! Seriously, anyone who systematically observed drop-off or pick-up at Glennwood would see that there’s lots of informal carpools and walking/biking packs. Some of it is that the buses aren’t convenient, some of it is that Glennwood isn’t that convenient for many families but some of it is just the plain pack behavior of Decaturites. We like to hang out with another whether it be at Clairemont’s Friday morning coffee, after church, bumping into one another at Dancing Goat, carpooling places, or on Decatur Metro! One of my children is in a walking pack of friends and another is in a carpool that started out as kids/parents who happened to end up biking at the same time last fall but then congealed into a carpool when the weather got colder. These arrangements just evolved so think of how much more could happen if some organization was put into it.
Maybe creative thinking about transportation won’t be enough to balance the budget but could it at least help preserve reasonable start times for all of our schools?
I apologize–I just noticed that the chart indicates that the 4/5 students would start 1/2 hour earlier than now, not 45 minutes earlier as I stated for Options 2 and 3. I must have read the table wrong. Nonetheless,I don’t think this age group is going to do any better with a 7:30 AM start than K-3ers would.
And now that I’m seeing that high school/middle school parents and their students are also upset about a potential 7:30 AM start time, I think 7:30 AM is just plain early for school to start. No one seems to like it.
Question–and I’m admitting ahead of time that I may be off-base so please forgive me–but do we need buses for the high school except for students with a handicap or special need? My impression is that almost no teenagers are taking the bus willingly. I’m not even sure they take it in bad weather.
No… our 6.5 hours of school for K-3 is very typical… we do not have one of the shortest school days in Metro Atlanta. In fact I am unable to find an elementary school with a 7 hour day… though I’m sure a couple exist somewhere.
And.. I’m not particularly moved by admins feeling burdened by pressure from the folks they serve. I make a salary fairly similar to our top admins… and I have to deal with unpleasantness and pressure.. and sarcasm… and attacks from time to time. It comes with the income level… actually now that I think about it, it comes with any income level.
Do the high school students realize that extending the day is accompanied by starting at 7:30? It’s a package deal.
What? There’s a communications director?! And that person let this snarky letter go out?
Communications? Have you seen the report cards, the calendar? Two small examples that the dissemination of info to the parents needs improvement.
What? 7:30 for high school and middle school? Say it ain’t so!
It could be worst. I used to live in Gwinnett county and their high school time is 7:15-2:15. I would hear buses going through the neighborhood at 6:30 in the morning for pick up.
I went to high school in Gwinnett county and can confirm those were our hours. But I do think having a later start for high schoolers is better. Way back when the argument was that we had more time in the afternoons for working jobs, but I like the argument that the less unsupervised time in the afternoons, the better.
I didn’t realize that the school day for K-3 officially starts at 8:15. We’ve been showing up at 8 am for morning assembly. My suggestion is to make 8 am the “official” start time, and eliminate morning assembly. Add that extra 15 minutes on to recess. The improvement in kids’ behavior should make instruction time more efficient. (Side note: Think about eliminating snack time as well. My first grader’s snack time is currently during recess. Seems to defeat the purpose of recess to me.)
I am vehemently opposed to start time earlier than 8 am for K-3. I am less vehemently, but strongly opposed to extending the school day at all, even in the afternoon. I do hope a solution can be found which everyone can live with.
At some point I think the issue of the efficacy of daily homework for such young children should also be addressed.
What about a survey to high school students?
Do you want to get to school on your own by 8:30 or catch a bus for a 7:30 start time?
If the survey says option 1, with the understanding that are most likely some students who legitimately can’t make it to school on their own, set up one bus route that serves the city. It probably will still pick up later than a bus schedule for a 7:30 start time.
Does the superintendent realize that some Decatur HS teachers use the time between 7:30 – 8:30 to do academic work with students at a time that doesn’t interfere with after school clubs and sports?
I hope this idea for 7:30 start time for HS students fades fast.
How is the superintendent chosen in Decatur? If elected let’s nominate a more competent replacement. Of chosen by the board then board members need to step up. If city council then they need to get involved.
[edited: no personal attacks]
I agree 100%. How completely UNPROFESSIONAL of her to gripe about people being upset that she tried to slide in a start time change for K-3 to accommodate bus schedules. Bus schedules that would probably not be as demanding if she didn’t decide to place the 4-5 academy outside of the 1-mile walking zone for probably 75% of the eligible students.
As I said in a different thread, COD residents have 3 choices:
1) Do nothing and continue to succeed but not thrive;
2) Pressure the Board to reign her in and hold her accountable to the various Leadership Teams and other checks & balances in place; or
3) Remove her for someone who is willing to work with the resources available to make the CSD the best school system in the country.
COD Resources:
1) Great kids
2) Great teachers who must hold a Masters.
3) Parents who actively give time & resources to the schools.
4) A solid educational curriculum (expeditionary learning)
5) A gaggle of college educated parents.
6) A Strong property tax base.
7) A financially supportive business community
8) Manageable geographic area
There are stacks and stacks of research that show that adolescents do not do well with early school start times. The big movement is to go to later start times for this age group. Maybe the thought in central office is to put forth another alternative so ludicrous that everyone ends up happy with the early K-3 start time?
And… I don’t think we need teenagers having another hour in the afternoons to be left to their own devices.
I’m still not really getting why anything has to be changed at all. Things seemed to be working quite well just like they are.
Unfortunately due to a slashing budget, loss of the Glenwood bus hub and the addition of another K-3 things can’t stay “just like they are”
Amen! 7:30 start time for high schoolers is insane … as is letting them out at 2:30. I hope you’re right that this is just a red herring.
DM- I think it is time to leave it be…
The parents in CSD system should be thankful after looking around and seeing what is going on around them in other systems…I think you might complain no matter what goes… So sad that you can be so ungrateful… Maybe watch Waiting for Superman- many of those kids would be just fine with a 30 minute change!
Yeah, letting the board and the administration have unquestioned authority over the school system are probably the reasons DeKalb and APS have been so successful…
“Ungrateful”? “Thankful”? Phyllis Edwards did not build this school system. It was good before she walked in the door 8 years ago. A couple of generations of parents and administrators before her gave her- and us- a pretty nice gift and it didn’t happen by parents not being involved and vocal. The current administration has done some good things, but it is naive to think they could have accomplished anything without this community of very involved parents- and their tax dollars. This is a public school and these are public employees. Decisions and how those decisions are made and communicated have public consequences.
Charlie, I agree City Schools of Decatur is great. Whether the school day gets longer or moves forward or backward… City Schools of Decatur will still be great.
I would however like for our facts to be straight. There is nothing personal about correcting mistakes or misrepresentations. Decisions based on bad data have a greater likelihood of being bad decisions.
It has been stated that lengthening the school day is an administrative decision not a board policy decision. A friend of mine pointed out that Georgia law would appear to indicate otherwise. State BOE Rule 160-5-1.02: “The LBOE shall establish and approve the school day and school year for students in grades K12 at a regularly scheduled LBOE meeting.”
Let us also be clear that 180 days with an extra 30 minutes per day is the equivalent of extending the K-3 school year by 2 weeks.
If the day is getting longer because there is a belief that by increasing instruction time that we will increase learning, then I would like to see the evidence based research supporting that claim. I understand that KIPP schools have had some success. But Miami schools have not. The research seems to say that for extending school days to be a success, it requires rethinking instruction not incrementally tacking on more of the same.
However, if the Board is willing to amend district policy to ensure that all elementary students receive 3x 10 minute or 2x 15 minute blocks of unstructured break time (recess) which can not be withheld as a punishment… -Then I’m good with that. Because I know there is a lot of research that shows that just like adults, kids need breaks. And that academic performance, behavior, attentiveness, and physical activity all improve.
The other side issue is homework. Some but not all of our K-3 students have an additional 1.5 to 2 hours tacked on to every day in the form of homework. I know that despite many efforts to make the link, there is _no_ research to support any academic benefit from assigning homework in the early primary grades. If our superintendent and board would officially acknowledge and discourage the “routine” of homework, that would go a long way toward shortening our effective school days.
Our students which take the bus in many cases have an extra 1.5 to 2 hour commute. Looking at it from their perspective, what we’re talking about is whether or not it is reasonable to add another half hour to an 11 hour day. For me, it all depends on what we intend to do with that time.
“Because everyone else is doing it” has never been a good reason. -It also appears to be false.
“Extra time for instruction” isn’t a good reason. The data is mixed and indicates more needs to be done than incrementally doing more of the same.
“Guaranteeing 30 minutes of unstructured break time every day.” _is_ a good reason. The data supports it.
[Note: I'm not supplying links to the research, because I have already provided them in previous threads.]
Charlie,
You’ve touched upon a frequent frustration of mine: Fellow CSD parents who lead with anger and/or don’t seem to speak or act from the point of view that their children are part of a COMMUNITY of students with a range of needs that must be addressed. This group is definitely a minority; considering the impressive level of parent involvement in our district, I’ve found discourse to be civil overall.
It is this level of parent involvement that makes it crucial for CSD administration to do a better job in the communications arena. Let’s be honest: When you have a community where houses cost this much and many parents have high levels of education, you get an increased sense of privilege. It’s a double-edged sword: Participation in decision-making, scrutiny of decisions, and higher-than-average knowledge of how these things affect students and schools makes for a richer dialog and a better-informed administration and community. It’s also an enormous pain for administrators, whose mental bandwidth and resources become increasingly taxed in these hard times. I’m not saying that the poor choice of words or questionable policy decisions should slide–I’m saying that when we respond and confront, we must do so civilly, keeping in mind that everyone in this situation is a member of the same community.
I admit that I’m not the most informed parent when it comes to district policy, but I do my best to keep abreast of issues that I feel will affect not only my own children, but the community as a whole. If the decision is made to start ANY of the schools’ days earlier, if the idea that recess is crucial to a good education is dismissed, and/or if parental input is not considered where it is mandated, the administration is going to find it harder to do its job from then on.
If we parents can keep our composure and remain sympathetic to the adminstrators’ positions, it is much more likely that there will an outcome that is favorable to the community.
Yes, what Al said.
Thanks, Al! You’re my hero!
Many (most?) of us ARE thankful for CSD. It is a common sentiment and we choose to stay in Decatur, and do fundraising and room parenting and …, because it is the best choice. That doesn’t mean it can’t always be better — that’s Dr. Edwards goal, too — or that we can’t be concerned and voice that. Decatur is not a place where people aren’t involved, don’t really care, and look the other way. Thankful for that, too.
I am sympathetic to Dr. Edwards, understand it’s a lot to juggle but I am really concerned about moving the school day of the teens even earlier. I thought the schools later start time took this into consideration, I’m virtually positive I’ve heard Mr. Roaden talk about the sleep cycle in relation to his talks about the middle school brain.
My middle schooler came home today quite agitated saying “oh no Mom” – and (paraphrasing here) “They are going to make us go to school earlier and I can barely wake up as it is, and I’m always so sleepy anyway in first period and my friends who have to ride the bus will always be exhausted and we’ll all do worse in school. And by the way, my teacher did not have enough copies of a test for everyone in the class today and left the class to make copies but didn’t come back in time with them so a bunch of us have to go in a half hour early to take it. What if that happens with an early start time? I’ll be so tired I’ll never be able to focus enough to pass…” (Disclaimer – she was freaked out and speaking in a huge run on and I don’t know if the bit about the test is accurate or just her interpretation of events, was trying to calm her down at that point so didn’t go into it too far.)
I wonder if everything could be moved back instead of forward – less time at after care, etc. instead of sacrificing sleep.
I can’t come to the meeting, have other meetings, but look forward to hearing what happened.
My middle schooler (soon to be high schooler) and her friends are completely freaking also. She came home knowing about it before I did. I don’t know if they announced it at school or some teachers talked about it or what.
This goes against the most recent research on adolescent learning and health. I’m sure that this is just being thrown in there to show how bad it could be b/c CSD is too cutting edge to crank back teenager school start times in the face of all the research. The school day for middle and high school was deliberately moved up not too long ago by CSD because they recognized that teenagers are simply not alert in the early morning…. as a result of biology. If they want to see achievement and behavior plummet, CSD will push these kids into school at 7:30.
I can see how this will play out… all the schools will battle each other to see who is the big loser and has to arrive at 7:30ish. Ugh.
Oh! Ugh is right. Even if the schools don’t battle each other, some parents will think they did.
I don’t know how my middle schooler heard about the issue either. She was too freaked out for me to talk to her about that, or the weird ‘not enough tests for the whole class’ issue. It had not been mentioned at home and she doesn’t read DM except over my shoulder.
But FixIt, Was the move back to a later start time ‘deliberate’ to acknowledge biology? I sort of thought I remembered that, or a chat about it at Renfroe.
Also, not important, but apologies for missing punctuation in prior post; ugh seems to be the expression of the moment.
Regarding the affects of later school starts on high school students and academic performance… Many of the research papers on this topic are unavailable for free download. Though most report later school start times are correlated with increased sleep, reduced tardiness, reduced absences, improved attentiveness, lower need for counseling services, etc. Few report statistically significant academic gains.
Statistical gains in test scores (for teens with later school start times verses earlier school start times) are quantifiable and measurable. I’ll get the data . . .
But… buses are more important than all this… as is starting school sports games 15 minutes earlier.
I love how running lights on the DHS field for an 15 extra minutes in the evening is a big concern but running the air conditioning all day and night for three weeks in all seven of the schools in the hottest month of the year is not a significant concern.
How about this? Renfroe and DHS… 8:45 to 3:45…. K-3 8:15-3:00….. 5th Avenue 7:45 to 2:45
That way no one moves in any direction on either end of the school day by more than 15 minutes.
+10
If this satisfies all the parameters in the letter, then this seems like a great compromise. The 4/5 get the slightly shorter end of the stick, especially those students that are travelling from the diagonally opposite corner of town, but we’ve known all along that transportation would be the toughest part of the otherwise gorgeous looking Fifth Avenue school. I still think that Fifth Avenue is a better option than glomming the 4/5 onto the Middle School, especially given that the fiscal situation has gotten no better than when the reconfiguration decisions were being made. I’ll bet the 4/5 would never get its own principal if it were at the Renfroe location and there would be a ton of sharing of staff. I’ve never wanted a school that functioned like a 4-8.
Hmmmm. I will have a 4/5 kid next year and don’t relish having to get her there 15 minutes earlier. However. it seems like the lesser of a mass of evils and I think I could live with that and that she could cope with it. Good thinking Fix.
Offhand, this seems quite reasonable.
I wonder what exactly the logistics of the bus schedule are. A lot of the problems in the proposed schedules in Edwards’ letter, it seems, are caused by needing to have the start times spaced so widely apart compared with the current schedule. If busing logistics really require for each of the school spans under consideration (K-3, 4-5, and 6-12) to be spaced 1/2 hour apart. If so, I like this suggestion.
But with 4 elementary schools now in a small town, how much busing are we going to need for K-3? Would having 20 minutes apart, with k-3 in the middle, would work, how about the following start times:
4-5: 8 a.m.
K-3: 8:20 a.m.
6-12: 8:40 a.m.
This might be unfeasible: maybe spacing things apaer as in in all of the proposals is necessary. But I have my doubts about how carefully this has been thought through, given the shifting backing and forthing on the proposals, the rationales for them, and the inaccurate information about neighboring K-3 schools.
+10 to this schedule too if it is workable.
This does seem to be an obvious fix. Hopefully, the community will think so.
Ugh. I don’t like driving my kids across town for 7:45 start time. However, this does seem like the best solution if there’s no way around the bus issue. It’s certainly better than any other option I’ve seen. I’ll give it an A-.
Here are some interesting BBC articles on the topic!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4579313.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7932950.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/7932108.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6254849.stm
Thank you and hope you enjoy them
Anyone know what this means?
“Students living one mile outside of their school will not receive transportation, unless safety outweighs distance.”
Fourth discussion point in the letter. Really, I’m making sure bus service will be available citywide for 5th Ave, which is on the edge of town. It’s gotta be, but this leapt out at me. Seven of the ten considerations listed regard busing, for what it’s worth.
I’m wondering if it’s a typo and means students living within a mile of their school won’t get bus transportation.
No, it is not a typo; that is the current policy as well.
Actually I spoke with the author and it is a typo.
This may not be a typo though I suspect it is. I believe the intent is that students living within one mile of their school will not receive transportation except to address safety concerns.
Schools are not required nor does the state subsidize transportation for students living less than 1.5 miles from school.
With RMS and DHS being centrally located… -This means that except for disabled students and the “corner cases” transportation to our K-3’s, RMS, and DHS is unlikely to be state subsidized at all. [The area of a circle with a radius of 1.5 miles is ~7 sq mi... -Greater than the size of Decatur (4.2 sq mi)]
In the light of this, my recommendation would be that we consider adopting a pay as you go transportation fee for students living less than 1 to 1.5 miles from schools. And that Free and Reduced Lunch (FRL) kids always get free transportation. If the cost of transportation is not covered by tax payer dollars then we should consider continuing to provide the service to those willing to pay for it. I am sure however that the details and logistics are more complicated as this whole discussion of school start times based on transportation schedules indicates.
Georgia school code 20-2-188 (d) states:
(d) Students who live beyond one and one-half miles from the school to which they are assigned, according to the nearest practical route by school bus, shall be eligible to be counted as transported students for the purpose of calculating that portion of the expense of student transportation associated with transporting students from home to school and from school to home as authorized under subsection (a) of this Code section, provided such students are actually transported to such school by school bus or other vehicle made available for this purpose by the local unit of administration. Any student who resides within such mileage limitation shall not be eligible to be counted for school transportation state-aid purposes, with the exception of disabled students being transported.
I am curious how she chose 5th Avenue to be the one to start early. Of all the school options this is the only one that is NOT somewhat centrally located to all the students. It will definitely be the location with the most transportation challenges, especially for anyone like me who lives on the north side of Decatur.
I love Oakhurst and spend a lot of time on the south side of Decatur, but the thought of getting my kids up and to 5th Ave by 7:30 will certainly impact all those perfect attendance certificates they pride themselves on.
Lengthen the day, but PLEASE don’t start 5th Ave at 7:30!!!!!!!!
Which school would you prefer? 7 years of high school and middle school? Very young children? Or, kids at a relatively stable point in their childhood for just two years? Regardless of the outcome, we are all going to have an early start time somewhere along the way.
Plus, Glenwood wasn’t centrally located to all students either.
Getting to/from 5th Avenue by car or bus will be easier prior to 7:30 than after when commuter traffic increases.
I agree that 5 th avenue shouldn’t be the earliest. I would be for the k-3 schools starting first. And my youngest is in kindergarten so I am saying that as somebody whose child will be impacted. Actually, for the next 2 years I will have a child in each of K-3, 4-5,and middle school .. .
I’m referencing garret goebel’s comment about homework: that some but not all k-3 kids have more than an hour of homework per night. Is this a teacher-specific problem and not one really affected by district-wide changes in the school day or are more parents than I realize seeing huge homework loads in the elementary schools??My fourth grader hasn’t had more than five minutes of homework in about six weeks and I’ve been a little worried it isn’t enough.
The finer details are imortant, but the big picture is – Thank God we are not Dekalb County Schools!(or Atlanta, or Clayton, or…….)
Agreed WW! Dekalb is sucking wind hard right now.
And agree with the other posts that the issue was not communicated effectively,which is a pattern in CSD where sweeping changes are under consideration. Garrett, as always, your posts are informative and professional. Thanks for all the research. I voted for you and wish you were on the board!
I’d be willing to organize a 4/5 academy private vanpool for Glennwood Estates/Forkner/Church St area. Wonder if CSD would subsidize?
ODarkThirty- i have to disagree with you on Glennwood not being central. Check your map. From the farthest home on the northside of Decatur the drive is roughly 3.75 miles to 5th Ave. The drive from the farthest south corner of the city to Glennwood was only 1.76 miles which is pretty average though obviously still skewed to northside. But hey, southside has the luxury of having both the middle school and high school nearby so it was a wash in my mind.
I agree that Glennwood is much more central than Fifth Avenue as the crow flies but what makes the idea of “central” difficult in Decatur is the darn railroad tracks. Nothing is central to you if you have to wait at the tracks intersections which are problematic or go around the edges of the city to avoid the tracks. So anything north of the tracks doesn’t feel that central to southsiders and vice versa. Once Fifth Avenue opens, a majority (5/8) of our schools, and 3/4 of our “cross-city” (vs neighborhood) schools will be on the southside. So the northside is due when we open the next school….!
Just checked this, and I don’t think it’s quite right. From the corner of 2nd and Northern Ave. (just about the far SW corner of Decatur) is 2.5 miles to Glennwood, and from the corner of Sycamore and Forkner (pretty much NE corner) to 5th Ave. school is 3.0 miles, according to Google maps. Not that it makes a big difference or anything. Neither school is centrally located, and while that’s a minus, I think having the 4/5 academy at %th Ave. is better than siting it next to Renfroe.
Not that it matters, but my google maps puts my house 3.2 miles from 5th Ave. any of the three different ways to get there. From Sycamore/Forkner, I’m getting 3.3, 3.5, and 4 miles from 5th Ave. depending on the route.
Centrality is not a relative issue. Glennwood, according to every map in the world, will always be more centrally within the city of Decatur than Fifth Avenue. Example: Northwest Decatur, Willow Lane to Fifth Avenue, 4.03 miles. Enough said. Sorry, TOK, but this fallacy is a pet peeve of mine.
So will this be discussed tonight at the meeting? Dr. Edwards letter says that it is tabled for now. Just wondering how important it is to go to tonight’s meeting?
Hmm, stating the obvious here, but if you care about your school system it’s important to go no matter what is being discussed, at least now and then. No one can make all the board meetings but staying in the loop is obviously very important.
Ok, I just answered my own question, by looking at the agenda. No action, but it looks like it will be discussed.
If you care strongly, I wouldn’t miss a chance to speak before the Board. I can have huge impact.
I am glad you can have such a huge impact, karass. Are you practicing “The Secret”?
Whoops. I meant “It”, not “I”. Hypothetically one can have huge impact by speaking there. Personally, I haven’t even decided which of my children I want to sacrifice to the gods of early start times.
Which one has the most potential to pay for a good nursing home?
I don’t think you need to sacrifice either child. If the superintendent narrows her focus to the one major problem that is causing the need to change the start times (start times that people currently like), a better solution is out there.
We can argue centrality all day (just like counting baby strollers:), so let me clarify my point. How about…. don’t start any school at 7:30. That would be my request. End school later.
We abandoned the neighborhood schools for “neighborhoods with schools” in Decatur seven years ago.
The fact is that 5th Avenue sits almost on the Atlanta city line. I never thuoght it was a good choice for a citywide school. Same goes for Westchester. It was a great neighborhood school, but would not have been a good choice for the 4/5.
Please attend the meeting & speak up. If not Dr. Edwards will continue making decisions in a vacuum. She’s listening now because she got caught trying to sneak in a HUGE change.
AMEN!!!!
A timely email from Accomplished Teacher by SmartBrief just arrived in my inbox.
Schools weigh the benefits of more classroom time
Educators note that the quality of the hours students spend in class is as important as the quantity.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-school-year-20110307,0,5302597.story
There is a portion of time set aside for public comment during every school board meeting. The board will not respond to your comments, but tonight is still a good time to voice your concerns.
Well? How’d the meeting go, everyone? Anybody care to report back?
Patch did a good job live-blogging the meeting.
http://decatur.patch.com/articles/live-blogging-coverage-of-decatur-school-system-board-meeting
Sounds like about 10 parents had a chance to speak up during the 30 minute public comment portion. The Superintendent said repeatedly that she was listening, but that this was an administrative decision.
Hmm. Well, reads to me like she may be willing to consider parents’ input (didn’t she say she wouldn’t make a final decision until after Spring break?), but her overarching point was basically was that whatever decision she makes is gonna be the decision she makes, so people best be ready to accept it & move on. I’m very curious how this will play out, even though I have no offspring in the CSD system.
Oh, and looks like Patch did a great job of the play-by-play!
“Wilson says this about recess. “We want to make sure kids are active and playing but is that something that needs to happen between school and home and how do we do that and meet the testing requirements? We need to talk about it and come to some agreement about it.” She also adds that the athletic schedule is demanding and the teams go on I-85 a lot. She says when you push it back, the athletic teams will not get there on time or they will have to leave instruction early”
She doesn’t understand that recess is the key to better attention and better test scores. Also, FYI, there will be no CRCT in grades 1 and 2 this year… and probably not in years to come unless there is a big economic turn around for GA. Re the sports teams… not buying it. They can move games up 15 minutes. There are a ton of other schools in ATL that dismiss later than 3:30.
The other thing about sports teams is that they only affect a small proportion of students at any one time. That doesn’t mean that my family isn’t a big supporter of CSD sports, we are and we have the Booster Club card to prove it. But the budget has led to cutting some middle school and ninth grade teams and there’s no intramural sports so fewer kids are served by the sports program than used to be. Again, I don’t want to take anything away from the current sports program–it needs more funding and community support, not less–but it can’t drive the school schedules.
It was a good meeting, but I just wanted to clarify – there’s no set time limit for the public comments (other than five minutes each). I’ve been at board meetings in years past that went until close to midnight, so I just wanted to make sure people know that there’s no set “30 minute” public comment section; there just only happened to be about 10 people who signed up to speak last night. And you can comment on anything regarding the school system, not just what’s on the agenda. The board does a fantastic job of making time for every voice to be heard and often, though they’re not required, they respond in their comments section of the meeting. Some school systems you have to sign up weeks in advance to speak but in our small system you can just show and speak! I get frustrated when people get angry about one topic or another and talk about voting out board members…but I know some of those people don’t come to the board meetings to hear how the board members come to their decisions. I am thrilled to have Julie Rhame as our representative; I have always felt that she listens and responds. By the way, she mentioned last night that she has received a barrage of emails and that she was able to respond to the first few individually, but wanted everyone to know that she reads every single one.
Thanks for the clarification Amy. My bad.
http://www.csdecatur.net/districtnews/I04EBB9C6.1/Length%20of%20Day%20Fast%20Facts.pdf
This information is wrong. I checked the website for Cobb County Schools and have yet to find an elementary school that goes more than 6.5 hours…. many are less. Most start around 7:50 and end around 2:10 to 2:30. DeKalb seems about right. Still working on fact checking the other districts.
I work for Dekalb and at my 2 elementary schools, I think the official hours are 7:30-2:30, but announcements and formal instruction aren’t until 8 and dismissal starts shortly after 2 and is done by 2:30. So by that standard, there are probably only 6 to 6.5 hours of instruction. It would be like saying Winnona Park’s hours are 8-3 because dismissal is done at 3 and they want students there before 8 .
Amazing how CSD’s factual “mistakes” always seem to work in the favor of some decision admins are making that they know will be controversial. Let us know if the rest is “accurate.”
I also noted that the document specifically cites Morningside Elementary as 7 hours but its schedule is 30 minutes longer than most other Atlanta Public Schools Elementary schools because it is part of an “Extended Day” program. I checked Lin Elementary and it is 8-2:30. Cobb is definitely not 7 hours as this document shows:
http://www.cobbk12.org/generalinfo/calendars/2010-11/2010-2011_SchoolStartTimes.pdf
Many of you are missing the real problem here. The problem is not that school might start thirty minutes earlier for our children. The problem is that our superintendent believes this is and should be an “administrative decision” and not a policy decision, and should not be presented for board approval (and we are represented by the board members).
It bothers me that a change of this magnitude does not require board approval–regardless of what the charter or the law says.
And her explicit offers last night to coordinate listening sessions and meetings with parents to discuss our options are an afterthought–her original intention was to make this decision and “let us know.”
I also think the busing “puzzle” is probably beyond the scope and ability of most members of the administration. Get an engineer, a bunch of maps, and a few hours and I guarantee someone can come up with a solution that works for most everyone.
Never posted here — but do want to speak for the parents at two schools in CSD who pick up their children as walkers every day: 1. everyone I have polled was personally insulted by the tone of Dr. Edwards letter 2. we all agreed most professionals in her position would have the letter copy edited before distribution 3. as supporters of public education we all are now considering our options and finally — she ought to heed the warning signs emanating from Cobb. The parents in that district are so fed up they are complaining to SACS. Instead of complaining on these blogs, we ought to organize and start taking some action. Complaining to her, her overpaid staff, principals, and SLT reps obviously will get us nowhere. I learned from our SLT rep that the district must decide where to cut $750K from the budget. Instead of what the administration has suggested for chopping, Spanish, I suggest they freeze their own salaries (administration), cut one admin. support position (above 80K), and ask parents to fund field trips. She ought to be glad she has parents who care.